Living the lofty philosophy of Hinduism

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

Detachment, non-attachment and renunciations are common English translations of the word "vairagya" the closest is non attachment, because raga is attachment, therefore vi-attachment is without attachment. In Yoga shastra vairgaya is not just an attitude, but a mental state of being. As swami Satyananda(BKS) describes: When you sit down to meditate, the very first things that will come to your mind is what is on your immediate consciousness level of mind. Such as the interactions you had in the day, your current problems, your future worries. They will prevent you from going deeper into the mind. If you go past them, them anxieties, worries and problems in your subconscious will emerge, things that you don't really think about it that often, but which are there in the background impinging upon everything you do. They will prevent you from going further. If you go past them, then the unconscious will throw up other karmic issues you need to work though, issues you might have think you didn't even have. It is only after you have resolved all of this that you will reach anywhere near samadhi.

Meditation is a brilliant tool you can use for self-introspection, it is like putting a mirror up to your ego and finding out where you really are currently(rather than where you would like to be) The other great tool is dreams, this tells you what your subconscious really is doing --- this also the indicator of where you are going after you leave this body(death) The other great tool is what others say about you, other people. If you are constantly being told something by various people, then consider that the universe is speaking to you --- it is telling you something you need to learn about where you are at. Use all these mirrors to see who you really are currently.

Gradually, by developing non-attachment too all vrittis in your mind, when they no longer affect you, arise neither like or dislike, you can watch them with pure objectivity, will you overcome it. In fact you could say that Yoga sadhana is non-attachment in action. You gradually must develop non attachment for everything -- but can you be sure you will be able to maintain non-attachment all the way through? What happens when you have your first spiritual experiences like OBES, astral music, visions, siddhis or visitations by devas/devis? Will you be able to maintain non-attachment or will you waiver? We like to think we would maintain it, but that is very easy to say when you don't have something --- like I said earlier it is very easy for me to say I renounce being a movie star -- because I am not a movie star.

Developing brutal honesty with your Self or the yama of Satya is the biggest asset you can have on your journey.




I have met people claiming to be gurus, who were willing to take me on as their student, but I did not accept them as my guru. Just as Shankara gives you a list of qualifications of a student, he also gives you a list of qualifications of a guru, and nobody I have met thus far qualifies. There is only one man I met, of great spiritual attainment, ironically on the train ride back when I left the ashram. I talk to him from time to time and in respect I call him "guruji" It is rare to find true spiritual people, forget gurus.



I appreciate all advice you have given me. I just ask that it be done non-judgementally. Not just for myself, but others would be more forthcoming and frank in sharing their life experiences in an atmosphere of non jugemental people. Like you would be more likely to disclose in a support group or to a counsellor your deepest desires and dirtiest thoughts and experiences, than you would in a public place. I can disclose here because of the anonymity of the internet, otherwise I do not disclose to people who know me, unless I fully trust them --- there is only one best friend of mine who knows about my life story and my current path.



I know this is not good state to be in, the effects of my childhood to my early 20's, have had a lot of damage on me. I know because a few people claiming to be psychic have picked up on it, without me telling them anything, one even burst out into tears because the pain within me was too much for them to bear. I fear just how deep the emotional damage is and what are long term karmic effects. The last 15 or so years of my life has been my attempt to salvage my life, because I do not give up, that spirit in me is a fighting one, I refused to resign or commit suicide. In the last 15 years, I have pretty much try to do it all by myself, it has really only been me, because nobody really knows what I've been through other than a select few people I have told. The only area where I am blessed is my access to the scriptures, which I was guided to from my early teens, and since then I have been reading tons of shastras and literature. I have also been initiated formally in the Tantra path. It is ironic every spiritual path I joined was Tantra-derived and Shiva kept presenting him to me.

Even without Hinduism, it is recognised just how damaging chronic loneliness and emotional abuse is, I cannot go any further in my spirituality without first putting this setback right. I also need to get a proper job. Nothing right now in my life is working. I am nearing 40 with little to no proper friends, just loads of superficial acquaintances, not married and no relationship, no family, relatives and no job(but I do volunteer, to contribute something back to society) and I suffer from a host of health issues that have probably cut my life expectancy down a few decades. I am still fighting though.

Heh heh, vishwa darpana... my preaching style is coming back to smack me! How great Thou art, O Lord! Honey, Spirit_Warrior, this is not my first rodeo, as they say, and/but thanks for the reminders. I DO have, was blessed with, am in touch with, revere as God, the Guru. He gifts much.

You wrote you are formally initiated in your Tantra path. That is new news and decidedly tempers the discussion (for me). When I wished someone well in another forum here, I was soundly beaten about the head and shoulders for not being real--there was even a name for it, I forget. I couldn't care less. The Truth spoken or written by one who clings to Truth alone carries its own vibration. I pray you are blessed with the choicest cup of blessings, Spirit_Warrior. Namaste.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Arghh! Aupji, please supply translation beginning at Brahma satyam jagan-mithya.... I'm having to guess with my limited knowledge of Sanskrit. Thanks!

Yes, Sassymaa, I agree with Spirit_Warrior's translations.

'Yathā Soumya, ..': O young seeker, just like by knowing one lump of soil all things that have soil are known, the difference in name is but a distortion in the manner of speaking, the truth being that all is soil.

I am curious why he missed out one of the other major mahavakyas:

'Pranjanam Brahma" - Consciousness is Brahman

But what Aupmanyav is interpreting is Charvaka philosophy, which only accept matter as the only existence and everything else soul, god, reincarnation as nonsense. However, I am sure I am not the first on this forum to have pointed that out.

Simple, Spirit_Warrior, I do not believe this is correct. Consciousness is a bio-chemical activity.

I have many differences with Charvak philosophy. Mass/Matter is but a form of energy which is what we began with. Yes, I do not believe in soul, God, reincarnation. As I said, I am Brahman, the entity which constitutes all things in the universe, energy. It is true that you are not first to point this, nearly every one else has tried to change my views, here and elsewhere too , but as a Hindu I have the right to hold my own views - accept what I think is true and reject what I think is wrong. Lord Rama said '.. satyen nasti paramam padam.' (nothing is higher than truth). Lord Buddha said, "Kalamas, when you yourself know ..'

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. that this is indeed a valid, accepted and traditional path within Hinduism. It may not be mainstream Hinduism, it may even be a small minority sect, but indeed is path.

I accept that whole-heartedly that 'vama-marga' is a valid path, but differ with you on its purpose. Is it to satisfy carnal desires or is it to know the universal truth. If you think that it is to satisfy your carnal desires and then it would lead to your mental satisfaction, then I beg to differ. It does not happen that way. The desires will not cease, and time will come when your body would not be capable of enjoying them, be it sex or be it food and drink.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Ji

I agree with this analogy. We keep doing it, like the monkey that touches the electric fence over and over, expecting a different outcome, but get the same result. This is why the viveka and vairagaya analysis is the best and most accurate description of this pervasive human condition. Vairagaya will arise at some point, the question is when --- when does the monkey stop touching the electric fence?

monkey stops touching the fence when he develops Vairagya, .....when he ceases to find intrest , when he tires of the repetition ...yes it arises naturaly, but you ask when will it arrise ?...when also will Viveka arise ? ...whwn will we see the true nature of the self and of others , ....

when you speak of going out and enjoining in debauched behaviors neither Viveka or Vairagya are present in the mind this is why I dissagree with the tantric path as it can all to often be used to justify indulgence .

one capable of Viveka analasis sees the jiva soul in the self and in others and will not subject that soul to such forms of abuse he will imidiatly develop disgust for such actions Vairagya will arrise !

I think we all agree the highest desire here is the desire for self-realization. When that desire comes the mind has already reached a higher level of sattva ---

in some respects I do not agree , ....I canot help but to feel that the higest desire is to serve , ....one who is truely absorbed in seva thinks not even of his own liberation , he has forgoten the self , ...therefore the higest desire in some respects is to be free from all desire on a personal front , ..when I think of a truely satvic mind it is desireless on its own part .

there is more self control, mind control, withdrawal, faith, tolerance and single minded focus(sad-sampatti) However, prior to that highest stage there are intermediate desires between the lower base desire of sense gratification --- such as the desire for relationships, for true intimacy and soul connection with another person -- loka vasana. In my journey in meeting all these people who were seeking sex(like I was) what they all wanted deep down was "true love" Eventually, some of them do tire of that lifestyle and move on, while others stay there for years.

when self realises its own true nature and the true nature of others it can do nothing but controll the base instincts , ....

desiring relationships , desire for true intamacy can be many things to many people but if you speak of soul conection then it is some form of unity , .....unity with another as we can find unity with God , if there is a true soul conection it is seeing beyond the person and realising the jiva within, in which case this relationship can be none other than a caring relationship where the soulmate is put above or at least on an equal footing with the self , ....

It would be a very cynical thing to say that people do not find "true love" Of course we know that are many people who are in happy relationships, who love and care for each other, who want to die together. It does seem to be possible for some people. I have not found it yet, it is never mutual when I do find somebody I love, and when somebody loves me, I don't feel it for them. But I do wonder about even those "happy relationships" as I met loads of people in supposedly happy relationships with one another, and I have seem loads of cracks and fault lines. Is this human "true love" just a fiction that we hear in fairly tales and Bollywood movies, or does it really exist? Is my next stage of viveka to realise it does not really exist?

yes it exists , and yes there are many forms of love , to me the higest form of Viveka would be to realise that nothing but love exists , .....but this love is not the love we think we know , in our ignorance we canot understand this pure love , we will find it only by paring away all false conceptions .

Purifying the heart is really another way of saying purifying the chita -- chitta suddhi --

Jai Jai , ....certainly

or in terms of guna making the mind 100% sattvic. Nowhere does it say in shastra that this is possible in a single life time, in fact the rather depressing numbers of millions up millions of lifetimes is given.

plrase read the Gita , ....

Chapter 8, Verse 8...27
He who meditates on the Supreme Personality of Godhead, his mind constantly engaged in remembering Me, undeviated from the path, he, O Pārtha [Arjuna], is sure to reach Me.

One should meditate upon the Supreme Person as the one who knows everything, as He who is the oldest, who is the controller, who is smaller than the smallest, who is the maintainer of everything, who is beyond all material conception, who is inconceivable, and who is always a person. He is luminous like the sun and, being transcendental, is beyond this material nature.

One who, at the time of death, fixes his life air between the eyebrows and in full devotion engages himself in remembering the Supreme Lord, will certainly attain to the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Persons learned in the Vedas, who utter omkāra and who are great sages in the renounced order, enter into Brahman. Desiring such perfection, one practices celibacy. I shall now explain to you this process by which one may attain salvation.

The yogic situation is that of detachment from all sensual engagements. Closing all the doors of the senses and fixing the mind on the heart and the life air at the top of the head, one establishes himself in yoga.

After being situated in this yoga practice and vibrating the sacred syllable om, the supreme combination of letters, if one thinks of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and quits his body, he will certainly reach the spiritual planets.

For one who remembers Me without deviation, I am easy to obtain, O son of Pṛthā, because of his constant engagement in devotional service.

After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogīs in devotion, never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection.

From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kuntī, never takes birth again.

By human calculation, a thousand ages taken together is the duration of Brahmā's one day. And such also is the duration of his night.

When Brahmā's day is manifest, this multitude of living entities comes into being, and at the arrival of Brahmā's night they are all annihilated.

Again and again the day comes, and this host of beings is active; and again the night falls, O Pārtha, and they are helplessly dissolved.

Yet there is another nature, which is eternal and is transcendental to this manifested and unmanifested matter. It is supreme and is never annihilated. When all in this world is annihilated, that part remains as it is.

That supreme abode is called unmanifested and infallible, and it is the supreme destination. When one goes there, he never comes back. That is My supreme abode.

The Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is greater than all, is attainable by unalloyed devotion. Although He is present in His abode, He is all-pervading, and everything is situated within Him.

O best of the Bhāratas, I shall now explain to you the different times at which, passing away from this world, one does or does not come back.

Those who know the Supreme Brahman pass away from the world during the influence of the fiery god, in the light, at an auspicious moment, during the fortnight of the moon and the six months when the sun travels in the north.

The mystic who passes away from this world during the smoke, the night, the moonlight fortnight, or in the six months when the sun passes to the south, or who reaches the moon planet, again comes back.

According to the Vedas, there are two ways of passing from this world—one in light and one in darkness. When one passes in light, he does not come back; but when one passes in darkness, he returns.

The devotees who know these two paths, O Arjuna, are never bewildered. Therefore be always fixed in devotion.

Nor does it end at the human level itself, after that there is the stage of demi gods --- as it is said in -- all the way from a blade of grass to Brahma. At the human level the best one can achieve is the level of a saint.

from what I understand we attain what we aspire to , in the Gita Krsna warns that those who pray to the demigods go to the demigods , ...and that the pious return to take up saintly positions but all these positions atr temporary positions , ...

I definitely ain't no saint. I have warned a lot of people who sometimes get impressed with my knowledge and my spiritual realisations and see me like a guru, even tell me to start a ministry, to NEVER follow my example.

Knowledge alone as we discussed in first post can be of two kinds , Aquired Knowledge alone can be very dangerous as it inflates the ego and seperates on from the true self , only humility and renunciation can correct this affliction , .....

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram ji

if you would permit me to but in to other parts of the conversation , ....if I may , merly to clarfy what I have previously said , ...

Vedanta says that Brahman is sat-chit-ananda, it is pure consciousness.

please let us not forget Bliss , ...pure consciousness is to know Bliss, .....thus I had said ultimatly there is only love , ...

yes it exists , and yes there are many forms of love , to me the higest form of Viveka would be to realise that nothing but love exists , .....but this love is not the love we think we know , in our ignorance we canot understand this pure love , we will find it only by paring away all false conceptions .

I hope you had followed my intention to explain the inexplainable

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram ji

I know this is not good state to be in, the effects of my childhood to my early 20's, have had a lot of damage on me. I know because a few people claiming to be psychic have picked up on it, without me telling them anything, one even burst out into tears because the pain within me was too much for them to bear. I fear just how deep the emotional damage is and what are long term karmic effects. The last 15 or so years of my life has been my attempt to salvage my life, because I do not give up, that spirit in me is a fighting one, I refused to resign or commit suicide. In the last 15 years, I have pretty much try to do it all by myself, it has really only been me, because nobody really knows what I've been through other than a select few people I have told. The only area where I am blessed is my access to the scriptures, which I was guided to from my early teens, and since then I have been reading tons of shastras and literature. I have also been initiated formally in the Tantra path. It is ironic every spiritual path I joined was Tantra-derived and Shiva kept presenting him to me.

Even without Hinduism, it is recognised just how damaging chronic loneliness and emotional abuse is, I cannot go any further in my spirituality without first putting this setback right. I also need to get a proper job. Nothing right now in my life is working. I am nearing 40 with little to no proper friends, just loads of superficial acquaintances, not married and no relationship, no family, relatives and no job(but I do volunteer, to contribute something back to society) and I suffer from a host of health issues that have probably cut my life expectancy down a few decades. I am still fighting though.

again permit me to inturupt on another conversation , but this reminds me so much of a dear friend I have not seen in many years who's childhood was so painfull that it also led him on a symultanious path of self destruction and search for Vairagya ; freedom , .... I can only pray that the karmas which have caused these painfull births are now at their end , as when their reactions have worn them selves out as they must, and the effects of your attempts to overcome these obsticals will fructify , .....please , please , accept what ever blessings ,love and freindship we have to share , ....

 

[Spirit_Warrior]

I accept that whole-heartedly that 'vama-marga' is a valid path, but differ with you on its purpose. Is it to satisfy carnal desires or is it to know the universal truth. If you think that it is to satisfy your carnal desires and then it would lead to your mental satisfaction, then I beg to differ. It does not happen that way. The desires will not cease, and time will come when your body would not be capable of enjoying them, be it sex or be it food and drink.

I have never said the purpose of vama-marga is to satisfy carnal desires, in fact I said the opposite, the purpose is the overcome carnal desires with the aim of attaining realisation.

You are right about the time coming when the instruments of enjoyment will not longer work to be able to enjoy objects. It is told in detail in the Ayurveda texts which are the first organs to fail, decade by decade, in agreement with modern science. In my forays into these sleazy dens of carnal enjoyment, I was shocked to find people who were 60, 70 even 80 years old seeking the same, and I said to myself that If I am still here when I am their age, I will consider my life an absolute and utter failure. I have faith that I have enough spiritual maturity to eventually move on from the path of self-destruction that I have chosen, with the karmic bill at the end of it. I have given myself till 40 to exhaust this and wish me luck that I reach my goal. I am by no means saying what I am doing right now is virtuous.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Well, what can I say? It is your life. Be careful when you are satisfying/pandering to your carnal desires.

I just remember the story of Dhundhakari. As a 'preta', he could not stay at one place. So his brother, Gokarna had to fix a bamboo in ground and Dhundhakari stayed in one of its nodes to listen to Srimad Bhagawat Purana.

सच्ची प्रेत कथा: जीते जी न करें ये गलती अन्यथा आपके साथ भी होगा कुछ ऐसा -mobile

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

So if somebody asks you your name do you say "I am Atman, sat-chit-ananda" or do you say "I am Vandana Jyoti" If somebody asks you parents names do you say like Shankara's Atma Shatakam, "I have no mother, or father" or or do you say your parents names. Surely it is the latter in both cases. We may know the paramataka satyam(ultimate truth) that we are Brahman, but our everyday reality is vyahvarika satyam(empirical truth).

The exchanges in this thread have fascinated my mind. I find myself going back to reread this or that post or a section or quote, including those from the deep knowledge and sublime devotional well of Mata @ratikala ji's. I probably ought to closely examine granting to my mind this allowance to get so fascinated! Heh heh, oh well, I'll put that inquest off just a little while longer, it is kinda fun (sound familiar, Spirit_Warriorji? Dang, I'm bad!)

It is my firm belief that the phrases and statements we seed our minds with, that we implant and affirm if you will, matter because it is like melting color crayons into the chitta which hardens and becomes the platter or record we play when we put the needle of our attention on it. The grooves we dig thereby become our habits! Guruji taught this analogy. He said that when we have a spiritual experience, the chitta melts and we then have the opportunity to color it nicely with divine thoughts and images. This might be another reason to seek a multitude of spiritual rather than mundane experiences.

But the reason I pulled up this particular paragraph of yours (which was addressed to me but I neglected to respond, sorry) is to contest (again) your use of the word "are" (a state of being verb) to describe temporary conditions. I think it's important to try to point out the distinction, even if I bumble it. This was all in the context of my caution to not condition the mind unnecessarily with adjectives and adverbs used after the phrase "I am" vis a vis, "I'm sick, I'm happy, I'm sad, I'm a sinner...."

"The truth that we are at this moment in time, which will get negated gradually for higher truths. But if you do not accept the truth of what you are right now, you are opening yourself up for serious delusion."

The actually serious delusion here (and God designed it this way) is to think that one is anything other than Brahman, Satchidananda, Self... ever. This one statement alone indicates you have not yet, alas, experienced your "areness" in samadhi. Once he does, never again will a person look around and call what he sees when examined by the conditioned state of his instruments, "the Truth" (other than perhaps acknowledging the Truth of maya's apparent existence). Anyway, the Truth that we are transcends time and does not change. We are always That. That knowledge remains at the back of one's awareness, even when going about one's "life." There is no "higher Truth" or gradations of Truth. That's a mind trip. It's mind's nature to divide and classify, weigh this and that, compare. Truth is, was, will be. IMO, you are speaking only about facts, maya--the dynamic unfolding of the Story du jour--when you say some evolution of Truth is occurring. And my point was to diligently remind oneself as often as possible of the true nature of oneSelf, i.e., I AM eternal Truth-Awareness-Bliss.

 

[Spirit_Warrior]

namaskaram Ji

when you speak of going out and enjoining in debauched behaviors neither Viveka or Vairagya are present in the mind this is why I dissagree with the tantric path as it can all to often be used to justify indulgence .

That is why you need to numb the mind with alcohol. If you ever going to a club completely sober, your viveka will indeed be awake, and you will find it harder to enjoy yourself there. However, sometimes my viveka is awake even after I drink. As I said I have noted a lot of defects through the indulgence, it has just not reached critical mass yet for vairgaya to happen, but the very fact that I am even having this discussion here and now contemplating if not complete abandonment, but moderation of the path I am on, means that vairgaya is developing gradually. It be wonderful to be still alive 10 years later and say "I have been there, done that, got the t shirt"

when self realises its own true nature and the true nature of others it can do nothing but controll the base instincts , ....

desiring relationships , desire for true intamacy can be many things to many people but if you speak of soul conection then it is some form of unity , .....unity with another as we can find unity with God , if there is a true soul conection it is seeing beyond the person and realising the jiva within, in which case this relationship can be none other than a caring relationship where the soulmate is put above or at least on an equal footing with the self , ....

Yes, and as I said there are intermediate stages before you rise to the highest love for the Self. Even you, in your advocation of bhakti-marga, are talking of an intermediate stage, the love for ishvara, which Ramakrishna Paramhansa has reached the height of for his devotion to Kali, and then Kali herself gave him darshan to tell him to rise beyond her to the non-dual Self. I am not ready to rise to either, for me the next stage is to rise to love people, develop compassion and selfless service and action. As it said in the Upadesh Sara, the greatest love of Ishvara is not to love him through an idol, name or image, but through the entirety of nature, animals, people. A message that even guru Nanak popularised. When he was invited to the temple worship ritual, he strolled off into the night sky, and starting worshipping the stars himself, soon the whole congregation left the temple and joined Nanak in the worship of the stars.

yes it exists , and yes there are many forms of love , to me the higest form of Viveka would be to realise that nothing but love exists , .....but this love is not the love we think we know , in our ignorance we canot understand this pure love , we will find it only by paring away all false conceptions .

I agree. In NDE experiences the vast majority of people who have had positive experiences, have came back exclaiming the same that the universe is made out of love, love as a tangible all pervading essence. However, I am yet to rise to that level realisation -- what I have heard about is not yet my knowledge.

 

[Spirit_Warrior]

plrase read the Gita , ....

Ok, but I will read it critically, because there are some finer points and nuances that have to be understood which are not evident in the literal text itself.

He who meditates on the Supreme Personality of Godhead, his mind constantly engaged in remembering Me, undeviated from the path, he, O Pārtha [Arjuna], is sure to reach Me.

Notice the word constantly engaged in remembering God, never deviating. How many people constantly remember God, how many people have reached the highest level of bhakti to constantly be intoxicated with the divine? We hear about people like this only in stories, like Nanak, Mirabhai, Ramakrishna paramhansa. They are very rare to come by. Let us accept our practical reality -- the very first thing we worry about is security, providing food, shelter and water. A starving, homeless and thirsty man will not be thinking of God. After that we worry about relationships, making friends, finding love and belonging because we don't want to be lonely. An unloved lonely man will not be thinking about God. After that, we worry about creative pursuits, finding hobbies that we enjoy, art, entertainment. A man who is bored, will not be thinking about God.

What is my point? My point is we can't jump intermediate stages in our evolution. We can hear and admire these stories of great saints who were drunk in the love of God, but they themselves did not get there in one single go, they went through lifetimes of evolution. This is why I do not agree with imposing bhakti-marga on somebody when God isn't what they are seeking at that stage.

One who, at the time of death, fixes his life air between the eyebrows and in full devotion engages himself in remembering the Supreme Lord, will certainly attain to the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

I completely agree with this. If at the time of death you are thinking only about God and nothing else, then you surely will attain to God. However, the catch 22 here is, to be thinking about God at the time of your death, means you will have to be thinking of God before your death too, in fact for all your life. Nanak did not achieve the state of constant remembrance of God later on his life, he was born with a very strong yearning for God, hence why he seeked the company(sangat) of saints. As I said earlier though the gunas are not fixed, they are largely determinant in what kind of body and mind you will have in this life, and if from birth you do not have sattvic qualities, you are going to find it very hard to transform your mind in a single lifetime. Hinduism takes a very long term view of spiritual development spanning millions of lifetimes, in fact in some cases it can be several cycles of creation. It is hard for our ego to accept this, because our ego wants everything right now. However, our sages advised us to be patient.

What we think about at the time of death is not under our control, just as our dreams are not under control. The pranas withdraw from the conscious into the subconscious and we go into a dream like state, in which our subconscious plays out our entire life from beginning to end(known as life review in NDE research) and our deepest desires play out. At the end of this review it is the resultant pull of our desires that take us to our next body. If God is not your deepest desire, then there is no way you are going to attain to God.

For one who remembers Me without deviation, I am easy to obtain,

O son of Pṛthā, because of his constant engagement in devotional service.

After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogīs in devotion, never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection.

I think a lot of his devotees are fooling themselves. By shaving your head, wearing a dhoti, chanting Hare Rama and Hare Krishna everyday or Om Namo Vasudevaya, eating only sattvic vegetarian food I only see a pretence of spirituality, and what a waste of time of ones life on Earth. If truly these people were so spiritually elevated, then why is it that the majority of this ilk that I meet are stupid people? I mean really stupid, especially the missionaries preaching on the street, believing in conspiracy theories like we did not land on the moon and in geocentric earth theories which we have surpassed and laid to rest. I see immense hypocrisy too. I have lived with these so-called sattvic people at different periods of my life and I have found to be the worst of people. As I said, I have met more spiritual people in bars and pubs, or on trains.

My greatest realisation while at the ashram was to realise what spirituality was and what spirituality wasn't. It wasn't cutting of yourself from society, living in an ashram, and praying and reading scripture everyday --- that is nothing more than spiritual escapism. I realised it was about living life, it was about contributing to progress of society, it was dealing with your desires and challenges in life, and that is why I left the ashram.

Note something about all our great Maharishis and sages, they were at the same inventors, dramatists, scientists. Maharishi Panini, wrote the worlds first formal system, the Ashtadhaya, wrote a commentary to Maharishi Patanjali's Yoga sutras, which itself was a treatise on psychology and also wrote on chemistry and engineering. Maharishi Bharhari wrote a treatise on drama, the Natyashastra. Maharishi Kananda, wrote a treatise on physics, the Vaiseshika Sutras. The list goes on.

Even consider Krishna's advice to Arjuna. When Arjuna said he would rather follow the pure sattvic path beg for his alms, live as an ascetic, Krishna advised him against it, rather he told him to continue living in the world fulfilling his duties as a warrior, to fight wars, to protect his citizens.

If we go by this logic Tesla, Einstein, Schrodinger et al are more spiritual than say Srila Prabhupada. They have contributed to knowledge and progress of all of humanity.

My viewpoints have matured and changed over the years now. I realise spirituality is about the progress of the human species and playing your part in advancing humanity in all regards science, technology, socially, environmentally so that we emerge as an advanced civilisation in the community of planets, on which our shastras say other advanced humans live. The point is to go forwards and not backwards, and I am afraid a lot of these ashrams in India are stuck in a time-warp which has not progressed beyond the medieval age. The descriptions of the sat-yuga in our shastras on a planet does not describe a pre-modern, rural age, but an advanced age with flying crafts(vimanas) weapons of mass destruction((divyastras) machines(yantras) robots(yantra machines) metal cities, classless society and interplanetary travel. It is like something from a modern day science-fiction novel. If this was ever once true, we won't know anytime soon, but it does reveal a very scientific and progressive vision for humans.

from what I understand we attain what we aspire to , in the Gita Krsna warns that those who pray to the demigods go to the demigods , ...and that the pious return to take up saintly positions but all these positions atr temporary positions , ...

So my problem here is again you seem be leaping forward many stages ahead without going through the intermediate stages. The shastra says the demigods are higher than humans, the shastras enumerates millions of stages of evolution from a single blade of glass to the highest stage of evolution Lord Brahma. This itself is a function of the gunas of the mind. The higher planes of existence up to lord Brahma are dominated by sattvo guna. The intermediate planes by rajo-guna and our earthly plane by tamo-guna. If even the demigods are not seeking God but enjoying the subtle pleasures of the higher planes, then what makes you think humans can skip that stage and jump even past lord Brahma stage, straight to absolute Brahman? Imagine the monkey thinking it can leapfrog past the human stage right up to absolute Brahman without passing the intermediate stages --- we humans would think it be to be a very foolish monkey. Somebody with an IQ of 80 cannot jump to an of 140 no matter how much effort the exert. If you try to get a 2 old kid to do algebra, no matter how much you try, you can't get it to do it, because first it has to learn to count.

In our shatras it clearly shows that evolution is continuous and linear process going up from a blade of grass to Lord Brahma and there are no short cuts. In the human stages there is evolution through the four stages of sudra, vaishya, kshatriya and brahmin. It never says that a sudra could jump straight to be a brahmin, rather it says a sudra if they do good karma, can in the next life move to vaishya. Just as you cannot jump from age 5 to 50, likewise we cannot jump the intermediate stages. As humans we have a long way to go before we even graduate past the human stage.

Knowledge alone as we discussed in first post can be of two kinds , Aquired Knowledge alone can be very dangerous as it inflates the ego and seperates on from the true self , only humility and renunciation can correct this affliction , .....

This is exactly my point too. We have been given the highest knowledge, because of the advanced religion that we belong to, all the way up to Brahman. We have been given the absolute truth(paramatika satyam) The problem is this -- we are nowhere near that stage -- if even the siddhas and the atharsattas have not reached that stage when they at a far more advanced level then we are with far more more refined intellect -- if we use the analogy of IQ if our highest human IQ is 150, there's is 2000, then it goes to show that we trying to run before we can walk.

Having the paramatika satyam at this level is as good as giving a 2 year a book on calculus, and as dangerous as giving 2 year old control of a nuclear missile silo. Just look at the neo-advaita scene, it is full of people self-conceited, arrogant, deluded and self-centred people proclaiming "I am the non-dual truth" Shankara realised that we were not ready for this absolute truth, which is why he parted ways from Gaudapada and made room for vyahvarika satyam, provisional or empirical reality. That is the reality that is the most important for you right now --- who you are right now at this moment and time is the most important truth.

 

[ratikala]

Namaskaram Ji

That is why you need to numb the mind with alcohol. If you ever going to a club completely sober, your viveka will indeed be awake, and you will find it harder to enjoy yourself there. However, sometimes my viveka is awake even after I drink. As I said I have noted a lot of defects through the indulgence, it has just not reached critical mass yet for vairgaya to happen, but the very fact that I am even having this discussion here and now contemplating if not complete abandonment, but moderation of the path I am on, means that vairgaya is developing gradually. It be wonderful to be still alive 10 years later and say "I have been there, done that, got the t shirt"

I understand what you are saying , .....even under the influence of copious amounts of intoxicants there must be moments of extreme clarity, what worries me more is the dulling effect on the sences not just of the alcahol or other whilst imbibing it but the dedening efect on the entire physicality as it leves one so low afterwads , ...

However heres wishing you make at least anouther 20 years in which to put it all behind you , ....even the need to lay claim to the t shirt , ....

Yes, and as I said there are intermediate stages before you rise to the highest love for the Self. Even you, in your advocation of bhakti-marga, are talking of an intermediate stage, the love for ishvara,

certainly yes there will be intermediate states , ....personaly I dont know if I am talking about love for isvara , .I do not want to lay claim to any particular state , ...I am or was talking about love itself not so much love for Isvara but more love of Isvara , Isvara as the embodiment of the higest perfection to me is more of an ideal capable of personification rather than a personality in the common sence that most counjour to meditate upon , .....not that there is anything wrong in this as each need to invisage the supreme in a way understandable to them selves this is all part of the process , ...you talk about having met fakes or less than perfect devotees this I hope you understand and forgive as is also a part of the process , they too are trying to be the perfect devotee , it is often only when we stop trying to be , ...trying to appear , to act , .....that we actualy just get on with it , ...it is all a part of the many intermediate states , ...

....which Ramakrishna Paramhansa has reached the height of for his devotion to Kali, and then Kali herself gave him darshan to tell him to rise beyond her to the non-dual Self. I am not ready to rise to either, for me the next stage is to rise to love people, develop compassion and selfless service and action. As it said in the Upadesh Sara, the greatest love of Ishvara is not to love him through an idol, name or image, but through the entirety of nature, animals, people. A message that even guru Nanak popularised. When he was invited to the temple worship ritual, he strolled off into the night sky, and starting worshipping the stars himself, soon the whole congregation left the temple and joined Nanak in the worship of the stars.

Jai Jai this is perfect , ....only when we realise that Isvara is allpervasive , ....omnipresent , omnipotent and omnicient , ...that we can as realy taste the joy of his presence , but we have to want to see him , ....how can we say we are lonely when he is allaround us ? ....if we are lonely then it is because we are bilnd , but this blindness is the blindness of ignorance , many of the Bhakti saints have cryed for the mercy of this divine sight , to see and never be seperated , ...

I agree. In NDE experiences the vast majority of people who have had positive experiences, have came back exclaiming the same that the universe is made out of love, love as a tangible all pervading essence. However, I am yet to rise to that level realisation -- what I have heard about is not yet my knowledge.

I think you can reach that point of experiencing that all encompasing love through meditation also, ....

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

...provisional or empirical reality. That is the reality that is the most important for you right now --- who you are right now at this moment and time is the most important truth.

Balderdash and poppycock. Provisional or empirical reality is the most important to me, to anyone, right now, even ever? Please speak for yourself and the rest of the population hoofing it 'round and 'round in the squirrel cage. Time isn't an eternal truth at all, let alone the most important one. Nyet.

 

[Spirit_Warrior]

Balderdash and poppycock. Provisional or empirical reality is the most important to me, to anyone, right now, even ever? Please speak for yourself and the rest of the population hoofing it 'round and 'round in the squirrel cage. Time isn't an eternal truth at all, let alone the most important one. Nyet.

But the reason I pulled up this particular paragraph of yours (which was addressed to me but I neglected to respond, sorry) is to contest (again) your use of the word "are" (a state of being verb) to describe temporary conditions. I think it's important to try to point out the distinction, even if I bumble it. This was all in the context of my caution to not condition the mind unnecessarily with adjectives and adverbs used after the phrase "I am" vis a vis, "I'm sick, I'm happy, I'm sad, I'm a sinner...."

Yes "I am the absolute, the imperishable, eternal, the substratum , the pure, the unattached" ---- oh wait, I need to go pooo.....

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

Yes "I am the absolute, the imperishable, eternal, the substratum , the pure, the unattached" ---- oh wait, I need to go pooo.....

LOL, this I rises to the bait of debate yet again; yer quite the fisherman, S_W. Wait, we're not allowed to debate here, so I can't use that word even if I likes it for the alliteration.

Alright. The first 'I' doesn't poop and the second one is usually full of it (ref: egos in general). Those two I's are not the same. One of them misidentifies itself 100% of the time. Ego plus God appears as man. Man minus ego is God.

 

[Spirit_Warrior]

LOL, this I rises to the bait of debate yet again; yer quite the fisherman, S_W. Wait, we're not allowed to debate here, so I can't use that word even if I likes it for the alliteration.

Alright. The first 'I' doesn't poop and the second one is usually full of it (ref: egos in general). Those two I's are not the same. One of them misidentifies itself 100% of the time. Ego plus God appears as man. Man minus ego is God.

Hehe, please stop me when I start debating. I am rather discussing my position, that it is redundant to identify with Brahman as infinite, absolute, pure etc. Yes, it is true you are Brahman, it is true Hitler is also Brahman, it is true Jack the ripper is Brahman, it is true ISIS is Brahman, but saying it is redundant, because it not going to change how we deal with them in our everyday life, we are still going to root out evil like Hitler, execute murders like Jack the Ripper and defeat terror groups like ISIS. You are still going to write on your forms your name, your parents name, your nationality etc.

In the end it is always going to be about your empirical/provisional ego. Rather than allowing myself to become deluded by grandiose notions like I am God, id rather focus on who I am right now in hope that after overcoming all my challenges that I become a god at some point in my long spiritual evolution.

There is a difference between potential and actual.

I think I have made my case and If I say more I will just be debating

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

Hehe, please stop me when I start debating. I am rather discussing my position, that it is redundant to identify with Brahman as infinite, absolute, pure etc. Yes, it is true you are Brahman, it is true Hitler is also Brahman, it is true Jack the ripper is Brahman, it is true ISIS is Brahman, but saying it is redundant, because it not going to change how w deal with the them in our everyday life, we are still going to root out evil like Hitler, execute murders like Jack the Ripper and defeat terror groups like ISIS. You are still going to write on your forms your name, your parents name, your nationality etc.

In the end it is always going to be about your empirical/provisional ego. Rather than allowing myself to become deluded by grandiose notions like I am God, id rather focus on who I am right in hope that after overcoming all my challenges that I become a god at some point in my long spiritual evolution.

There is a difference between potential and actual.

I think I have made my case and If I say more I will just be debating

You weren't debating, no I was just playing around and indeed, you have put forth your case. You are hereby given--just in case you didn't feel you had it already--full permission to have it "always be about your ego." You can titillate and study the minutiae of your ego's reception and interpretation of your life and lives' experiences while acquiring and divesting yourself of bodies clear on into the next Kaliyuga... and you still will be not realizing the Self. Tatastu, that is your path, I leave you to it and still wish you well.

What? Double entendre? Hehe, well maybe just a little.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Ji

Ok, but I will read it critically, because there are some finer points and nuances that have to be understood which are not evident in the literal text itself.

agreed yes there are many levels upon which the Gita can be understood as it is a song , athing of great beauty in which we see new meanigs and reflections each time we read it , this is very much due to our own state of mind which often procludes the finer points untill a time when we are most in need of them , or are at our most receptive , ...

do not forget tat Gita is often called Gitopanisaid , ... thus we should sit at the feet of a lerned master and listen , by learned master I mean one who loves every word as they love Krsna himself as only they will be able to inpart the true meaning in its fullness , ...again we return to love , ....as with Viveka there is a distinction between the material word and the word of Krsna we must let this word of Krsna penitrate the heart , .....to many times I hear over heated debates on the merits of this or that translation , yet there is not the inclination to extract the true nectar , ....

Notice the word constantly engaged in remembering God, never deviating. How many people constantly remember God, how many people have reached the highest level of bhakti to constantly be intoxicated with the divine? We hear about people like this only in stories, like Nanak, Mirabhai, Ramakrishna paramhansa. They are very rare to come by. Let us accept our practical reality -- the very first thing we worry about is security, providing food, shelter and water. A starving, homeless and thirsty man will not be thinking of God. After that we worry about relationships, making friends, finding love and belonging because we don't want to be lonely. An unloved lonely man will not be thinking about God. After that, we worry about creative pursuits, finding hobbies that we enjoy, art, entertainment. A man who is bored, will not be thinking about God.

there is also the instance that the hungry man remembers God and asks the lord what he as done to bring his own self to this pittifull situation , thus and he asks for the lords mercy just as the unloved man asks for the lords love as he realises all worldly loves to be facile , ...
and I too enjoy Art , but more so if it has some reflective or inspirational content , if Art is merly comercial it bores me senceless , even worse , if it is an expression of the ego craving attention , ..it is none other than a celebration of the lower self , .....even the artist is trying to capture something , he may not know what , he is looking for that essence , which makes me think of Krsna when he describes his own presence as the primary force in all things , ...''I am the taste of water and the light of the sun''.....''I am the sound in ether and ability in man .''

What is my point? My point is we can't jump intermediate stages in our evolution. We can hear and admire these stories of great saints who were drunk in the love of God, but they themselves did not get there in one single go, they went through lifetimes of evolution.

if you convince your self of this it will be so , ....

This is why I do not agree with imposing bhakti-marga on somebody when God isn't what they are seeking at that stage.

far be it from me to impose Bhakti , .....please beg my pardon but I was merely enthusing , ....if it suits you to find the supreme by mathmatical equasions I would be equaly glad , ...but if you seek some form of oneness or fredom from the isolation of duality , ....and as you said earlier you would be content at this point to find some love or comfort in the association with others then this too is Bhakti as to love and to serve others is also to serve the supreme .

I completely agree with this. If at the time of death you are thinking only about God and nothing else, then you surely will attain to God. However, the catch 22 here is, to be thinking about God at the time of your death, means you will have to be thinking of God before your death too, in fact for all your life.

this is why some enforce chanting and acts that incline rememberance appon them selves in order to habituate them selves with remembering , ...

Nanak did not achieve the state of constant remembrance of God later on his life, he was born with a very strong yearning for God, hence why he seeked the company(sangat) of saints. As I said earlier though the gunas are not fixed, they are largely determinant in what kind of body and mind you will have in this life, and if from birth you do not have sattvic qualities, you are going to find it very hard to transform your mind in a single lifetime. Hinduism takes a very long term view of spiritual development spanning millions of lifetimes, in fact in some cases it can be several cycles of creation. It is hard for our ego to accept this, because our ego wants everything right now. However, our sages advised us to be patient.

it is not just a case of ego wanting it , ego normaly wants independance , it rebels against oneness incase it becomes disolved , ego may like the apperance of being spiritual but in many ways it is a deceipt , ....

these qualities the Gunas that you keep mentioning they are governed by thoughts and actions one may be born predominantly Rajasic but that quality can be swayed either way add a little Tamas the energy of Rajas can become sturborn and un mooving , add a little Sattva to Rajas it becomes lighter less passionatly dissordered more passionatly intent upon creating apositive attitude , .....

you actualy have a very good ability to change the ballance this is what the ayurveda is all about Ayurveda is the tool with which to tame the physical body and Yoga to tame the mind

What we think about at the time of death is not under our control, just as our dreams are not under control. The pranas withdraw from the conscious into the subconscious and we go into a dream like state, in which our subconscious plays out our entire life from beginning to end(known as life review in NDE research) and our deepest desires play out. At the end of this review it is the resultant pull of our desires that take us to our next body. If God is not your deepest desire, then there is no way you are going to attain to God.

all this wishing to attain God on ones death bed is like wanting to marry a girl for her money .....selfish , ...one should love God because God is Gloriourious , ...dare I say it All Attractive , ...if you do not see god as all attractive then it will be a lie you will always be trying to cheat the system to get the result you want , ....

I think a lot of his devotees are fooling themselves.

Agreed , ..yes , ....but they have to do this to find out that God is not so easily won

By shaving your head, wearing a dhoti, chanting Hare Rama and Hare Krishna everyday or Om Namo Vasudevaya, eating only sattvic vegetarian food I only see a pretence of spirituality, and what a waste of time of ones life on Earth. If truly these people were so spiritually elevated, then why is it that the majority of this ilk that I meet are stupid people?

but you know this God , ....especialy Krsna is very mercifull we can win over even the most stupid of cheaters , he will even play with his devotees , I have seen some amazing things happen even stupid people can become smart , but too I have met some who think that they can be clever and deliberatly cheat and ones who treat others unfairly , these Krsna evades , ....

I mean really stupid, especially the missionaries preaching on the street, believing in conspiracy theories like we did not land on the moon and in geocentric earth theories which we have surpassed and laid to rest. I see immense hypocrisy too. I have lived with these so-called sattvic people at different periods of my life and I have found to be the worst of people. As I said, I have met more spiritual people in bars and pubs, or on trains.

Oh I have lived with them too I have lived with deluded Buddhists and I have lived with controling Hindus , I had to leave them behind but always I have been the winner because one trying to manipulate situation A, drove me into the arms of the other then the other tried to convert the already converted , ....because I do not try to give a specific singliar name to the supreme . he will come in which ever form he pleases ,....

but the greatest leson for me was trying to understand and forgive other peoples foibles , ..providing they wernt too dangerously out of order in that they were seriously hurting or delluding others , even in this instance I lernt that all you can do is to prey that they wake up , ....

My greatest realisation while at the ashram was to realise what spirituality was and what spirituality wasn't. It wasn't cutting of yourself from society, living in an ashram, and praying and reading scripture everyday --- that is nothing more than spiritual escapism. I realised it was about living life, it was about contributing to progress of society, it was dealing with your desires and challenges in life, and that is why I left the ashram.

some people need the dicipline of a comunity , ..and sadly sometimes if toomany undiciplined people come togerher it is not such a positive place for a person of a different disposition , ...I agree with you entirely about living life and contributing to society , ....some thies this is the harder path as I think you are finding at present , ...

but as you have said this is perhaps a turning point for you , ...

this is getting long so will continue , ....

 

[ratikala]

I

Even consider Krishna's advice to Arjuna. When Arjuna said he would rather follow the pure sattvic path beg for his alms, live as an ascetic, Krishna advised him against it, rather he told him to continue living in the world fulfilling his duties as a warrior, to fight wars, to protect his citizens.

this is perhaps confusing Gunas with Ashamas , ....as a Kshatria Arjuna must perform his duty for the sake of Dharma there is no mistaking this but he can do this with satvic or pure nature balanced with a little Rajas

If we go by this logic Tesla, Einstein, Schrodinger et al are more spiritual than say Srila Prabhupada. They have contributed to knowledge and progress of all of humanity.

Here I may dissagree in that Einstein and Shrodinger to me are speculative thinkers , enquiring physicists , to me the study of matter although facinating is the opposite approach to the devotee who has a personal relationship with the creator of matter and whos concern is the nature of the creator rather than that of matter itself , ...

My viewpoints have matured and changed over the years now. I realise spirituality is about the progress of the human species and playing your part in advancing humanity in all regards science, technology, socially, environmentally so that we emerge as an advanced civilisation in the community of planets, on which our shastras say other advanced humans live.

to me the most advanced human being is the one who is free from attatcment anger and ignorance , ...I am not so much one for technology especialy seeing as we abuse it so for our own presonal gain , ...it seems at times to bring out the worst of human nature

The point is to go forwards and not backwards, and I am afraid a lot of these ashrams in India are stuck in a time-warp which has not progressed beyond the medieval age. The descriptions of the sat-yuga in our shastras on a planet does not describe a pre-modern, rural age, but an advanced age with flying crafts(vimanas) weapons of mass destruction((divyastras) machines(yantras) robots(yantra machines) metal cities, classless society and interplanetary travel. It is like something from a modern day science-fiction novel. If this was ever once true, we won't know anytime soon, but it does reveal a very scientific and progressive vision for humans.

this is another conversation , ...but as everything goes in cycles , .....it could as easily be describing a past age as an age to come , ....our only problem as human beings is thinking ourselves superior , therefore thinking we are eternaly evolving for the better , ...

So my problem here is again you seem be leaping forward many stages ahead without going through the intermediate stages. The shastra says the demigods are higher than humans, the shastras enumerates millions of stages of evolution from a single blade of glass to the highest stage of evolution Lord Brahma. This itself is a function of the gunas of the mind. The higher planes of existence up to lord Brahma are dominated by sattvo guna. The intermediate planes by rajo-guna and our earthly plane by tamo-guna. If even the demigods are not seeking God but enjoying the subtle pleasures of the higher planes, then what makes you think humans can skip that stage and jump even past lord Brahma stage, straight to absolute Brahman? Imagine the monkey thinking it can leapfrog past the human stage right up to absolute Brahman without passing the intermediate stages ---

personaly I dont nececarily follow this line of thinking , ...if the monkey is more inteligent than the man then it does not matter who thinks one or other is foolish or that the human form is the be all and end all , .....inteligence to me is more than IQ that is functionality according to some people I am very stupid because I cant spell that dosent proclude me form spiritual awareness and if we are to speak of Brahma he foolishly thought himself to be the only Brahma and was shocked to find that there were countless Brahma' one for each individual universe , ....thus Brahma is only a manifest portion of creation which is an eternal cycle , ...if one realises the supreme and understands the cyclic nature that exists within his eternal being then that cycle is by passed and the manifest lord of that cycle equaly is by passed , ...

we humans would think it be to be a very foolish monkey. Somebody with an IQ of 80 cannot jump to an of 140 no matter how much effort the exert. If you try to get a 2 old kid to do algebra, no matter how much you try, you can't get it to do it, because first it has to learn to count.

I canot do algebra , but I can find God , ....perhaps I could learn if i thought it was important , that is what a child does it tries to please and to excell we can all explore through differnt methodology but ultimatly what is there to find ?

In our shatras it clearly shows that evolution is continuous and linear process going up from a blade of grass to Lord Brahma and there are no short cuts. In the human stages there is evolution through the four stages of sudra, vaishya, kshatriya and brahmin. It never says that a sudra could jump straight to be a brahmin, rather it says a sudra if they do good karma, can in the next life move to vaishya. Just as you cannot jump from age 5 to 50, likewise we cannot jump the intermediate stages. As humans we have a long way to go before we even graduate past the human stage.

liniar or cyclic , ....

personaly I feel that this approach is some what simplified karma and its effects on varnas are more complex , ....

Having the paramatika satyam at this level is as good as giving a 2 year a book on calculus, and as dangerous as giving 2 year old control of a nuclear missile silo. Just look at the neo-advaita scene, it is full of people self-conceited, arrogant, deluded and self-centred people proclaiming "I am the non-dual truth" Shankara realised that we were not ready for this absolute truth, which is why he parted ways from Gaudapada and made room for vyahvarika satyam, provisional or empirical reality. That is the reality that is the most important for you right now --- who you are right now at this moment and time is the most important truth.

now perhaps you see why I say Bhakti Marg over the self conceited proclaimation of some neo advaitins who to me have only Aquired knowledge upon which the are willing to speculate , ...Bhakti Marg needs no pretence and is open to all litterate or illiterate we can even overlook Varna Krsna resides in the heart of all , ...you know this , ....all you have to do is go out in world and look for the goodness in people try to bring it to the fore , give it some space to florish this is what it is to be human , .....this is all one needs to know , ...

Bhakti Marg is just the path of loving Devotion , ....finding our true selves , ...cyclical because it is eternaly so we are none other than this we just need to become reunited with that which we have forgotten , .....

 

[Spirit_Warrior]

there is also the instance that the hungry man remembers God and asks the lord what he as done to bring his own self to this pittifull situation , thus and he asks for the lords mercy just as the unloved man asks for the lords love as he realises all worldly loves to be facile , ...

In desperation yes he may pray to God, but still if he does no get food he will die. You have to remember in the world millions die every year from starvation, and if they are praying to God, it really has made no difference. A poor, starving and homeless man will quickly run to a free food shelter than a temple. It is just common sense. Hence, my point, that we are not looking for God at the lower and intermediate stage, we need to pass many stages of first human goals, before we come to God. Hence, why in our tradition we have recognised kama, artha and dharma before moksha.

and I too enjoy Art , but more so if it has some reflective or inspirational content , if Art is merly comercial it bores me senceless , even worse , if it is an expression of the ego craving attention , ..it is none other than a celebration of the lower self , .....even the artist is trying to capture something , he may not know what , he is looking for that essence , which makes me think of Krsna when he describes his own presence as the primary force in all things , ...''I am the taste of water and the light of the sun''.....''I am the sound in ether and ability in man .'

I agree, that spiritual art, art that connects you to the Self is the most beautiful. However, this is not the art that some of the most celebrated artists of recent times were interested in, such as Picasso. For them it began with art about the human condition. For children it is not spiritual art either, it is comic books, pokemon or manga. As you can see when we rise beyond security, and relationships and entertainment and art, again God is not yet in the picture. Nobody really needs God until they reach the final stages of their evolution.

if you convince your self of this it will be so , ....

No, this is what shastra is saying and it is logical. Even when Ramana Maharishi was asked how did he achieve the higher states of meditation he could easily go into, he said that it was perhaps due to a past lives in which he developed this. We Hindus believe in evolution in every regard, pass characteristics are passed from body to body. Nanak in his previous life may not yet have been known to the world, but in next life he passed an important milestone based on past work.

far be it from me to impose Bhakti , .....please beg my pardon but I was merely enthusing , ....if it suits you to find the supreme by mathmatical equasions I would be equaly glad , ...but if you seek some form of oneness or fredom from the isolation of duality , ....and as you said earlier you would be content at this point to find some love or comfort in the association with others then this too is Bhakti as to love and to serve others is also to serve the supreme .

I am not saying you are imposing bhakti on me. I am saying that imposing bhakti on somebody that does not need God at that moment in their life is not proper. Give a hungry man some food, a lonely man some company, a bored man some entertainment, and they will appreciate you far more, than handing them a copy of the Bhagvad Gita. All I am saying that as humans we more humble goals to achieve than God-realization or Self-realization.

this is why some enforce chanting and acts that incline rememberance appon them selves in order to habituate them selves with remembering , ...

I get this, but I think it is like trying to get a 2 year old to do algebra. If your challenges in your life at the moment are mundane and human, then it is better helping you in these regard, than giving a mantra to chant to remember God.

these qualities the Gunas that you keep mentioning they are governed by thoughts and actions one may be born predominantly Rajasic but that quality can be swayed either way add a little Tamas the energy of Rajas can become sturborn and un mooving , add a little Sattva to Rajas it becomes lighter less passionatly dissordered more passionatly intent upon creating apositive attitude , .....

you actualy have a very good ability to change the ballance this is what the ayurveda is all about Ayurveda is the tool with which to tame the physical body and Yoga to tame the mind

I completely agree with you with have systems like Yoga and Ayurveda in place to transform our gunas, but the question is to what extent can you transform? Again recall my IQ analogy. Can somebody with an IQ of 80 really jump to an IQ of 140 in a single lifetime? As much our ego would think to think so, the research shows us it is close to impossible. IQ is largely determined at birth. In like manner, our shastras say our gunas are largely determined at birth, and there are limits to how much you can cultivate them in a single life time. You mentioned Ayurveda, well in Ayurveda the prakriti you were born with never changes in a single lifetime, only vikriti changes(i.e. you dohas can go out of balance)

For some people meditation is not even prescribed. Try to get somebody who has ADHD to sit and meditate. No matter how much you try you will very find it very difficult, because their gunas will not allow it. The same is true for bhakti, for somebody who has strong tamas, bhakti is repugnant. In my case tamas is strong, so when you go into these beautiful descriptions of Krishna, all-attractive, plays with his devotees, all loving, oh how great is his lila with a big of girly giggle, rather than inspiring me, it just makes me go bleh. I am not ready for Krishna. Shiva is more inspiring for me because of the metaphor that he represents of man becoming god, of man living in the world and conquering their desires and vices, and fully transforming himself. It does not necessarily mean that I want to worship Shiva, but I certainly want to become him .

all this wishing to attain God on ones death bed is like wanting to marry a girl for her money .....selfish , ...one should love God because God is Gloriourious , ...dare I say it All Attractive , ...if you do not see god as all attractive then it will be a lie you will always be trying to cheat the system to get the result you want , ....

This was my point. You cannot remember God on your death bed, if you did not remember him in your life all the time. You are given practices in bhakti-marga to remember him, to chant his name, to sing his glories, to read about him all the time so that your mind constantly remembers him, but still you cannot remember him all the time, sometimes your mind is thinking about what to eat and cook tonight, what somebody just said to you, about the promotion at work, about where you are going on holiday next year, about the problems the world is throwing at you. In the end there are more important things in your life, more pressing affairs and matters than Krishna .

Agreed , ..yes , ....but they have to do this to find out that God is not so easily won

It is all a function of gunas. If you have more sattva guna you will obtain God more easier than those who have loads of rajas and tamas. Most of us have rajas and tamas as the the dominant gunas, and though we try to change that mixture, there are limits to how much we change them in a single lifetime.

but you know this God , ....especialy Krsna is very mercifull we can win over even the most stupid of cheaters , he will even play with his devotees , I have seen some amazing things happen even stupid people can become smart , but too I have met some who think that they can be clever and deliberatly cheat and ones who treat others unfairly , these Krsna evades , ....

Oh I have lived with them too I have lived with deluded Buddhists and I have lived with controling Hindus , I had to leave them behind but always I have been the winner because one trying to manipulate situation A, drove me into the arms of the other then the other tried to convert the already converted , ....because I do not try to give a specific singliar name to the supreme . he will come in which ever form he pleases ,....

but the greatest leson for me was trying to understand and forgive other peoples foibles , ..providing they wernt too dangerously out of order in that they were seriously hurting or delluding others , even in this instance I lernt that all you can do is to prey that they wake up , ....

To me this is saying something. The efficacy of something is shown by how many people it was effective for. Like for example a medicine, how many people did it treat. If I treated loads of people with the same condition, then I am likely to try it out myself too. But when I can see that on pure right-hand-paths that billions of people the world are trying to follow immense stupidity, fanaticism, hypocrisy and superstition, then clearly it is not efficacious and I am less likely to try it myself. I have to find a more effective way.