Life begins at....?

[Kalidas]

... similar to sedation. In fact, the hormones present in the fetus that break down once respiration starts are sedatives.

Again sedation does not equate to a COMPLETE lack of awareness. It has been proven MANY time over that stresses posed on the unborn fetus from outside stimuli have RESOUNDING effects on their development and temperament. I am not talking biology because your biology can be effected without awareness. I'm talking about the psychology CAN is IS effected by outside sources like yelling,singing,talking,etc etc etc. These effects start to manifest during the second trimester and REALLY show up in the third trimester as the brain develops.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Again sedation does not equate to a COMPLETE lack of awareness. It has been proven MANY time over that stresses posed on the unborn fetus from outside stimuli have RESOUNDING effects on their development and temperament. I am not talking biology because your biology can be effected without awareness. I'm talking about the psychology CAN is IS effected by outside sources like yelling,singing,talking,etc etc etc. These effects start to manifest during the second trimester and REALLY show up in the third trimester as the brain develops.

Do you have any support for your position, or is your use of ALL CAPS supposed to be an argument?

 

[Kalidas]

Do you have any support for your position, or is your use of ALL CAPS supposed to be an argument?

Sorry I'am on a caps happy day lol. Don't take it seriously
Most of my knowledge on the subject is what is read and my notes taken in my college courses. So I will just have to stick with random sources online until I can try and get something betters. (Like maybe my text books or accounts from professors)

Mind your language! Babies listen to and REMEMBER words they hear in the womb | Mail Online

When Does a Baby in the Womb Hear Sounds? | Motherhood - ModernMom

Sign in to read: If mum is happy and you know it, wave your fetal arms - life - 16 March 2010 - New Scientist

Now I detest random internet searches so here are some academic journals

Kightley R
Affiliation:
Senior Lecturer Midwifery, Department of Midwifery, School of Health and Social Care, Oxford Brookes University
Source:
British Journal of Midwifery (BR J MIDWIFERY), 2007 Jan; 15 (1): 8, 10-1. (21 ref)


Prenatal maternal stress programs infant stress regulation.
Images
Chart Chart Chart Graph Graph
Go to all 9 images >>
Authors:
Davis, Elysia Poggi1,2
Glynn, Laura M.1,3
Waffarn, Feizal2
Sandman, Curt A.1
Source:
Journal of Child Psychology & Psychiatry. Feb2011, Vol. 52 Issue 2, p119-129. 11p. 3 Charts, 6 Graphs.

Authors:
Field, Tiffany1 [email protected]
Diego, Miguel1
Hernandez-Reif, Maria1
Schanberg, Saul2
Kuhn, Cynthia2
Yando, Regina3
Bendell, Debra4
Source:
Depression & Anxiety (1091-4269). 2003, Vol. 17 Issue 3, p140-151. 12p. 8 Charts.
Swartz, Nico P.1 [email protected]
Jonas, Obonye1
Source:
Review of European Studies. Dec2012, Vol. 4 Issue 5, p157-166. 10p.
Document Type:
Article
Subject Terms:
*METAPHYSICS
*COGNITION -- Physiological aspects
*ABORTION -- Law & legislation
*PREGNANCY -- Trimester, Second
*FETAL death
*FETUS -- Growth
*RIGHT of privacy

Now I have an idea of what will be said. But Kalidas this is only brought on by the effects of chemicals in the babies brains that cause these responses! Correct and what pray tell me are thoughts in OUR brains but chemicals causing us to react to certain situations? These "reactions" we grow up with that make us who we are begins in these early stages of life. As soon as the brain is developing it begins to learn,react,and "do its thing". Yes it is true the baby has little to NO choice what it takes in (mostly the mommy decides this) BUT the same can be applied to children because children do not become "self aware" until later in life. Until then they react entirely on instinct, parental reaction,genes,their pre natal environment, and stimuli. Yet no one here will claim that they are "not people" just because their awareness is not yet fully functioning.

My point is "awareness" at its MOST rudimentary basic of basics begins as the brain develops more. Just because the baby has no choice in what it is subjected to and how its brain decides to react to said stimuli has no barring on its "lack of awareness". you and I have little choice in what we are subjected too and how out brain decides to react, does that make us any less a "person"?

 

[Me Myself]

And what does that have to do with the discussion?

It would be an interesting data, though I ve found that at least here, most females are pro life, maybe even more than males.

Some statistics I ve seen of places of US showed that the percentage of male and female prolifers is actually similar or even slightly more elevated in the female front.

Then again I am lazy to look for that rit now

 

[Mycroft]

No poll option for 40. Fail.

 

[adi2d]

Life begins when you can tell Mrs Grundy to go fly a kite

 

[Caladan]

I see at least one member above got it right (Quatermass).
However I'd slightly adjust the time frame. I believe life begins when you're 30!
By the time you're 40, one could say that you are living the life!

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

And what does that have to do with the discussion?

This appears in 'General Debates' and therefore is a debate and not a discussion....am I right?

As I said, it was an observation and 'what it has to do with anything' all depends on what it has to do with anything on an individual basis...to some, nothing...to others, something.

 

[Sunstone]

Life began at least once, billions of years ago, and has passed on, generation after generation, since then.

 

[freethinker44]

This appears in 'General Debates' and therefore is a debate and not a discussion....am I right?

As I said, it was an observation and 'what it has to do with anything' all depends on what it has to do with anything on an individual basis...to some, nothing...to others, something.

I know exactly what you were trying point out, but this discussion isn't about women's rights or abortion. Let's see if we can separate this topic from politics and see if we can come to an informed decision based on biology and philosophy.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I know exactly what you were trying point out, but this discussion isn't about women's rights or abortion.

Indeed, since whether the fetus is a person is irrelevant to whether a pregnant woman should have the same right to bodily security as everyone else.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

I know exactly what you were trying point out, but this discussion isn't about women's rights or abortion. Let's see if we can separate this topic from politics and see if we can come to an informed decision based on biology and philosophy.

Really? All I was trying to point out, is that those who have either had children or capable of having them, have an entirely different view on the matter because they have 'been there' and this was all I was trying to say...nothing to do with religion or politics whatsoever...just a 'biological observation'.

 

[freethinker44]

Really? All I was trying to point out, is that those who have either had children or capable of having them, have an entirely different view on the matter because they have 'been there' and this was all I was trying to say...nothing to do with religion or politics whatsoever...just a 'biological observation'.

Well, either way your observation was wrong. There are only, maybe 4 or 5 females choosing birth or later as a poll option, 10 people in total so it is split even for male and female for birth or later. Quite a bit more people, and more than 4 females voted viability or earlier, looks like 4 voted for conception, so at a minimum it would suggest women are split between birth and conception but given that viability or earlier is favored about 3 to 1 we can probably safely say there are more males and females who believe human life begins at viability or earlier.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

It is wrong now, but not at the time I posted that. Human beings have a natural tendency to 'prove others wrong' by deliberately voting to the contrary.

The number of times I use this to my psychological advantage is phenomenal...people are so predictable...

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Well, either way your observation was wrong. There are only, maybe 4 or 5 females choosing birth or later as a poll option, 10 people in total so it is split even for male and female for birth or later. Quite a bit more people, and more than 4 females voted viability or earlier, looks like 4 voted for conception, so at a minimum it would suggest women are split between birth and conception but given that viability or earlier is favored about 3 to 1 we can probably safely say there are more males and females who believe human life begins at viability or earlier.

I noticed you said "viability" - why? What could possibly confer personhood at the point of viability?

 

[McBell]

It is wrong now, but not at the time I posted that. Human beings have a natural tendency to 'prove others wrong' by deliberately voting to the contrary.

The number of times I use this to my psychological advantage is phenomenal...people are so predictable...

Are you are saying that all polls, elections, basically anything that relies upon Human Beings voting are the exact opposite of the results?

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

Not at all.

I am saying I should have let this go a while longer before making a 'judgment call'.

 

[freethinker44]

I noticed you said "viability" - why? What could possibly confer personhood at the point of viability?

Because that's when they have the ability to survive outside of the womb. If it can survive on its own it is a separate entity whether it is in the womb or not.

 

[freethinker44]

It is wrong now, but not at the time I posted that. Human beings have a natural tendency to 'prove others wrong' by deliberately voting to the contrary.

The number of times I use this to my psychological advantage is phenomenal...people are so predictable...

Right.... :sarcastic

 

[McBell]

Not at all.

I am saying I should have let this go a while longer before making a 'judgment call'.

Fair enough.