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Life From Dirt?

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
My comments were intended for @YoursTrue , because I knew she’d understand it.

You said, I’m “ignoring all evidence”.
That’s rich, because you only have one line of evidence: some living creatures have the same genes.

Most scientists who see these same genes in other organisms automatically jump to the conclusion, “Oh, because these organisms ‘share’ the same genes, it must mean they are related!”

It eludes them, that a Designer could simply have duplicated them in the origination of such unrelated species. And they then stay within their “kinds.”


Honestly, sharing the same genetic structure, could just as well be evidence that all Families(?) / Orders(?) of creatures were designed by one Creator, using the same genetic DNA blueprint! And they diversified from there.

The Cambrian Explosion and the Fossil record both tend to support this conclusion, whether you deny it or not.

But I know that you have a lot of faith in the creative power of ToE.
There are two ideas here that conflict with one another.
One is that life and everything in the universe, including the universe, came about by -- "natural"(?) circumstances (I use the term 'natural circumstances' reluctantly because then you have to figure what IS natural? but anyway, going on ...) with no intelligent direction.
The second idea conflicting with that theory (some would argue that evolution is really NOT a theory any more) is that there IS a divine creator who is behind the forces that make up life AND the universe.
Now while believers in evolution without the need of an intelligent designer may argue about it, there IS no evidence to support the natural, kind of by-itself idea of things happening kind of over billions of years "just like that." "Scientists" are still projecting their ideas as to how it happened. They don't KNOW.
Now I expect believers in evolution without the needed existence of God will argue with that.
 
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Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I'm not going to argue this with you. National Geographic says that sediment can consist of lava, and lava is molten rock that flows.
And they are wrong. Any geologist would know this. Do you need other sources?


I could go on. This is irritating, and it also appears that you are trying to be dishonest since this rather small error of yours does not make any difference. Why do this?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
What "observation" shows that lava is NOT sediment?
Lava is liquid magma that has solidified. It is not a material that has been eroded and redeposited. That is what sediments are.


As I said, you could make a rock out of eroded and redeposited pieces of lave, but that would no longer qualify as being "lave. The process of erosion will cause some chemical changes to the surfaces of the materials. It will also have a different physical structure than layer of lava. One could easily tell the difference between the two.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
There are two ideas here that conflict with one another.
One is that life and everything in the universe, including the universe, came about by -- "natural"(?) circumstances (I use the term 'natural circumstances' reluctantly because then you have to figure what IS natural? but anyway, going on ...) with no intelligent direction.
The second idea conflicting with that theory (some would argue that evolution is really NOT a theory any more) is that there IS a divine creator who is behind the forces that make up life AND the universe.
Now while believers in evolution without the need of an intelligent designer may argue about it, there IS no evidence to support the natural, kind of by-itself idea of things happening kind of over billions of years "just like that." "Scientists" are still projecting their ideas as to how it happened. They don't KNOW.
Now I expect believers in evolution without the needed existence of God will argue with that.
"Natural" would simply be without any god magic. Does a rock need guidance by a god when it falls? There is no evidence of such. It appears that you may be trying to shift the burden of proof. Ask a physicist why a rock falls the way it does and they could explain it. Ask a theist that claims that "God did it" how they know that and I can guarantee you that that person will not have a proper explanation.

You can't say "You did not prove that God did not do it". That is a shifting of the burden of proof. If someone claims that God did it they have the burden of proof for their claim. And theists never come close to meeting that burden of proof.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
And they are wrong. Any geologist would know this. Do you need other sources?


I could go on. This is irritating, and it also appears that you are trying to be dishonest since this rather small error of yours does not make any difference. Why do this?
First of all and lastly, according to the definitions you provide, they are not wrong. Lava is molten rock. It is... sediment.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
"Natural" would simply be without any god magic. Does a rock need guidance by a god when it falls? There is no evidence of such. It appears that you may be trying to shift the burden of proof. Ask a physicist why a rock falls the way it does and they could explain it. Ask a theist that claims that "God did it" how they know that and I can guarantee you that that person will not have a proper explanation.

You can't say "You did not prove that God did not do it". That is a shifting of the burden of proof. If someone claims that God did it they have the burden of proof for their claim. And theists never come close to meeting that burden of proof.
I am saying you have no evidence to show that the universe came about by natural circumstances.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
"Natural" would simply be without any god magic. Does a rock need guidance by a god when it falls? There is no evidence of such. It appears that you may be trying to shift the burden of proof. Ask a physicist why a rock falls the way it does and they could explain it. Ask a theist that claims that "God did it" how they know that and I can guarantee you that that person will not have a proper explanation.

You can't say "You did not prove that God did not do it". That is a shifting of the burden of proof. If someone claims that God did it they have the burden of proof for their claim. And theists never come close to meeting that burden of proof.
Again a false question. Gravity is something you cannot show evidence for the theory of gravity coming about. Try not to subterfuge.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Please say why you keep saying that molten rock is not sediment.
Because of the definition of sediment that I posted and supported with other sources. Here is the definition again:

"Sediment is a naturally occurring material that is broken down by processes of weathering and erosion, and is subsequently transported by the action of wind, water, or ice or by the force of gravity acting on the particles."

How would lava fit into that? Igneous rock starts as magma. Lava is just magma (molten rock) at the surface. It has not been weathered. It has not been broken down.

National Geographic's error may have arisen from people sometimes calling solidified volcanic magma "lava". Abd that material can be weathered and broken into pieces and then be in the form of sediment. But no one in geology would call that "lava". Hawaii has quite a few black sand beaches. The sediment is weathered and broken up "lava". But once again, no one calls it that in geology.


Properly defining the terms that one uses is very important in the sciences to prevent confusion.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I didn’t say the evidence is dependent on the whim of God. Evidence of a Creator is obvious…

Obviously it's not "obvious" or we wouldn't be having this discussion.

“Atheism is so senseless. When I look at the solar system, I see the earth at the right distance from the sun to receive the proper amounts of heat and light. This did not happen by chance.”

—Isaac Newton

Argument from ignorance.
There is nothing special about the orbit of the earth that requires "special" explanation.

And by now, we have found LOADS of planets in that very same orbit in the goldilocks zone. And we have only researched a pixel of the night sky in the big scheme of things. Rocky planets in the goldilock zone orbit really aren't that special or rare.

When planets form and orbit a star, they ARE going to end up at a certain distance of said star. Them being at distance X or distance Y, requires no special explanation.

If Newton were alive today, he'ld realize the foolishness of his statement.


“For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. “
Romans 1:20-21
I don't care for preaching.


I would say further evidence is dependent on God’s purpose in creating human beings to seek and relate to Him in a personal way. God is a Personal Spiritual Being, not a scientific fact to be discovered.
More preaching

I don’t complain about starting from the foundation point of acknowledging a Creator, because anything otherwise is foolishness.

IOW, you start from an assumed conclusion.
Exactly like I said. You just acknowledged the point I was making.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Does the evidence show(?) -- I guess the expression show is better than prove -- that evolution is true??

yes.

Àfter you look at that question, you talk about differences in genetics between humans and chimpanzees, gorillas, etc.? Why does that prove/show/demonstrate evolution?

It shows they are related through a common ancestor.
How genetics works and how it changes from one generation to the next, demonstrates the mechanism of how that occurs. AKA evolution.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
My comments were intended for @YoursTrue , because I knew she’d understand it.

Likely because she has shown herself to be extremely stubborn when it comes to this particular subject.
I can't count the amount of times I had to inform her that her argument of "...but they remain lions!!!" or similar is based in ignorance of how the process actually works.

You said, I’m “ignoring all evidence”.

I said that you are ignoring all evidence that the lines you draw are abritrary.
Not all evidence, full stop. Seems like you ironically ignored the italic part.

That’s rich, because you only have one line of evidence: some living creatures have the same genes.
That isn't true at all.
First, ALL species share genes in a nested hierarchy. Every lineage thus makes up for its OWN line of evidence. That's millions of lines of evidence right there.
And that's just comparative genomics.
That's not even considering comparative anatomy, geographic distribution of species, the fossil record, etc.

So really, there are, quite literally, billions of independnt lines of evidence that ALL converge on the same answer.

Most scientists who see these same genes in other organisms automatically jump to the conclusion, “Oh, because these organisms ‘share’ the same genes, it must mean they are related!”

No. Once again, you are ignoring the PATTERN of genetic matches.
It's the PATTERN of genetic matches here that is important.
If humans would have genes for feathers as we find in birds for example, then that would not be evidence for evolution.
It would in fact be evidence AGAINST evolution. Because it wouldn't fit the PATTERN that evolution requires (nested hierarchies).

So once again: it's not just the sharing of DNA. It's the PATTERN of how they are shared.

It eludes them, that a Designer could simply have duplicated them in the origination of such unrelated species. And they then stay within their “kinds.”

If that were the case, then we wouldn't expect them to fall in a nested hierarchy.
Only evolutionary processes explain nested hierarchies.

Human engineers for example will use the same components in different product lines. So there will be matches in design between say an opel astra and an opel corsa. But these matches will NOT fit a nested hierarchy.

NO engineer or product designer would design product lines with nested hierarchies because it is inefficient and a waste of resources.
Evolution though, has no other option. It can only go forward with modified versions of what exists in the present. That is what creates the nested hierarchy.

This is why even though we are "naked" apes, we still have goosebumps.
This is why even though we are bipedal, our spine isn't really fit for bipedalism since it's a modified version of a spine meant for walking on all 4s. This is why 70% of people deal with lower backpains at some point in their lives.
This is why we have nerves that really only need to travel an inch or two, but instead take incredibly long detours because they happen to be wrapped around our aorta due to how they initially evolved 300 million years ago.
This is why our eyes have a blind spot.
etc etc etc


If your god designed everything in this way, then your god went OUT OF HIS WAY to make it look as if it was the result of a natural process.

Honestly, sharing the same genetic structure, could just as well be evidence that all Families(?) / Orders(?) of creatures were designed by one Creator, using the same genetic DNA blueprint! And they diversified from there.

Only if you assume that creator to be deceptive and went out of his way to make it look as if that is not at all what happened and that instead everything evolved from a common ancestor.


The Cambrian Explosion and the Fossil record both tend to support this conclusion, whether you deny it or not.

wtf????

There were no mammals during the cambrian explosion, so you just contradicted your own nonsense.

But I know that you have a lot of faith in the creative power of ToE.
No faith needed when you have evidence.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
In genetics, it's the exact nature of the differences, as much as the similarities, that's important, as well as non-functional, mutated genes and the exact differences between those. There is also statistical evidence from the differences.

As a small example, humans still have a mutated version of a gene for making egg yoke, that is left over from our egg laying ancestors.
So, your counter argument is based on presumed “junk DNA”, huh?
Well, ENCODE is burying those ideas!

Come on, science! It will keep finding more gaps for the ToE, as an all-encompassing explanation, to overcome.


Regarding your specific non-functional “mutated egg-yolk gene”:

 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
So, your counter argument is based on presumed “junk DNA”, huh?
Well, ENCODE is burying those ideas!

Come on, science! It will keep finding more gaps for the ToE, as an all-encompassing explanation, to overcome.


Regarding your specific non-functional “mutated egg-yolk gene”:

No, creationists simply do not understand what ENCODE shows,

And of course science will keep finding more "gaps". Of course that is just a strawman argument at best. Every new fossil find does not eliminate a "gap" if fills in one point in between. But each so called gap is smaller than the previous one. Please do not use that dishonest argument anymore. People are onto it. To use it you have to admit that the so called gaps keep getting smaller and smaller and the evidence always supports the theory of evolution.

And "Evolution News" is a lying creationist site. If you cannot find a valid source that makes that claim you can be very sure that it is wrong.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
And they are wrong. Any geologist would know this. Do you need other sources?


I could go on. This is irritating, and it also appears that you are trying to be dishonest since this rather small error of yours does not make any difference. Why do this?
Does any of that say that lava is not sediment? Maybe I missed it, perhaps you can point it out, if you're honestly discussing this Thank you. You might as well figure what lava is. When you do, get back to me, thanks. If you do not define lava adequately, I can figure you are not being honest.
 
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