Life Without Belief

[mikkel_the_dane]

So i can weigh, measured and observe. As other people also independently can.

That is not all of the world. And you still haven't explain how you know. You have only claimed that you know.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Love is a feeling. A physiological process, a fact of various biochemical changes in our system. These others perfection, wonder, truth are indeed concepts which IMO require belief. So the question then would be, can we live life without the belief in these concepts?

Sounds to me like you believe in love; and not just as a biological sensation, but also as something which validates your existence. You believe in it’s value, no? You believe it matters?

 

[Nakosis]

Nakosis. Think deeply. Do you really live with no belief whatsoever? Does everything in your life have empirical evidence?

The problem is that this kind of discussion is mostly "against religions". What most atheists do is that they intend to be against religion and be on the opposite side.

Nevertheless, my grandfather owned two ships. I know he is my grandfather because my mother told me he is my grand father. But I dont have any empirical evidence. Well, I have no empirical evidence that she was my mother. God forgive me for saying this, but this is just an example.

But the experience in my life tells me she is my mother. I have no reason to doubt. Is that a belief or is that empirical evidence to something?

Sure I accept I have had certain belief but are they necessary. I was told a past family history. I found out later this history was not true. So there is no guarantee in the truth of what we believe. So do we need them? And would we be better off without them? And thirdly, is it possible to live a life without beliefs?

Is "no reason to doubt" enough to support a belief?

There are times during meditation where what I experience is only now, now past, no future. No belief in anything. Just the acceptance of whatever I feel/experience at this moment. I suspect the idea in Buddhism of "no mind" is one without beliefs.

 

[firedragon]

Sure I accept I have had certain belief but are they necessary. I was told a past family history. I found out later this history was not true. So there is no guarantee in the truth of what we believe. So do we need them? And would we be better off without them? And thirdly, is it possible to live a life without beliefs?

Is "no reason to doubt" enough to support a belief?

There are times during meditation where what I experience is only now, now past, no future. No belief in anything. Just the acceptance of whatever I feel/experience at this moment. I suspect the idea in Buddhism of "no mind" is one without beliefs.

Its like this Nakosis. How do you know if you need them or not? If you say "We need them", is that a belief? Or is that a faith statement? If you say "We dont need them" is that a belief or a faith statement?

How do you know?

And about Buddhism, what do you mean "no mind"?

You spoke of meditation. Do you know about the Paradukkha Dukkitha Bhavana? Is that "no mind"? How about Dhyana? Is that "no mind"?

What about itipiso bhagava samma sambuddho vijja sarana sampanno, sugatho, lokavidhu. Purusa dhamma sarathi sattha????? Is that "no belief"?

 

[Nakosis]

Sounds to me like you believe in love; and not just as a biological sensation, but also as something which validates your existence. You believe in it’s value, no? You believe it matters?

To me, "love", well I suppose the idea of love becomes itself a concept. So sure one can believe in love as a concept.

However love is actually a feeling, or a combination of physiological body reactions. This part does not require belief. We simply feel whatever that experience is. So yes I value the actual physical experience of love but I don't need to believe in the concept to experience it.

 

[Nakosis]

NO I DON'T BELIEVE THAT.

Neither belief nor disbelief guarantees anything.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Neither belief nor disbelief guarantees anything.

Nothing is guaranteed beyond "I think, therefore I exist".

 

[Nakosis]

Its like this Nakosis. How do you know if you need them or not? If you say "We need them", is that a belief? Or is that a faith statement? If you say "We dont need them" is that a belief or a faith statement?

How do you know?

We need belief when we lack experience. The belief helps one to obtain the experience, one which we are not aware of. Until then one would have to believe such an experience exists.

And about Buddhism, what do you mean "no mind"?

You spoke of meditation. Do you know about the Paradukkha Dukkitha Bhavana? Is that "no mind"? How about Dhyana? Is that "no mind"?

What about itipiso bhagava samma sambuddho vijja sarana sampanno, sugatho, lokavidhu. Purusa dhamma sarathi sattha????? Is that "no belief"?

No these are beliefs. Beliefs that exist to lead one to the experience of Mushin-no mind. The idea being that all concepts, even the concept of self is let go. Without the concepts there is nothing to believe in. The mind has a natural flow. Beliefs/concepts interrupt this flow. Even the beliefs of Buddhism interrupt this flow and have to eventually be let go.

For me I can experience this briefly. I think the ideal would be to enter this state permanently.

 

[Nakosis]

Belief is a cognitive stance in short. E.g. you have a belief/cognitive stance on what a definition is. Or what is good or bad for you. Or what the world is.

Like self aware activity? IOW we take a stance on being aware of something?

I think self awareness is a concept but the fact of awareness isn't.

 

[firedragon]

We need belief when we lack experience. The belief helps one to obtain the experience, one which we are not aware of. Until then one would have to believe such an experience exists.

That itself is a faith statement. Your belief.

No these are beliefs. Beliefs that exist to lead one to the experience of Mushin-no mind. The idea being that all concepts, even the concept of self is let go. Without the concepts there is nothing to believe in. The mind has a natural flow. Beliefs/concepts interrupt this flow. Even the beliefs of Buddhism interrupt this flow and have to eventually be let go.

For me I can experience this briefly. I think the ideal would be to enter this state permanently.

Nakosis. Mushin is a teaching in meditation and martial arts. Its not Buddhism. Buddhists practice it in meditation, but its not "buddhism". And Mushin is not "no mind". that's how you perceive it. Mushin is a samurai, karate idea of being with out anger, frustration, too much thinking of the opponent, etc etc. I really dont why you brought this up. If you think this is Buddhism, please show it in the Tipitaka. Seriously. Go to the Tipitaka, and find the reference.

Anyway you ignored everything I said. So naturally I will withdraw from this conversation.

Cheers.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Like self aware activity? IOW we take a stance on being aware of something?

I think self awareness is a concept but the fact of awareness isn't.

Well, here is how I see it. You are flow of inputs. The moment you accept one of them and act on it, you have a belief. Now whether that the subconscious is a form of beliefs up for grabs, but when you act, you believe in some sense. At least some of the time.

 

[1213]

Do you think it is possible to live without any beliefs what so ever?
...

I don't believe so. To hold anything as truth or a fact, requires that person believes it is so and that something really proves it.

 

[Nakosis]

Well, here is how I see it. You are flow of inputs. The moment you accept one of them and act on it, you have a belief. Now whether that the subconscious is a form of beliefs up for grabs, but when you act, you believe in some sense. At least some of the time.

I agree that this is the usually process. There are times though when there is no "you". Therefore I see "you" or the self as an illusion.
It is not necessary to believe in breathing to breath. When learning to play a musical instrument, the goal is to get to the point where you no longer have to believe you can play but to simply play.

We start out life ignorant of everything so everything requires belief. The idea or ideal is to act without the necessity of belief.

 

[RestlessSoul]

I have read that the universe is expanding, and that the rate of expansion is slowing. I have also read that trillions of almost undetectable particles called neutrinos, the debris of exploding supernovas, are continually passing through our bodies and through our earth. All this and much more besides, I have no way of verifying, but I choose to believe the scientists who have revealed these discoveries.

 

[Nakosis]

I don't believe so. To hold anything as truth or a fact, requires that person believes it is so and that something really proves it.

Certainly, truth is a concept and facts are based on these concepts of truth. One would need to go through life without these concepts. To make a claim about anything requires belief. I suspect it would be very difficult to have any kind of conversation.

 

[PureX]

Do you think it is possible to live without any beliefs what so ever?

Yes, but not without making choices based on assumed probability, and not without the action of faith. In fact, I think we humans would do far better in life if we 'believed' a whole lot less than we do.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Do you think it is possible to live without any beliefs what so ever?

Nope.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Do you think it is possible to live without any beliefs what so ever?

“One life is all we have and we live it as we believe in living it. But to sacrifice what you are and to live without belief, that is a fate more terrible than dying.” Joan of Arc

No!

 

[Fool]

Do you think it is possible to live without any beliefs what so ever?

“One life is all we have and we live it as we believe in living it. But to sacrifice what you are and to live without belief, that is a fate more terrible than dying.” Joan of Arc

belief is necessary in order to test against reality.

children practice the scientific method without knowing what it's called.

the problem arises when children refuse to grow up, stop questioning reality, and try to force reality into belief. physical maturity is not always 1 to 1 with mental/spiritual/psychological maturity.

everyone wants to be loved but not everyone is loving; so those who don't believe what is good enough for the goose is good enough for a gander will eventually eat crow.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I believe that atheists too believe that life has a value that transcends the mere existence.

If life were meaningless, what is the point of making children?
Children who will live a life as meaningless as their parents '?

That would depend on the atheist, I suspect.