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Little confused...Are Jews allowed to drink alcohol or is it a sin?

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Thank you for your explanation.

No problem.

I do have a question for you. When you say handed down or learned by previous generations, does this mean that they are constantly revising according to times?

No. For Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews, the mitzvoth are not revised according to the times. What does happen, due to the technology/environment/better understanding from scientific research, is we use the principles supplied from the written and oral Torah to address the situation as it stands.

For example, with the advent of industrial electricity Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jewish rabbis/community leaders/engineers/scientists came together to understand how the performance of certain mizvoth were affected by the use or industrial electricity. This results in a judicial decision for Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jewish communities.

Do you believe that the first five books in the Bible as the Torah or translated words of man?

The Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jewish position is the following:
  1. The Torah is product of the mass revalation that the Israeli people had at Mount from Hashem, and...
  2. After the above mentioned mass revelation at Mount Sinai, the oral and written Torah were dictated and directed from Hashem to Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses) who then transcribed the written text that was shown to him and taught/instructed the Israeli people concerning the oral Torah. (The statement Torah describing the Hebrew written Torah and the oral Torah which details how to do what is in the written text.)
  3. Both the written Torah (its content and structure) all were dictated from Hashem to Mosheh ben-Amram along with an oral Torah to explain how to perform the mitzvoth and how to make judicial decisions due to changes/advancements. Mosheh ben-Amram was not allowed to add or take away from what he was given by Hashem.
  4. The Torah was given in the language of men. Meaning the the text could have been extremely meta-physical document that only a small few Jews could get benefit from or it could be written in a way that any Jew who know Hebrew could understand the basic foundation and then learn more.
The following may help understand this better:


 

MyM

Well-Known Member
No problem.



No. For Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews, the mitzvoth are not revised according to the times. What does happen, due to the technology/environment/better understanding from scientific research, is we use the principles supplied from the written and oral Torah to address the situation as it stands.

For example, with the advent of industrial electricity Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jewish rabbis/community leaders/engineers/scientists came together to understand how the performance of certain mizvoth were affected by the use or industrial electricity. This results in a judicial decision for Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jewish communities.



The Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jewish position is the following:
  1. The Torah is product of the mass revalation that the Israeli people had at Mount from Hashem, and...
  2. After the above mentioned mass revelation at Mount Sinai, the oral and written Torah were dictated and directed from Hashem to Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses) who then transcribed the written text that was shown to him and taught/instructed the Israeli people concerning the oral Torah. (The statement Torah describing the Hebrew written Torah and the oral Torah which details how to do what is in the written text.)
  3. Both the written Torah (its content and structure) all were dictated from Hashem to Mosheh ben-Amram along with an oral Torah to explain how to perform the mitzvoth and how to make judicial decisions due to changes/advancements. Mosheh ben-Amram was not allowed to add or take away from what he was given by Hashem.
  4. The Torah was given in the language of men. Meaning the the text could have been extremely meta-physical document that only a small few Jews could get benefit from or it could be written in a way that any Jew who know Hebrew could understand the basic foundation and then learn more.
The following may help understand this better:




ty for the videos :) I wish they were a little slower lol explaining and understanding takes time lol so had to keep hittin reverse. But there are a few things I still don't understand, but that is understandable lol (in time)

How far back are your scripts? I think you mentioned way back as like 500 years or so after?
Every Christian I know practically say that the 5 books of the Bible are from "Hashem to Mosheh" (tryin to use the language lol but am no where near it lol)
 

MyM

Well-Known Member
No problem.



No. For Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews, the mitzvoth are not revised according to the times. What does happen, due to the technology/environment/better understanding from scientific research, is we use the principles supplied from the written and oral Torah to address the situation as it stands.

For example, with the advent of industrial electricity Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jewish rabbis/community leaders/engineers/scientists came together to understand how the performance of certain mizvoth were affected by the use or industrial electricity. This results in a judicial decision for Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jewish communities.



The Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jewish position is the following:
  1. The Torah is product of the mass revalation that the Israeli people had at Mount from Hashem, and...
  2. After the above mentioned mass revelation at Mount Sinai, the oral and written Torah were dictated and directed from Hashem to Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses) who then transcribed the written text that was shown to him and taught/instructed the Israeli people concerning the oral Torah. (The statement Torah describing the Hebrew written Torah and the oral Torah which details how to do what is in the written text.)
  3. Both the written Torah (its content and structure) all were dictated from Hashem to Mosheh ben-Amram along with an oral Torah to explain how to perform the mitzvoth and how to make judicial decisions due to changes/advancements. Mosheh ben-Amram was not allowed to add or take away from what he was given by Hashem.
  4. The Torah was given in the language of men. Meaning the the text could have been extremely meta-physical document that only a small few Jews could get benefit from or it could be written in a way that any Jew who know Hebrew could understand the basic foundation and then learn more.
The following may help understand this better:



ok, so what you are sayin is you say you have the written text (Torah) and then you have the oral (like in our Islamic religion-We have Quran and the ahadith-sayings of Mohammad pubh and companions etc. that explain those texts)?
 

MyM

Well-Known Member
Okay. So it works like this.

All things that Torah based Jews do or don't do starts from the Hebrew Torah. This is the foundation of where all Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Judaism begins. The reason is that:
  1. The Torah is product of the mass revalation that the Israeli people had at Mount from Hashem, and...
  2. After the above mentioned mass revelation at Mount Sinai, the oral and written Torah were dictated and directed from Hashem to Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses) who then transcribed the written text that was shown to him and taught/instructed the Israeli people concerning the oral Torah. (The statement Torah describing the Hebrew written Torah and the oral Torah which details how to do what is in the written text.)
View attachment 61149

With that being said, the commands that Hashem gave to the Israeli/Jewish people are called Mitzvoth (מצוות), as well as some other titles but let's stick to this one, and there are 613 mitzvoth that are the foundation for Israel/Jews as a nation, communities within that nation, families, individuals, and even non-Jews who live within a Torah based nation. There are two types of Mitzvoth (תעשה) "things that are to be done" and (לא תעשה) "things not to be done."

Important points:
  1. There are some mitzvoth that are requirements for the entire Israeli nation. (Men, women, and children)
  2. There are some mitzvoth that are requirements for the leaders of the Israeli nation.
  3. There are some mitzvoth that are requirements which are specific to Israelis/Jews who come from certain types of families. (Kohen family, Levi family, etc.)
  4. There are some mitzvoth that are requirements which are specific to men and some that are specific to women.
That all being said, when Hashem gave the Torah there were no explicit prohibitions against the consumption of alchohol for the average ordinary Israeli/Jewish person/citizen. YET, the Torah was not given as a straight forward western style history text. Each, story, word, sentence, command, etc. is considered to have reasons beyond just the plain sense thus it is known to have a developmental purpose behind what an Israeli/Jew is supposed to study, learn, consider, and form conclusions on for the sake of national, communal, and personal development.

For example, in the Torah Israelis who come from families (Kohen/Cohen) that descend from Aharon (Aaron) the brother of Mosheh (Moses) have a certain leadership responsibility which includes various shifts of working in the Temple, when it was standing and active in Jerusalem and before that when it was a portable structure. While working in the Temple it was/will be forbidden for them to perform their duties either drunk, or having consumed a certain level of alchohol or wine. Obviously, since what they are doing is work and they are leaders in the Israeli nation thus they can't be on the job being affected by alchohol.

By like token, any leader of the Israeli/Jewish people is required to not be under the influence of alchohol when they are performing duties of leadership.

By additional like token, there is a concept from the Torah based on both the story of Noach and other situations in Jewish history where excessive amounts of alchohol are considered to have allowed for particular individuals to loosen or do away with their better judgement and then they swayed themselves in the wrong direction.

All of that being stated, there is a mitzvah in the Torah for Jews to do the mitzvoth of the Torah with joy and happiness. For example, the Shabbat (Sabbath), Pesahh (Passover), etc. are all times when Jews are commanded to have joy and happiness. One of the understandings is that the proper amounts of food, community and family togetherness, and wine are a part of this. Yet, I stress everything in life has a proper place and a proper amount. For example, there are some rabbis in Jewish history who have stated that excessive amounts of food is not good and therefore a Jew who is working to keep the Torah correctly would not be served well to eat excessive amounts of food. There are also some rabbis who have stated that doing things that are known to be dangerous or have a high unnecessary risk behind them should also not be done. The same is applied to wine and alchohol.

For example, Jewish men have a requirement to come together in groups of ten or more men and pray three times a day. It is forbidden for a Jewish man to pray after having consumed a certain amount of wine or alchohol. He must wait until the effects wear off and he has rested then he can pray.

Further, because every Jewish man is considered to be the rabbi of his household he has to further consider all of his actions as a "leader" of his household. Additionally, a Torah based Jewish man or woman when outside of their home is considered to be an example of the Torah that they have learned/received from previous generations so there is a level of responsibility that is considered to come along with that and also the understanding that there is a danger posed to all Jews if the outside world will judge us based upon the missteps we make, for whatever reasons we make them.

Thus, there are a number of leaders of the Jewish people who have taught modesty in all things that a Jew does, in all sectors. So, if I need to speak to someone there is a modest Torah based way for me to do it. If I need to correct my children, there is a modest Torah based way for me to do it. If there is a happy Torah based event where there is wine being served, there is a modest Torah based way for me enjoy and have happiness.

The outlook is that everything that exists in reality is good and has a purpose - that purpose being potentially:
  • Using it correctly.
  • Using it at a controlled amount.
  • Using it only in certain circumstances.
  • Using it in limited locations and particular times.
  • Using it during quiet times when there is room to relax and rest.
  • Knowing one's personal limits and not going beyond that limit.
  • Lastly, not using it all. (An example of this is that there are dangerous animals that have a good environmental purpose - but I would not play with them, take them as pets, or go near them. I respect the purpose in the world from a distance.)
All of the above issues have been discussed, debated, established, considered, and put into practice for thousands of years among Torah based Jews. So, I hope that this helps in understanding.

View attachment 61151

wow in the video it says the child reads in Aramaic...I thought this was a dead language?
 

MyM

Well-Known Member
As Harel already mentioned that is the practice of particular groups of European Jews. It is not a practice held by Middle Eastern, African, or Asian Jewish communities.

The following videos may help with some insight on other Jewish communities.

The Spielberg Jewish Film Archive - Music of Yemenite Jews

The Spielberg Jewish Film Archive - Music of Morrocan Jews

The Spielberg Jewish Film Archive - Music of Sephardic Jews


ok, I have another question :)

How come the women were not allowed to read or write or study the books(said in video above so they made their own "songs" but that isn't the religion)? In Islam, women are no different than men when acquiring knowledge. Practicing it as well. So was wondering why women were not allowed?....sorry which brings me to another "movie" Yentl (with Barbara Streisand) She pretended to be a boy to enter into studying. Just wondering why it is like that.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
wow in the video it says the child reads in Aramaic...I thought this was a dead language?

No. Aramac is very much alive. There are some Jews who only know Aramaic as a written, reading, and understood language. There are some Jewish communities that still speak Aramaic. Also, not just among us Jews. There are cultures in the Middle East that still speak Aramaic.

The following videos may help.






 

MyM

Well-Known Member
As Harel already mentioned that is the practice of particular groups of European Jews. It is not a practice held by Middle Eastern, African, or Asian Jewish communities.

The following videos may help with some insight on other Jewish communities.

The Spielberg Jewish Film Archive - Music of Yemenite Jews

The Spielberg Jewish Film Archive - Music of Morrocan Jews

The Spielberg Jewish Film Archive - Music of Sephardic Jews


That is something I didn't know yall had was intermediaries. You worship saints and pray to saints like an intermediary to get to Allah? I thought you prayed straight to him and him alone.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
How far back are your scripts? I think you mentioned way back as like 500 years or so after?

If you mean the actual letters using in ancient Jewish writings. There are Jewish sources that state that when Hashem showed Mosheh ben-Amram what to transcribe it was in the below format.

upload_2022-3-17_13-10-44.png

upload_2022-3-17_13-16-37.png


Some of the Dead Sea which are more than about 2,200 years old are similar to the above script.

There are others sources that state that there were scrolls that were also made in a script more like the below used by the Samaritans.

upload_2022-3-17_13-14-3.png


Some texts from the Dead Sea are also similar to the above.

If you mean what is the oldest surviving Hebrew Torah texts that would be the Dead Sea. They are about 2,300 to 2,300 years old. There are other more complete Hebrew texts of the Torah that are about 1,000 years old. Prior to that there fragments and pieces of once complete texts.
 

MyM

Well-Known Member
As Harel already mentioned that is the practice of particular groups of European Jews. It is not a practice held by Middle Eastern, African, or Asian Jewish communities.

The following videos may help with some insight on other Jewish communities.

The Spielberg Jewish Film Archive - Music of Yemenite Jews

The Spielberg Jewish Film Archive - Music of Morrocan Jews

The Spielberg Jewish Film Archive - Music of Sephardic Jews

I am on the last video :) I saw that they give the "groom" dowry...that is something we don't do in Islam. The groom is supposed to give the women dowry...the less the better in Islam. But many here in UAE, they give thousands upon hundreds of thousands of dirrhams as dowry (mahr)...that is just soooo outrageous, but it happens alll the time.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
That is something I didn't know yall had was intermediaries. You worship saints and pray to saints like an intermediary to get to Allah? I thought you prayed straight to him and him alone.

We don't have intermediaries and we don't worship saints. It is also forbidden for us to worship or pray through anyone to get to Hashem. Some of this is the issue of translations. There are times in English where what was being expressed in Hebrew or Arabic was translated using a western concept. What you may be referencing is something that started up in some places due to long exile. I.e. there were Jewish communities that were influenced by their host societies and they starting mistakingly mixing ideas that had previously been foreign. There were times where rabbis tried to fight this influence but they were not always successful.

What we do have is a concept that comes from the Torah of bringing up in our prayers Avraham, Yitzhaq, and Ya'aqov/Yisrael (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) and others from our ancestors who followed the Torah correctly. Meaning that they are referenced for the merit of their closeness to Hashem. Thus, as their descendents we bring up our connection to them when we pray.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
I am on the last video :) I saw that they give the "groom" dowry...that is something we don't do in Islam. The groom is supposed to give the women dowry...the less the better in Islam. But many here in UAE, they give thousands upon hundreds of thousands of dirrhams as dowry (mahr)...that is just soooo outrageous, but it happens alll the time.

In Jewish culture, when the Torah was given our ancestors at Mount Sinai the method of marriage changed from what had previously existed with Avraham and his children. It required that the man make a legal agreement to marry a woman and pay a specified price. Though I don't like translations for the sake of time, the following is a translation of a text called Mishanh Torah which explains some of the basics.

upload_2022-3-17_13-30-23.png
 

MyM

Well-Known Member
We don't have intermediaries and we don't worship saints. It is also forbidden for us to worship or pray through anyone to get to Hashem. Some of this is the issue of translations. There are times in English where what was being expressed in Hebrew or Arabic was translated using a western concept. What you may be referencing is something that started up in some places due to long exile. I.e. there were Jewish communities that were influenced by their host societies and they starting mistakingly mixing ideas that had previously been foreign. There were times where rabbis tried to fight this influence but they were not always successful.

What we do have is a concept that comes from the Torah of bringing up in our prayers Avraham, Yitzhaq, and Ya'aqov/Yisrael (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) and others from our ancestors who followed the Torah correctly. Meaning that they are referenced for the merit of their closeness to Hashem. Thus, as their descendents we bring up our connection to them when we pray.

I saw in the video that they were. I think it was the Morrocan Jews(the middle video) ...many women martyrs and saw people actually goin there crying and praying to them and they called them saints.

anyways, am glad you go straight to Allah. Praying to anything or anyone is forbidden in Islam. Actually it is in Christianity I know as well, but they don't practice that because they believe in the trinity and the Roman Catholics are always inventing new saints like it's a new car or something.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
That is something I didn't know yall had was intermediaries. You worship saints and pray to saints like an intermediary to get to Allah? I thought you prayed straight to him and him alone.

If you go back to about 6:02 of the video about Spanish Jews it mentions that the rabbis in that area objected to some of the outside influences that were creeping in. Also, remember that the second video was specific to the Moroccoan Jewish community.

One example, Rabbi Mosheh ben-Maimon known as the Rambam wrote that we don't visit the graves we remember the words of Torah of our fellow Jews who have passed away before us.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
I saw in the video that they were. I think it was the Morrocan Jews(the middle video) ...many women martyrs and saw people actually goin there crying and praying to them and they called them saints.[/QUOTE]

Exactly, since the establishment of the state of Israel and Jews from all over the world returning here some of those have reduced in those communities quite a bit. I.e. it was a development due to the harshness of being in exile and not knowing when it was going to end.

anyways, am glad you go straight to Allah.

:)
 

MyM

Well-Known Member
No. Aramac is very much alive. There are some Jews who only know Aramaic as a written, reading, and understood language. There are some Jewish communities that still speak Aramaic. Also, not just among us Jews. There are cultures in the Middle East that still speak Aramaic.

The following videos may help.








That's weird...but maybe (in second video) they don't speak Kurdish, and are not Kurds....maybe they just say they were Kurds because they live there?
 

MyM

Well-Known Member
In Jewish culture, when the Torah was given our ancestors at Mount Sinai the method of marriage changed from what had previously existed with Avraham and his children. It required that the man make a legal agreement to marry a woman and pay a specified price. Though I don't like translations for the sake of time, the following is a translation of a text called Mishanh Torah which explains some of the basics.

View attachment 61156

So you do have the dowry part of the marriage that the man gives it to the women? 3 ways to be married. That's Interesting-never knew that. So if they consummated the "sex" part of it, they are pronounced married automatically or considered just fornicated?

Ok, so if a man and woman commit fornication, what does that mean? What happens to one who commits adultery?
 
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