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Living the lofty philosophy of Hinduism

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
How does reading scripture give you the experience of it? Does reading about the mango give you the experience of the taste of the mango?
They say there are three kinds of learners. The best is when one learns from what happened to other people in a particular situation. The second, when one learns by experiencing something him/herself. The third and the worst kind of learners are those who do not learn even after experiencing. The scriptures provide the first kind of information. What happened to others. If one can learn from that, it is the best.
Are you telling me you live a pure sattvik life and have no cravings for anything?
Is eating meat if it is permitted by one's tradition and having sex in marriage not sattvic? Is trying to earn for 'dharmic purposes', care of family and giving to the needy not sattvic? When does Hinduism say that if you are not living like a renunciate, you are not sattvic? Is enjoying, laughing, having fun, even having a moderate drink, listening to music against the Hindu precepts? Never felt like that. Does that mean I am not a Hindu?
The same is said in the Hindu scriptures themselves, that words are just mere conceptual knowledge and no substitute for true experience. .. or self-knowledge is real knowledge. It goes as far as to call those who think they know it just because they have read tons of scripture fools.
What is 'self-knowledge'? Don't you get it by reading scriptures and thinking over that? Once you have understood the meaning clearly, then you are self-realized. How much of that you will put in action is a different matter. You see, a Sammasam Buddha like Gautama will refuse nirvana to teach people, a Pacceka Buddha will not do that. There are other kinds also.
How many different kinds of Buddhas are there?

Like Some Random said, balance is necessary - 'Ati Sarvatra Varjayeta'.
 
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ratikala

Istha gosthi
Namaskaram ji

I have a burning question regarding actually practising Hinduism in real life. Hinduism is more of a religion of practice than it is of faith or belief.

from reading here(religious forums) I think you will see Hinduism seems to mean different things to different people . but yes it should be a religion of practice , beleif does fit in there somewhere but in all honesty there are many levels of beleif begining with a wish or need to beleive in something and ending in faith which in truth is the strong conviction where upon one has absolutely strong faith in the revealations of shastra , strong enough for that beleif to govern ones actions and dictate all aspects of ones life.


It really doesn't matter what you believe in Hinduism, even if you believe in Brahman, there is no salvation just through belief. I want to extend this further and say it doesn't even matter what scripture you have read, how many scriptures you have read or how many philosophies you have mastered in Hinduism, all of this is just conceptual knowledge, or as Sanata Kumara says to Narada in the Upanishads, all of this is just name. The knowledge actually sign posts you to the practice.

in many respects I would agree in that reading alone is not enough , being familliar with or learning quote texts does not make the man any more than a schollar , but what it does do is form imprints on the mind which perhaps fructify in later life , this or the next , ....
therefore to my mind there definatly are two types of Knowledge , ...aquired and experiencial , ....I will come back to that in a later post , ....

Now, here is my problem. I am finding the practice of Hinduism too lofty for me to practice. Living a pure sattvic life is so difficult, because I have so much rajas and tamas. Everytime I try to live a pure sattvic life, my dominant gunas of rajas and tamas just take over. In particular rajas, the desire for pleasure(kama) is very strong in me. I had no idea it was so strong in me until I opened the Pandora's box so to speak about 6 years ago. I use to live a simple life of no alcohol, almost pure celibacy, vegetarian, barely swore and practised regular meditation --- almost close to a monks life. However, I felt very repressed, and like a Tantrik on the vama-marga(left path) I decided to shake things up, so I started drinking alcohol, going clubbing, having causal sex, eating meat, swearing a bit and stopped meditating. That was it, all my previous spirituality went out of the window, it has taken over my life, it is has completely consumed me, the pleasure seeking drive has taken control. I get bored if I am not out there partying now and it is the only thing I look forward to in the week -- cum weekend so I can go out and get pissed and laid. My life is like 50 shades of grey. It is the biggest about turn I have ever done in my life.

at least you are Honest , ....this surely is half the battle , ...
this is Kaliuga life it is degraded , people on the whole live lives of pleasure seeking due to their false identificationwith the self , and when one is sarrounded by others who live by this kaliyuga mentality it is often difficult to break the cycle , it is only when one realises that this pleasure seeking is empty of true enjoyment that one thinks of going beyond it , ...afterall it is merely a stage just like the stage babies go through when they must put everythng in their mouths , ...but very soon they develop other modes of sensory awareness.

Now, what is unfortunate, I am doing this with all that sublime, cosmic and lofty knowledge of Hinduism. I know that this material body is not me, I know that sensory pleasures are temporal and seeking them brings one to destruction. I have read what Shankara has to say "Sensory pleasures are more venomous than a cobra, because while a cobra has to actually bite you for the venom to get to you, sense objects poison you at mere sight" or "the fish is attracted by taste, the bee to smell, the mosquito to sight, the elephant to touch, and the deer to sound, all meet destruction, but what of the human whose attracted by all 5" I agree, as this has become the modus operandi of my life currently, it does actually feel self-destructive. The damage I have done to my self physically, mentally and emotionally in pursuit of these sense objects is probably great, whose consequences I may have to bear in later life.

now here is where expreiencial knowledge begins to arrise , ...we feel compelled to do someting even though we know it is shallow , that the pleasure derived will be short lived and we can sence through experience that there are repercussions , in our heart of hearts we know we are wasting our time this ties up with what we have read , as you qoute , ...we are warned of the addictive and destructive nature of such behaviors , but still we do it , ...
the only good that can come through being so willfull and dissobeying the vedic instructions as to the laws of nature , is that when one reaches the point , as you are , of questioning what a person can get caught up in , ...then one comes to the point of contemplating true renunciation , that is at least renunciation of fruitless pleasures , ....

So you may ask me "Why don't you just stop" Well, as Krishna said to Arjuna, I can't help it, the gunas are compelling me. I have tried to stop a few times and I just get bored, depressed and crave it, think about it all the time and even dream about it(it almost like an addiction) So my question is am I even supposed to stop? Perhaps I need to just ride this one out, pay the price for doing it, and come out wiser at the end of it. It is said in the Yoga shastra, that nature(prakriti) keeps providing the experiences that the soul(purusha) needs, until the soul develops discrimination(viveka) and no longer needs it.

you will stop only when you tire of it , only when you want more lasting pleasure , ....if one wants to use the excuse of carrying on because one is karmicaly destined to live it out for another few lifetimes , then all one is doing is prolonging the mundane experience of bodily life at the expence of truely experiencing the purpose of human life and realising it to be a steping stone to higher awareness .


This may take several lifetimes. Although I am equipped with the wisdom of the Upanishads, Bhagvad Gita, it is not actually my own experiential knowledge. No matter how many times I say to myself "I am not the body" I still can't stop looking in the mirror to see if I look good enough to go out(yes, I am very vain)

if only all were so honest with them selves , ....

this is a facinating subject which perhaps I can tke up later

It seems to be implied in Hinduism when it says that it takes millions of lifetimes of good deeds before one gets liberation, that it is expected that you are not going to succeed in a single lifetime, that you are in fact going to make millions of mistakes as you evolve and through the souls accumulated experience it gradually matures. This makes sense to me. However, I want to pose a question to you, to provoke a philosophical discussion: Do we need to just go through the experiences to learn or can we catalyse our learning by the learning from knowledge from the scriptures? Is knowledge gathered from scripture a true substitute for life learning?

Shastra if we read it properly confirms everything we need to know , then gives all the answers to our most vexing questions and the antidote practice to all our missguided attatchments , so yes we can learn from the wisdom contained in shastra but for that wisdom to become ours we have to be able to apply the same wisdom in every situation , ...which requires discrimination , ...this is an interesting topic which I will return to this evening as sadly I am running out of time this morning , .....

but in short there is no substitute for practice , ....and practice as they say , ..makes perfect !
 

Chakra

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I have a burning question regarding actually practising Hinduism in real life. Hinduism is more of a religion of practice than it is of faith or belief. It really doesn't matter what you believe in Hinduism, even if you believe in Brahman, there is no salvation just through belief. I want to extend this further and say it doesn't even matter what scripture you have read, how many scriptures you have read or how many philosophies you have mastered in Hinduism, all of this is just conceptual knowledge, or as Sanata Kumara says to Narada in the Upanishads, all of this is just name. The knowledge actually sign posts you to the practice.
This is true. Hindus are united by maybe 1 or 2 common beliefs., along with an appreciation for Hindu architecture (temples) and culture. However, beliefs may not matter, but actions do, and Hinduism is fairly regulatory on that.

Now, here is my problem. I am finding the practice of Hinduism too lofty for me to practice. Living a pure sattvic life is so difficult, because I have so much rajas and tamas. Everytime I try to live a pure sattvic life, my dominant gunas of rajas and tamas just take over. In particular rajas, the desire for pleasure(kama) is very strong in me. I had no idea it was so strong in me until I opened the Pandora's box so to speak about 6 years ago. I use to live a simple life of no alcohol, almost pure celibacy, vegetarian, barely swore and practised regular meditation --- almost close to a monks life. However, I felt very repressed, and like a Tantrik on the vama-marga(left path) I decided to shake things up, so I started drinking alcohol, going clubbing, having causal sex, eating meat, swearing a bit and stopped meditating. That was it, all my previous spirituality went out of the window, it has taken over my life, it is has completely consumed me, the pleasure seeking drive has taken control. I get bored if I am not out there partying now and it is the only thing I look forward to in the week -- cum weekend so I can go out and get pissed and laid. My life is like 50 shades of grey. It is the biggest about turn I have ever done in my life.[/quote]
What is it about each of those activities that appeal to you? For example, with alcohol and meat, do you feel pressured to intake them because your friends do the same?


So you may ask me "Why don't you just stop" Well, as Krishna said to Arjuna, I can't help it, the gunas are compelling me. I have tried to stop a few times and I just get bored, depressed and crave it, think about it all the time and even dream about it(it almost like an addiction)
What are your hobbies? You may find fulfillment from activities that naturally cater to your intellect and creativity.
So my question is am I even supposed to stop? Perhaps I need to just ride this one out, pay the price for doing it, and come out wiser at the end of it. It is said in the Yoga shastra, that nature(prakriti) keeps providing the experiences that the soul(purusha) needs, until the soul develops discrimination(viveka) and no longer needs it. This may take several lifetimes. Although I am equipped with the wisdom of the Upanishads, Bhagvad Gita, it is not actually my own experiential knowledge. No matter how many times I say to myself "I am not the body" I still can't stop looking in the mirror to see if I look good enough to go out(yes, I am very vain)
It is said by masters such as Krishna and others that it is very easy to be entangled in material desires. The strength of maya is so potent that even Narada and Brahma succumbed to it. After all, we assume that the pleasures we derive from the 5 senses are the greatest ones we will experience in our lifetimes. The point is to realize the self-destructing nature of letting your desires control your ego and lifestyle and thus seek advice from people and eventually a spiritual master. It seems that you are in this stage right now.

Atatho Brahma Jijnasa

It seems to be implied in Hinduism when it says that it takes millions of lifetimes of good deeds before one gets liberation, that it is expected that you are not going to succeed in a single lifetime, that you are in fact going to make millions of mistakes as you evolve and through the souls accumulated experience it gradually matures.
Perhaps in your last millionth life you said, "In a million years I will get liberation," and it may be the case that this lifetime is when you receive liberation. The point is, liberation is attainable in one lifetime, as long as you do things correctly.

To be brutally honest, your thinking reminds me too much of the common "Let God take care of it" which has plagued the average religious person. Who knows what kind of birth you may have in your next life? It is said that the humanoid form of life is highly precious because it is then possible to learn about Brahman and attain liberation---you shouldn't waste it.
This makes sense to me. However, I want to pose a question to you, to provoke a philosophical discussion: Do we need to just go through the experiences to learn or can we catalyse our learning by the learning from knowledge from the scriptures? Is knowledge gathered from scripture a true substitute for life learning?
I think both are important. There are people who became elevated masters like Valmiki who simply had a life-changing event and then became known for their virtues. Same with Ajamila, who became an alcoholic, married a prostitute, and deserted his family for his material desires. He was eventually saved by the name of Vishnu. I think you should read up on the stories of the two if you are curious or looking for inspiration.

Take care.
 

Spirit_Warrior

Active Member
Thank you for such amazing replies and sagely advice. I will reply to each post individually shortly. By the way I went out again last night partied hard, assaulted the senses with temporal pleasures, and by the end of it still feel empty!
 

Spirit_Warrior

Active Member
No. But I am 63, been happily married for 41 years, am vegetarian, don't drink or smoke. (I did in my teenage years but was luckily shy enough with girls to not sleep around) . So as far as whay is actually possible in terms of living a sattvic lifestyle, I'm probably at 95% or so. My meditations, pilgrimages, and darshan at temples is plenty enough excitement

You are a far better man than I am.

I am close to 40 years old, so basically you are far my senior. But I want to just say being married, vegetarian, not drinking, not smoking, meditating, going to to temple and pilgrimage and which as you say is 95% sattvic does not necessarily mean that your mind is sattvic. There are many people, especially those born in traditional conservative Indian families that do exactly the same things as you say --- in fact to use an extreme example Hitler was vegetarian -- he wasn't exactly sattvic and nor are 90% of those Indian people who live like that. You are only as good as your desires. If you say you are lucky you were shy so you did not sleep around, I would say rather than this being a positive thing, it is a negative thing, it is because you were unable to do it, that you didn't do it. It would be more positive if you actually could do it that you didn't do it. Renouncing what you don't have is easy. I could easily say right now I renounce being a billionaire, I renounce being a movie star --- I can renounce it because I don't have it. If I had it it would be a very different story.

I recognised a long time ago though my lifestyle was 95% sattvic, my mind was say only 5% sattvic. I have not revealed in my OP, but I will reveal now, since starting my path of debauchery that I am currently on, I have made real concerted efforts to go back to a sattvic lifestyle. I even went to India and lived 6 months in an ashram as an actual monk, head shaved, dhoti, temple worship and meditation everyday, the full works. I thought that by living like that I will be able to to change my habits and being surrounded by other monks will inspire me to change. Do you know what ended up happening -- the very thing I was getting away from, presented itself in the ashram! I could not find a single true seeker there(I met some nice people though) they were all talking about material things. About 80% told me that they want to become swamis because your life is set then, you can make loads of money, go on world tours, write books, give lectures and get famous. I was like hang on, you not seeking moksha, you are seeking artha!(wealth) I saw in the same ashram kama to., I saw the monks falling over themselves to get chocolates, ice cream, pizzas and delicious foods -- literally pushing and shoving to get to it. I saw what happened behind close doors as well(I won't divulge more than this, but I think you get the idea)

You might say to me, they are just beginner monks so they bound to have these desires. That is what I was telling myself too so I stayed there several months because I wanted to believe that this path will indeed lead to me becoming a better man --- but alas --- the damn swamis were exactly the same! In class they were teaching us how great we are, because we are spiritual seekers, how we already almost there(at stage 6 of 9 of Shankara) and just because we were at the Ashram, it itself is an indicator of highly evolved we were, how we were better than "them" out there. They were what Krishna called mithyachari(hypocrites) I refused to be a hypocrite, so I came back from there. If if it is wordly desire that you seek, then seek worldy desires in the world. You know what is ironic I have met more spiritual people in bars and pubs than in the ashram.

Socrates said "Speak, so I can see you" We are only as good as our desires. We may pretend we are such great people, so much better than others, more evolved --- but when we face the real mirror of self-introspection, we discover a completely different self, a self that we may even dislike. I admit I don't like the self that I am. Sw Vandana Jyothi put it beautifully, that self of me that I don't like is the ego and that which does not like it is the Shiva-self. God does not like what I am right now(my eyes are actually welling up as I write this automatically, it means it is true, God is weeping for me) I am foresaken right now. I don't have love in my life. I did not have proper family or friends when growing up(I won't go into details, I hate pitty-fests) It has been a very hard life and I have carried the weight of it on my own shoulders. However, it has made me who I am. The constant stings of life have stirred my discirmination(viveka) but it is renunication(vairagya) that is lacking. Having not had a lot of love in my early life, I am seeking it now --- going out getting pissed, wanting to get laid, to party all the time, to get social validation is all the manifestation of that lack of love I have had -- you were totally right when you said "something seems to be amiss" I know this is not the best way to get love, but it is the only way I know so far.

Believe me I am trying to be more sattvic and I have made real efforts, not half hearted efforts. I stayed in that Ashram for months on end, even though from the very first week I saw its reality -- I still stuck it, because I wanted to see whether it was just a projection of my ego finding a clause to get out, or whether it was my Shiva-Self that was telling me to get the hell out of there. I think it was the latter, because on the very first day I left from there, back home on the train journey, I met an actual real guru, who told me that I had done the right thing, but I need to now move on and stop cribbing about how unvirtuous they were. It is like Jesus would say, "Don't try to take out the splinter from your neighbours eye, when you love logs in your own" There is nothing wrong with them, they are are all too human like me, seeking kama and artha, but I think the seeking of moksha was more stronger in me than even the swamis there. I am what Shankara would call a "mumkshu" a seeker of liberation(a spiritual seeker if you like) it is when you have painful longing for liberation -- and trust me it is very painful. It is not sorrow, it is not depression --- it is boredom, ennui. It truly is the worst feeling you can think of. It is when no matter what you do -- you just feel empty perpetually. No amount of pleasure and wealth can fill it. I use alcohol, sex, meat etc only as a means to temporally escape it. It hurts, it hurts so so bad.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
.. my mind was say only 5% sattvic. .. I thought that by living like that I will be able to to change my habits and being surrounded by other monks will inspire me to change. Do you know what ended up happening -- the very thing I was getting away from, presented itself in the ashram! I could not find a single true seeker there (I met some nice people though) ..

Having not had a lot of love in my early life, I am seeking it now --- going out getting pissed, wanting to get laid, to party all the time, to get social validation is all the manifestation of that lack of love I have had ..
Oh, the monkey mind. Don't try to imprison it. Let it go free. Just do not pay attention to what it does. If you did not find any sattvic person in the ashram, why should it affect you? You be on your way. Get married the Indian way. But you need to be a balanced person for that. An unbalanced person can spoil the life of his partner. Whatever you do, don't do that.
 

Spirit_Warrior

Active Member
Vanakkam,

If you are at an extreme, don't seek the other extreme.

It's all about balance. Tame your mind little by little. If you have any drive, be the one in control of it.not letting the drive control you.

Then little by little, seek balance.

When you'll have more control over yourself, you'll be able to choose and seek a path and lifestyle

Aum Namah Shivaya

You and a few others have brought up this point, so I want to address many who made this point in this reply. It is actually a common sense idea. We all must eventually seek some kind of moderation of our desires. We know what happens if you go to extreme with desires, obsessions, addictions etc, or if you go the the way and you suppress all your desires, a host of psychological diseases. However, this deceptively simple idea, is actually the most difficult things in the world --- finding that balance is spirituality itself, finding that balance is in fact moksha itself --- it is epitomised by the Shiva Nataraja, Shiva is poised in a state of perfect balance, with one foot crushing the demon of the ego and the other raised in the air, while carrying an expression of serenity --- Shiva really is the ultimate inspiration for every spiritual seeker. He really is the gods of all gods, because he has through pure effort rose to the highest ranks. He also all too human, he has desires, he gets angry. He is a reminder for the seeker that we all can attain Shiva-realisation.

Vishnu, on the other hand, is always in that lofty, sublime pure sattvic state. He is not for the seeker, he is for the devotee who can surrender themselves to him completely. He is lord. He is God.


I am a seeker, my dominant gunas are tamas and rajas. Sattva is that balance that comes from the tug of war going on between tamas and rajas. That same tug of war that is happening in the gunas of Brahma, and 100 years of his life or 311.08 trillion years they finally resolve. It all started with the guna of rajas, the universe exploded into being because rajas was at the extreme. One day tamas will be at the extreme, and the universe is instantly destroyed and once again 100% sattva is left. The same is happening in my life -- rajas and tamas are fighting it out with each other -- sometimes rajas takes control, sometimes tamas and as they fight sattva increases little by little --- its signs are, says Shankara, more and more viveka, ,more and more vairgaya, more and more sadsampati(6 inner wealth, sense control etc)

But can you just impose a balance? Could I just say "Oh, I need to moderate, maybe drink less, go out less, have sex less" Is it really that simple? If it is, why am I struggling to do it? Why are so many people struggling to do it? I mentioned earlier what Krishna said to Arjuna, and said "I cant help it, I am compelled by my gunas" I was referencing the question when Arjuna asked Krishna "If the path of knowledge(Samkhya) is the highest path, then why do you want me to fight this terrible war" and then Krishna replies "Because you are compelled by the gunas" His gunas are kshatriya gunas, with very strong component of rajas. A warrior needs rajas -- they need to be aggressive, active, strong and kshatriyas even have to eat meat to give them more aggression, strength and bulk. A vegan monk warrior wouldn't be very effective --- that's probably why the Buddhist monks were no match for the marauding Muslim warrior. Anyway I digress a bit. The point is you can't just practice the path of knowledge, you can't just adopt the yamas and niyamas, you are only as good as your gunas. You can only work with your gunas as they are right now -- rather than what you want them be (more sattvik) --- though karma yoga --- through the path of action. It sort of implies you just need to do it anyway, yes or no? If you need to fight, you need to just do it anyway and throw ahimsa to the wind. It is like you need to surf the waves, not fight against it.

It is clear that the pure sattvic path was not itself sufficient, because if it was, why would there be a need for the Tantra path? The Tantra path was formed for people like you and me -- us mere mortals, us humans. Tantra is not about suppressing desire -- it is about channelling desire, it is about playing with desire too, exploring desire, and eventually like Shiva, wearing desire around your neck like a garland of snakes. If you tell a child not put their hand in a fire to stop them from doing it(knowledge) they will probably just do it anyway(action) and they will instantly learn fire burns(viveka) and they will stop doing it(vairagya) We learn by making mistakes, falling over again and again, until we eventually learn. The same is said by the Samkhya isn't it? Prakriti keeps providing the experiences the soul needs(giving it everything it needs and wants) like a nurturing mother, and the dance of prakriti continues until the soul sees her, and then like a bashful woman she stops dancing.

I think my words are wise, but I fear that I am hope I am not rationalising my debauched lifestyle and to keep doing it, in the name of Tantra. I know this is the biggest pitfall on the Tantra path. I know loads of Sadhus in India just use it as excuse to smoke ganja, eat meat and do debauched things. A lot of these Naga Sadhus are more social delinquents than spiritual warriors. The ego can be a very devious devil, maybe this satan of my ego is fooling me into a satanic path. This is why I have asked the question as a philosophical question, and my aim was not to focus more on my personal life and ask for advice, even though I appreciate all the amazing advice I been given(though some, without mentioning which, had a bit of a judgemental tone) but I genuinely want to see whether my current understanding of Tantra is correct, or am I missing something.

In Buddhism and Jainism(the Shramana path, path of ascetics) they do in fact try to follow a pure 100% sattvik life. You don't just gradually work your way up(like in Hinduism) you just do it straight away: Adopt the 5 yamas, panchasheela, become vegetarian, stop all intoxicants cold-turkey, and practice daily meditation and prayer. In Jainism it is even more extreme, even the laity for which the rules are relaxed, have to follow very strict rules, rules that are actually stifling! If it really is that simple --- just be good --- keeping being good --- and you will get there in the end --- then I am unnecessarily putting my body, mind and soul at great risk and creating negative karma for myself -- then surely Tantra is not a good path at all.

Problem is -- OMG IT IS BORING! Jainism and Buddhism bore the hell out of me. I find Buddhist monasteries and Jain monasteries to be most depressing places in the world. There is such a lack of colour, energy, spice, that which makes life interesting. If we really were suppose to live like that, then why would we have emotions and why would the world be such a diverse place ? I remember a friend of mine went to a Zen Buddhist monastery in Japan, he couldn't stick it, it bored the hell out of him and he left. I too, when I tried to live like a monk in the past, as others have noted, rebelled hard against it and couldn't stick it. Should I just be stoic and face all the boredom, in hope that eventually I will learn to love that lifestyle and it will become second nature to me that I will kick myself why didn't I just do it from day one? Is it really that simple -- I wish it was.

It all boils down to knowledge vs experience/action. Knowledge is said to be the highest path, but still Krishna does not advocate it for Arjuna(the seeker) he advocates action. It makes sense to me that we truly learn only from life experience -- it is this knowledge that we can sincerely talk about as our own. Like I am very sincerely talking about what I have learned in my life so far -- it's mine, not somebody else's, not some scriptures. I am learning exactly that which the scripture says though about sense objects and pleasures --- how its limited and temporal, how it drains you, how it makes you dependent, and ultimately how it destroys you. I can see through the veils of maya of wordly human relationships, the universal condition of suffering(as Nanak would say, there is nobody that is not suffering) and yes how the human body as Swami Chinmayananda would say --- is a walking toilet --- made up of filth, blood, bones, mucous, urine, excrement and only the exterior layer of skin covers it all up, otherwise it would be a ghastly sight and nobody would want a human body. It is all dawning on me little by little and day by day just through life knowledge. It just hasn't reached critical mass for renunciation to happen.
 
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Nyingjé Tso

Dharma not drama
Vanakkam,

You still have quite a few lives ahead of you to reach moksha.
Why the hurry ?

I know what abuse and loneliness brings and can do. Done terrible things to self too.
Dwelved too in pleasure and pain, drifting away. Got very, very far away. I can assure you.
It almost got me for good, then got stronger than it all and reached balance.
Pain was a pleasure, joys were painful...
You understand that all of this situation is because it all lost meaning to you and you are trying to seek this meaning.
It took years to experience and understand. That there was no meaning to seek. It is meaningless.
Shut up, monkey mind, now I dance with Shiva.
I do not seek him in meaning. Not seek him in any balance of any gunas. I dance to his tune and there is nothing to understand, nothing that I need. Just experience. All in right time, it comes. Because it is far away yet never separate.

You see, all this pain, suffering and pleasure was necessary to experience. It is not lost time or wasted energy if you look at it From the perspective of the numerous lives you have left to live.

If Shiva is your ishta dev, so you should know. I know Shiva. I trust Shiva. I dance with Shiva.
Shivoham
It is Same for you.

If you can't sit still, then dance.

Good luck on your path, we'll all be meeting where it takes you anyway

Aum Namah Shivaya
 
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Spirit_Warrior

Active Member
You still have quite a few lives ahead of you to reach moksha.
Why the hurry ?

This is actually my point. Moksha takes millions of lifetimes, so spake the shastras. In Buddhism there is a great analogy of just how many lifetimes it takes, its takes as long as a bird carrying a scarf flies over the Himalaya mountain taking one particle at a time of it, would take to weather the entire mountain. Knowing thus, I am not in hurry to seek moksha. I am seeking far more mundane goals of life, a function of as you correctly intuited, the loneliness and emotional abuse I have faced. If I was able to show you my emotional scars I think you will see a very damaged heart --ive taken blow after blow almost non-stop for nearly 40 years of my life. I am seeking what a lot of people take for granted, good friends, mutual love(I have never had mutual love), family and finding my place in society -- all emotional related goals. I am not too bothered about wealth and fame. Going out, drinking, casual dating and sex is the only way I know at the moment how to seek this, because its the easy way.

Aupmanyav, correctly said earlier on that I am really in no position to be in a real relationship with another if unbalanced, because to be honest I wouldn't want to be with somebody like me either. I am too unbalanced, wild, self-destructive and emotionally damaged to be in a healthy relationship with somebody. I have had relationships in the past, none of them were healthy. I do differ with him on the virtue of marriage though, Indian style i.e. arranged. A lot of Indian marriages are not happy, but because of the taboo for divorce, like a chore they drag on and they get use to living like that, like getting use to living in prison. I am too free spirited to want to impose such a sentence on me. If I do marry somebody, it will be somebody I love and they love me back, or never. As I am nearing the age of 40 and it still hasn't happened, I think maybe it will never happen. Coming to terms with a destiny of loneliness and lack of love is a very depressing thought indeed.


But the seeking for moksha is not an either or choice. You don't just decide all of a sudden that you are going to seek it --- in fact a mumkshu doesn't actually know what it is that they are seeking, they just know that there is something that they want that is not either kama, artha or dharma. It manifests as a feeling of emptiness and when it gets so intense, Shankara says it is like you are on fire and you desperately seek water to douse it out --- or the desire is as intense as having your face held under water and gasping for air. It has not got that far for me, but it has gone to the extent where it is painful.

If you can't sit still, then dance.

Very beautifully put. But now my question is --- how? How do I dance with Shiva?
 
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DeviChaaya

Jai Ambe Gauri
Premium Member
No longer a placeholder!

There are several traditions that I know of, primarily of the Shaiva and Shakta vines, that advise the seeker to enjoy those things they are craving until the craving gives out; it always gives out at some point after all. Until you have exhausted these cravings you cannot really focus your mind on spirituality with the kind of single mindedness needed to achieve moksha. Now, if you ask me which traditions, I know for a fact that Kashmir Shaivism advocates this path; at least as taught by Swami Lakshman joo.

Now, my personal thoughts; cravings arise like waves on the ocean and if ignored they can, like the ocean, eat away at your foundations until you collapse and fall to them. If we cultivate these cravings, give them the attention they need and then let go of them, we can let them simply brush off of us like surface rust. It is only when we let these cravings overwhelm us, until we think of nothing but, that we are deluded into thinking they are all there is.

You've already demonstrated that you are able to recognise that there is more. That means you're already far ahead of many, many people.

Now, to make you feel better; I gave up beef over a year ago now but I still crave it like you wouldn't believe. I'm hanging out for a double quarter pounder with cheese from McDonalds but I'm not going to have one; it is not a craving that needs to be satisfied. Doesn't mean it's not a strong one though! If I'm really craving it than I'll go cook some mutton so that I've had that red meat fix.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I am Brahman. I have no fetters binding me.

॥ निर्वाण षटकम्॥
मनो बुद्ध्यहंकारचित्तानि नाहम् न च श्रोत्र जिह्वे न च घ्राण नेत्रे
न च व्योम भूमिर् न तेजॊ न वायु: चिदानन्द रूप: शिवोऽहम् शिवॊऽहम् ॥

न च प्राण संज्ञो न वै पञ्चवायु: न वा सप्तधातुर् न वा पञ्चकोश:
न वाक्पाणिपादौ न चोपस्थपायू चिदानन्द रूप: शिवोऽहम् शिवॊऽहम् ॥

न मे द्वेष रागौ न मे लोभ मोहौ मदो नैव मे नैव मात्सर्य भाव:
न धर्मो न चार्थो न कामो ना मोक्ष: चिदानन्द रूप: शिवोऽहम् शिवॊऽहम् ॥

न पुण्यं न पापं न सौख्यं न दु:खम् न मन्त्रो न तीर्थं न वेदा: न यज्ञा:
अहं भोजनं नैव भोज्यं न भोक्ता चिदानन्द रूप: शिवोऽहम् शिवॊऽहम् ॥

न मृत्युर् न शंका न मे जातिभेद: पिता नैव मे नैव माता न जन्म
न बन्धुर् न मित्रं गुरुर्नैव शिष्य: चिदानन्द रूप: शिवोऽहम् शिवॊऽहम् ॥

अहं निर्विकल्पॊ निराकार रूपॊ विभुत्वाच्च सर्वत्र सर्वेन्द्रियाणाम्
न चासंगतं नैव मुक्तिर् न मेय: चिदानन्द रूप: शिवोऽहम् शिवॊऽहम् ॥
Nirvana Shatakam -निर्वाण षटकम् | Geet Ganga
 

Spirit_Warrior

Active Member
I think I will shorten my messages and not go into essay-posts, so I can cover more of the earlier replies. I just discovered the multi-quote feature, very useful indeed.

It's no accident you lived like a monk for so long. The failure, if it be considered such, is that when the inevitable "tests" came, the election to abandon your sadhana was made without properly consulting your Lord. So, the Masters you studied would recommend that you do that sincerely now, and in the meantime, offer every pleasure and their opposites (they will be there, it is the Law) to Him, as well.

Indeed, staying on the straight and narrow path of the monastic life is indeed very testing. I have seen very few, if any monks succeed. They always succumb to some temptation. Also, sometimes the suppression is so strong, when their desires do manifest, they manifest in the most perverted of ways(e.g. child molestation in the Church)
However, we do find in the Dharmic tradition and the Christian tradition, this idea of temptation by the lord of death/satan(the ego) and how the great souls such as Nachiketa, Buddha and Jesus were all tempted, but they don't give in, and were able to reach the final enlightenment. The problem is what about us mere mortals. I am not Buddha or Jesus or Nachiketa -- I am just an ordinary human being with ordinary human desires. I give in to temptation straight away.

It doesn't have to be an either or deal. You lived like a monk for a while and therefore you rebelled hard when you felt repressed. We are not robots we are humans. You can talk about spirituality all you like but we are still creatures of pleasure.
It's like when the Amish go off into the "real world" for a year (I forget what that's called.) They end up getting drunk on debauchary. Because they haven't really learnt their limitations yet. They haven't even been given the chance. You need to find balance. Find out your limits. Everything in moderation. Even Zen Monks have the occasional vice.
More often than not us good for nothing whippersnappers drink heavily during the teen years. Trying out various drinks and things. Then we go over our limits, have one particularly loaded night with the mother of all hangovers and learn to curb our enthusiasm a bit better from it. We learn to calm down after a while. After it's out of our system.
Do not be afraid of this lifestyle but be sure to ramain open to learn from it. Otherwise it will consume you.

Thank you for this. This is why I left the Ashram. The Ashram is an artificial, closed and isolated environment where you do not have to face the problems of the real world. It is all well and good staying in the Ashram reading scriptures and Vedanta philosophy and thinking to yourself "Oh, look how I spiritual I am, I am Brahman" but the real tests come when you are actually out there in the real world. When I realised the ashram was basically just a sham environment full of hypocrites who were just trying to fulfil their worldly desires in the comfort of the Ashram space, some just left their homes for the free lodging and food and promises of a lucrative career, I knew I needed to go out into the real world and pursue those desires there.

Aupmanyav asked me earlier why do I bother what the other monks and swamis are doing? I am bothered because it shows the path is not efficacious. If even the Swamis can't follow the path, and they have been there doing it for years and even decades, then I don't want to waste my time and energy following a path which does not produce good results. Time is precious and I don't have a lot of it. In fact, rather than the monks becoming more and more realised, they just become more institutionalised by the Ashram and then involved in Ashram politics. I met very senior monks who struggled with anger, were irritable and many of them look depressed to me.

In Vedanta they practice a specific sadhana called jnana-abhyasa, that is constant churning of the intellect through reading scriptures and contemplating on its import(the Upanishads, the Bhagvad Gita, Brahma Sutras and the prakaranas of Shankara) and reading the commentaries or bhasaya of Shankara and sub-commentaries(dipika) and sub-sub commentaries(dipika) of the works, in addition to that mastering the Sanskrit language and vykarana. So that eventually as if like a Zen satori one day instantly enlightenment happens(aporksha jnana) Well, I it certainly did not happen with even the most senior monks in the Asrahm --- at best I met great pandits and shastris who could recite any verse from any scripture at command --- I did not go to the Ashram to be a pandit.

It is ironic though in the very same ashram we are studying the Vivekachudamani and Panchadasi, that constantly criticise just knowledge of scripture, calling pursuit of scripture shastra vasana. In VC in one verse it says "To the one who is not self-realised, scripture is useless; and to one who is self-realised, scripture is just as useless" In Panchadasi it says knowledge from sharvana(mere reading) is mere preliminary, superior to that is knowledge from manam(contemplation and inquiry) but infinitely superior to that is knowledge born in samadhi of a pure 100% sattvic mind. The message here is eventually we need to experience the truth, not just merely believe it and keep repeating it like a parrot.



Perhaps you should develop an approach more leaning towards Bhakti?

I struggle very strongly with Bhakti because of my strong atheist tendencies. I am an ex-atheist(I no longer regard myself as an atheist) but my relationship with God(Ishvara) has often been one of love/hate -- sometimes I pray and talk to God, at others time I just feel really silly that I am talking to some fictitious thing. I have tried temple worship(puja) but I can never get into it --- I had to do it everyday while at the Ashram in morning and evening. I have also tried Tantrik meditations of visualising Shiva, which I am more comfortable with, because Shiva to be represents the pure Self(Atman) that is who I really am, and I am visualising exactly those qualities that I want to cultivate: like fearlessness(abhay), innocence(bole), powerful god(mahadeva) bhairava(ferocious) mahayogi(master of Yoga) --- but I struggle with this approach too, because the visualisation of of these qualities is what I am creating with my imagination, and again I fear that I am allowing myself to be bewitched by own imagination. I prefer silent breathing meditations or vipassana because I am not adding anything from my own imagination.
 
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Spirit_Warrior

Active Member
but in short there is no substitute for practice , ....and practice as they say , ..makes perfect !

Yes, another common sense maxim of wisdom. As you say apply the wisdom of scriptures to real life and use your discrimination to learn. I don't think it is particular the discrimination that is lacking, I do note at the time the hollowness of wordly experiences and affairs and the painful nature of sense objects. I have got to the extent where even when I experience a sense pleasure, I can feel the pain simultaneously of it. I will give the analogy of an expensive firework -- when you light the fuse of the firework, it brings about excitement of the coming display, but at the same time you know the display is going to be limited and temporal, last barely minutes or seconds and then it is over and you lost money. It is the same with sense pleasures, there is the initial high of pleasure, but as it reaches that high it sooner also starts comes down, and during that period you lose time and energy --- every pleasure contains concealed pain. To seek these very temporal pleasures we expend so much effort and what we get out of it in the end is nothing --- zero sum game.

The best of all sense pleasures is sex. I have had loads of sex with loads of partners in the last few years, I have even had threesomes and foursomes(sorry if that disgusts you, just stating what is true) I have noted exactly the same features in every act of sex --- so much of my time and energy was spent arranging for it(getting dressed to look good, dating or clubbing, spending money to buy drinks, arrange rooms, flirting and foreplay) or if it on the internet you got the added elements(sending messages, sharing photos, mind games, meeting) and always the anticipation of it was more exciting than the actual act itself. There is an initial high, you get excited, and then it goes down and you don't even want be next to your partner anymore --- the last thing on your mind is to have more sex. Then there is the added problems of the impurity of the body, how sharing sweat, saliva, blood and other bodily fluids is actually polluting the body and can lead to STI's STD. Nor do we know about the adverse karmic effects, on the mind or on the subtle/astral body --- surely having random casual sex is not good for the soul.

--- everything the scripture says is being confirmed by just watching mindfully and objectively the crudeness of the act of the very best pleasure the material body can offer. Many realise it is not enough, which is why there is a vast porn and sex industry out there to make it better --- and the level of perversion it can stoop to I have also seen -- the kind of comments and messages I have got from people in secret --- we all have skeletons in our closet.

Then you may ask --- why oh why if you know all this is temporal, limited painful etc, are you still doing it? Ask the same question to a smoker, and you will get perhaps a similar reply. They know smoking causes cancer, they see pics of rotting lungs on the packet, it says "Smoking will kill you" --- but they do it anyway, because they'd rather die young having loads of temporal pleasures than living a long life of dull pure life. I have a friend who is a doctor who chain smokes. It is boredom that propels us into these temporal pleasure seeking behaviours. It is only when it starts to become unbearably painful that you stop -- that is when discrimination is accompanied by vairagya.
 
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Spirit_Warrior

Active Member
What is it about each of those activities that appeal to you? For example, with alcohol and meat, do you feel pressured to intake them because your friends do the same?

It is not anything anything about them that particularly appeals to me. I use both as a means towards ends. I drink ONLY socially, I don't drink by myself(I am not an alcoholic) I eat meat only so I can get the protein and mass that I need to gain at the gym, an investment that ultimately is to improve your social benefits and value.

What are your hobbies? You may find fulfillment from activities that naturally cater to your intellect and creativity.

This is actually a sound point and that is what I am looking at right now -- just joining loads of club and interest groups like meetup.com to meet people with like minded interests. I enjoy spirituality, philosophy, graphic design, singing and walking. I also like travelling when I have money.

However, will this in itself bring me to happiness? We once did an analysis of this in our ashram and looked at kama, artha, dharma and moksha -- and in the end we were able to eliminate artha and dharma to realise that there it was a choice between kama and moksha. The other two are means towards ends and the final end is happiness. It is a choice between either temporal happiness of karma or everlasting happiness of moksha. The point when we had enough of temporal happiness is the point we start seeking everlasting happiness -- or the Self.

I have a friend who loves travelling and has a top job -- he 's travelled to dozens of countries and he wants to hit a target of 100 countries. I spoke to him recently he was coming from South America, he had an absolutely amazing time, the best time of his life apparently, and because of he slit his wrists --- bizarre? He told me why, "I slit my wrists because I had the best time of my life, and it all came to an end and I was back to square one". In other words travelling etc is no different to seeking any other pleasure. For me it is about sex, and lust, but for others its chocolates, music, art, dance -- but the end result is still the same as with any other pleasure -- whether sight, smell, touch, sound or taste --- temporary; limited, makes one dependent, drains you,.

I still think it is probably better arranging my life around activities like my hobbies and meeting people, to at least deal with my chronic problems of loneliness and lack of meaningful friends in my life, than this current indiscriminate hedonistic life of partying, clubbing and getting laid all the time. I

It is said by masters such as Krishna and others that it is very easy to be entangled in material desires. The strength of maya is so potent that even Narada and Brahma succumbed to it. After all, we assume that the pleasures we derive from the 5 senses are the greatest ones we will experience in our lifetimes. The point is to realize the self-destructing nature of letting your desires control your ego and lifestyle and thus seek advice from people and eventually a spiritual master. It seems that you are in this stage right now.

Atatho Brahma Jijnasa

I thought I was at this stage so I went in search of a guru in India for years and did not find any guru, mostly just fakes and a few nice guys, nobody that is enlightened and nobody that truly could give my soul solace. I am evidently not yet at the stage, for the guru to appear yet. It is actually said finding a true guru is rare and only happens through grace.

Perhaps in your last millionth life you said, "In a million years I will get liberation," and it may be the case that this lifetime is when you receive liberation. The point is, liberation is attainable in one lifetime, as long as you do things correctly.

To be brutally honest, your thinking reminds me too much of the common "Let God take care of it" which has plagued the average religious person. Who knows what kind of birth you may have in your next life? It is said that the humanoid form of life is highly precious because it is then possible to learn about Brahman and attain liberation---you shouldn't waste it.

I think I see where you are going with this, and I have noted it myself, am I falling prey to a theory of destiny(one of the pitfalls mentioned in Samkhya shastra) that just let nature play its course and by the end of it, millions of lifetimes later I will get there anyway. You are right by creating the samskara "In millions of years I will get liberation" I am creating a mental habit of thinking like that, which could repeat from lifetime to lifetime, meaning I will never seek liberation and be forever circling samsara --- but at the same time I am a very practical person, I am not running away from any of my problems, I am not saying "Let nature take its course, and eventually my problems will vanish" my current problems are all wordly problems anxiety(Jyoti was very perceptive on picking up on the anxiety issue, I have real anxiety disorders) loneliness, low self esteem and emotional abuse(picked up by Jayabolenath) and I tried everything to correct them psychotherapy, self-help, support groups and now my recent path of hedonism --- the problems are really deep seated. Until I do not root out this damage, I can't actively seek moksha, the final goal at the top of the pyramid -- and at the same time I know that yearning for Moksha is there in the background.


I think both are important. There are people who became elevated masters like Valmiki who simply had a life-changing event and then became known for their virtues. Same with Ajamila, who became an alcoholic, married a prostitute, and deserted his family for his material desires. He was eventually saved by the name of Vishnu. I think you should read up on the stories of the two if you are curious or looking for inspiration.

I really wish I could do the same. The problem I have with these Puranic stories, is well I don't know how true they are, or whether they are legends or myths to inspire people with examples. This is one problem I find across the board in the itihas-puranas -- the stories of these great avatars, maharishis, buddhas, siddhas don't have any example in our current life. The best examples in our current time are all too human in their limits and capacities. I want to see examples of real historical people who were able to do it.

But at the same time I do think it is possible that not all knowledge one has, has to be based on life experience, that we can learn from the life experiences of those around us and from those who have gone before us, I am just skeptical whether this is a true substitute for experience. If the gunas that make us up are not at the levels of these others, can we just magically make them like that -- or do need to go through many trials and tribulations before we can?
 
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ratikala

Istha gosthi
Namaskaram ji

Yes, another common sense maxim of wisdom. As you say apply the wisdom of scriptures to real life and use your discrimination to learn. I don't think it is particular the discrimination that is lacking, I do note at the time the hollowness of wordly experiences and affairs and the painful nature of sense objects.

...yes of course discrimination begins like this in the form of observation , ....you are observing that allthough these things ammuse, please or gratify momentarily they are as shastra says shallow even poisinous

in the Gita Krsna tells Arjuna , ......


sukham tv idanim tri-vidham
srnu me bharatarsabha
abhyasad ramate yatra
duhkhantam ca nigacchati
yat tad agre visam iva
pariname 'mrtopamam
tat sukham sattvikam proktam
atma-buddhi-prasada-jam

O best of the Bhāratas, now please hear from Me about the three kinds of happiness which the conditioned soul enjoys, and by which he sometimes comes to the end of all distress. That which in the beginning may be just like poison but at the end is just like nectar and which awakens one to self-realization is said to be happiness in the mode of goodness. Bhagavad Gita Ch ..18 V .. 36-37

when I say practice makes perfect it is this diciplin of aligning one self to scriptural injunctions that I am talking about , .....it takes both practice and faith , ...but as I see from reading parts of your other posts here , you have allready come to the stage where you have lost faith in worldly persuits in that you realise them not to be a source of lasting joy , ..and from the questions you ask it seems that you are asking what comes next ?

so many times yes we get stuck in what we are culturaly conditioned into beleiving or stuck in behavioral patterns that society around us perpetuates , ....it takes great courage to make that leap of faith and to totaly cut ones ties , ..to dissacociate oneself from cultural conditioning , ..this is what I mean by discrimination ...using ones own personal experience you have said this lifestyle is not good , you have seen some value in satvic behavior otherwise you would not have been interested to try to follow it , ...

so you go to a temple and there you meet people of many scopes , you observed many negativities , ...that is normal, ...I too have met many wolves in sheeps clothing and many people in temples who are there for the wrong reasons , there are some big fakes and some even bigger egos ...but also there are many who are just trying to find their way , ...

I have got to the extent where even when I experience a sense pleasure, I can feel the pain simultaneously of it. I will give the analogy of an expensive firework -- when you light the fuse of the firework, it brings about excitement of the coming display, but at the same time you know the display is going to be limited and temporal, last barely minutes or seconds and then it is over and you lost money. It is the same with sense pleasures, there is the initial high of pleasure, but as it reaches that high it sooner also starts comes down, and during that period you lose time and energy --- every pleasure contains concealed pain. To seek these very temporal pleasures we expend so much effort and what we get out of it in the end is nothing --- zero sum game.

we are like children we know it cant last but still we want it to go on for ever , ....

The best of all sense pleasures is sex. I have had loads of sex with loads of partners in the last few years, I have even had threesomes and foursomes(sorry if that disgusts you, just stating what is true) I have noted exactly the same features in every act of sex --- so much of my time and energy was spent arranging for it(getting dressed to look good, dating or clubbing, spending money to buy drinks, arrange rooms, flirting and foreplay) or if it on the internet you got the added elements(sending messages, sharing photos, mind games, meeting) and always the anticipation of it was more exciting than the actual act itself. There is an initial high, you get excited, and then it goes down and you don't even want be next to your partner anymore --- the last thing on your mind is to have more sex. Then there is the added problems of the impurity of the body, how sharing sweat, saliva, blood and other bodily fluids is actually polluting the body and can lead to STI's STD. Nor do we know about the adverse karmic effects, on the mind or on the subtle/astral body --- surely having random casual sex is not good for the soul.

why should it disgust me , ...it is just a reliyively graphic description of human behavior on a grossor base level , ...its normal after all thia is Kaliyuga , ....but you are you disgusted ? ....when you realy think about it for what it is (which obviously you have) as just an exchange of bodily fluids , ...for no real purpose ? for no real gain and no real enjoyment ? ....I think what eventualy disgusts some people is the fact that they have continued for so long doing something so futile , it is not the exchange of fluids that is disgusting but the thought that one is wasting ones life and that one has no control over ones desire to act in such a way , ...or that one has no higer desire , ....

it is that which would disgust me , ...if I found my self in this position I would be disgusted with my self , but finding one self disgusting is the most wonderfull catalist which motivates change , the driving force which asks so what is true happiness ? ....and how do we atain it , .....?

--- everything the scripture says is being confirmed by just watching mindfully and objectively the crudeness of the act of the very best pleasure the material body can offer. Many realise it is not enough, which is why there is a vast porn and sex industry out there to make it better --- and the level of perversion it can stoop to I have also seen -- the kind of comments and messages I have got from people in secret --- we all have skeletons in our closet.

Then you may ask --- why oh why if you know all this is temporal, limited painful etc, are you still doing it? Ask the same question to a smoker, and you will get perhaps a similar reply. They know smoking causes cancer, they see pics of rotting lungs on the packet, it says "Smoking will kill you" --- but they do it anyway, because they'd rather die young having loads of temporal pleasures than living a long life of dull pure life. I have a friend who is a doctor who chain smokes. It is boredom that propels us into these temporal pleasure seeking behaviours. It is only when it starts to become unbearably painful that you stop -- that is when discrimination is accompanied by vairagya.

it is difficult for us human beings , ..we hate change yet we seek change constantly , ...we are so full of contradictions , some may ask why a person dosent give up ?...some might say it is weakness ?
I think perhaps it is more likely fear , ...we often want to change but we fear failure so we let this stop us trying , ...

but you said you tried to live a satvic life , and you are astute enough to know that satvic actions are not enough , that one must also have a satvic mind , .....

this takes practice , ...we are back to where we started , ....practice makes perfect , .....perhaps I should have said purification , ...purification removes the obsticals to happiness , ....

and true happiness ? perhaps it comes from feeling satisfied with oneself even if it is only with ones efforts ,...we canot become satvic purely by eating the right food or through asidious prayer , ....only by purifying the heart , ...pure heart wants nothing more than to be in harmony with others and with life , ....the Buddhist in me would say that true happiness comes from serving others , the Vaisnava in me says from serving the supreme , .....but both agree that serving the self leads one on a torturous path , .....

I promice you Bhakti Marg is best
 

ratikala

Istha gosthi
namaskaram Spirit Warior ji

returning to the earlier point of the numerous lifetimes needed to attain liberation , ...

yes this undoubtably is true we can all see that people around us are naturaly at different levels of spiritual attainment and for some spiritual life comes easily satvic nature is something inate thus almost instinctive , yet others strugle no matter the effort they put into it , ...in some it seems to come naturaly and to others it requires great effort , we ask why ? is this realy due to imprints gained from former lives ?....

in this case should we fight our own natural inclinations ? if we realise that we are at this or that stage can we just accept this and allow our selves to beleive that satvic nature and liberation will come to us in time , in some other life ?

we can, ...but this may be very dangerous because the imprints that we make in this life propell us into the next life in which those negative imprints will arrise , we will suffer the pull to return to simmilar actions .....if our rajasic or tamasic nature is stronger then this pull will become harder to overcome, so in many respects it is better to try to adress the ballance now before we perhaps create more havoc for ourselves .

this is why the Hindu performs samskars , why he undergoes countless ritual purifications hoping to clense the jiva of negative imprints and to replace them with imprints which will assist the jiva in his spiritual progress .

much of the worship we perform is also intended to aid the jiva , similarly taking Darshan of the Deities bestows blessings these act also as imprints , but if we wish to speed up the process, in other words cut down the chances of countless births in which we again experience material trials and tribulations and in which we can become again diverted from our true goal or our true dstination , then we need also to surrender as only when we reach the point of opening our selves fully can we truely experience the blessings of the Deity from which ever tradition one is following .

in one post @Spirit_Warrior ji you say that perhaps in earlier life you were denied love thus now you seek to fill that void by seeking or craving to seek physical affection yet , and I am sure that you have asked your self many times , ...is this love ?....and I am sure you have concluded that it is no more than animal lust , lust of the body to gratify it self and of the ego to validate it self , ...what @Aupmanyav ji speaks of , ..this is love , ...taking a wife giving her shelter and security being prepaired to support her and your joint ofspring throughout ones entire life , ...this is love , the act of putting another before oneself before thoughts of gratification , ......if we are to feel love and to taste the love of others when it is shown to us we need to be able to give love , if one comes from an un fortunate family background where the early patterns of loving reciprication are not exchanged , it can be very difficult in later life to understand the true nature of love , this you have refered to as perhaps being the cause of your seeking physical and momentary gratification, ...but as you say still you feel empty , it does not satisfy you say you are bored , ...

this is why I say Bhakti Marg is best , ...but you have said that you have tried to practice Bhakti can I ask in what form ?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I resign. Spirit_Warrior, you are more jumbled than the little help that I can provide. Keep fighting your demons. If you know Hindi, I would request you to read Sri Rama Charit Manas (carefully) or Srimad Bhagawat Purana. That is from where I got my peace. :D
 
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