Living the lofty philosophy of Hinduism

[Spirit_Warrior]

some people need the dicipline of a comunity , ..and sadly sometimes if toomany undiciplined people come togerher it is not such a positive place for a person of a different disposition , ...I agree with you entirely about living life and contributing to society , ....some thies this is the harder path as I think you are finding at present , ...

but as you have said this is perhaps a turning point for you , ...

this is getting long so will continue , ....

I mentioned NDE research earlier. As a Hindu I learn from everywhere and not just limited to my shastras. Like Dattatreya who had 24 gurus, including animals and nature, I learn from the world, from friends, from family, from strangers, from science, from philosophy, from literature and from my mistakes. NDE, past life memory research is more reliable to me that what a scripture says, because it is based on more empirical data collection methods --- you could say by this method a new modern scientific shastra is forming, which is more scientific and reliable than previous shastras. Past life and in-between life research shows how we incarnate on this Earth, how we have specific goals that we choose certain parents to come down for, to say work through our fears, our anger problems, or to learn something. In one case there was somebody who had been working on exactly the same problem of jealousy for the last 10 lives(!) ---- this made the light bulb in my head light up --- I know what my challenges are in this life, and probably even before I incarnated here I knew these were the challenges that I was going to work with --- hence this is my dharma for this life --- this is what I need to single-mindedly(samadhana) work on, this is what the goal for this life is.

Can you you see where I am going with this? You keep jumping ahead to the final goal of the soul right past the demi gods, right pass the siddhas and masters, right pass Lord Brahma, to the absolute Brahman --- missing out the more mundane and humble human goals of kama, arth and dharma. If you gave the same amount of attention to these mundane human goals that you do to Krishna, you would probably achieve far more in this life than you would by just chanting Krishna al the time. In any case, I am not trying to convince you to give up Krishna, I would never do that, as those are the choices you have made. I am just saying that for me right now I don't need Krishna --- I need friends --- I need a job --- I need a partner -- I need to find my place in society.

I think shastra will agree with me to some extent. Before we are even ready to study Vedanta, we need chitta-shuddhi, a sattic mind, and we achieve that though yamas, niyamas, asanas, meditation, worship, introspection, reading scriptures, pilgrimage, prayer. That can be achieved in any religion, or just be living life and constantly improving yourself.

 

[Aupmanyav]

We are always That. That knowledge remains at the back of one's awareness, even when going about one's "life." There is no "higher Truth" or gradations of Truth.

That is an absolute winner IMHO, Sassymaa. I am that, why should I be doing this?

Rather than allowing myself to become deluded by grandiose notions like I am God, ..

To say 'I am Brahman' is not saying something grandiose. It is a statement of fact. And Brahman is not a God. There is no question of a potential. That is what you always were, that is what you are and that is what you always will be.

 

[Sirona]

I followed the thread for awhile. Like the OP, I have a tendency to "read to much", and I suppose that he went through a lot of bad things in his life. At least I did.

That's why I say, the OP's problem at the core has nothing to do with Hinduism. I guess deep down inside he has the thought that "the world owes me something", presumably "love". That, after all, is a very childish thought, and only by overcoming it, development is possible, religious or other.

 

[Spirit_Warrior]

I followed the thread for awhile. Like the OP, I have a tendency to "read to much", and I suppose that he went through a lot of bad things in his life. At least I did.

That's why I say, the OP's problem at the core has nothing to do with Hinduism. I guess deep down inside he has the thought that "the world owes me something", presumably "love". That, after all, is a very childish thought, and only by overcoming it, development is possible, religious or other.

I think your projecting your situation on me. I have never said anybody owes me anything. On the contrary I said I myself need to find love in my life and need to work through my issues in order to progress further. I have also did I not want to discuss my personal life, so I am not expecting sympathy either. I have been discussing some of the philosophical problems with living the lofty life of Hinduism as it is enjoined in scriptures and these problems are general. I may give some personal examples(without divulging details about myself) to show some of my struggles in living it.

I did not find the tone of your post useful, constructive or friendly.

 

[Kirran]

Sirona was only offering their view of the situation as they saw it, nothing wrong with that, whether or not you think it's right. We can learn from everything people say to us, accurate or no.

 

[Spirit_Warrior]

Its been a good discussion so far, and its given me a lot of food for thought, so I would appreciate it does not become personal. To tell somebody "they think the world owes them something" is not very a nice thing to say to somebody and it is clear the intention behind is not friendly. So, lets keep the friendly tone of the discussion as it was going before, or I am more than happy to call it a day.

 

[ratikala]

Namaskaram ji

I mentioned NDE research earlier. As a Hindu I learn from everywhere and not just limited to my shastras. Like Dattatreya who had 24 gurus, including animals and nature, I learn from the world, from friends, from family, from strangers, from science, from philosophy, from literature and from my mistakes. NDE, past life memory research is more reliable to me that what a scripture says, because it is based on more empirical data collection methods --- you could say by this method a new modern scientific shastra is forming,

all these thigs Near Death Experiences , glimpses of past lives dont we just need these things to allow us to understand Shastra ? ...without these experiences Shastra may appear as it does to some to be alagorical , analogous or mythalogical , ....well it is not and the more real experience we have the more confirmation we have of its validity , ....

which is more scientific and reliable than previous shastras. Past life and in-between life research shows how we incarnate on this Earth, how we have specific goals that we choose certain parents to come down for, to say work through our fears, our anger problems, or to learn something. In one case there was somebody who had been working on exactly the same problem of jealousy for the last 10 lives(!) ---- this made the light bulb in my head light up --- I know what my challenges are in this life, and probably even before I incarnated here I knew these were the challenges that I was going to work with --- hence this is my dharma for this life --- this is what I need to single-mindedly(samadhana) work on, this is what the goal for this life is.

this may be so but just because it took one person ten lifetimes that need not set the rule that it will be the same for you or for me , ..

Can you you see where I am going with this? You keep jumping ahead to the final goal of the soul right past the demi gods, right pass the siddhas and masters, right pass Lord Brahma, to the absolute Brahman ---

Opps sorry I will try to slow down , ....

missing out the more mundane and humble human goals of kama, arth and dharma. If you gave the same amount of attention to these mundane human goals that you do to Krishna

it is lucky that I have a sence of humor , .....how can I be so absorbed in chanting and lofty persuits when I am spending so much time talking to you ??? ....you have my full attention Ji ......I am listening

you would probably achieve far more in this life than you would by just chanting Krishna al the time. In any case, I am not trying to convince you to give up Krishna, I would never do that, as those are the choices you have made. I am just saying that for me right now I don't need Krishna --- I need friends --- I need a job --- I need a partner -- I need to find my place in society.

Ok Ok , ...let me try to explain something , ....its not the chanting that matters it is the mind behind the chanting that realy matters , ...

and what have I accheived ? ...peace of mind !

...when I first went to the temple it was because I was sort of lonely , but I could no longer be assed with superficial freindshipsI had sort of out grown them , I had lost everything that I had worked very hard for over the previous ten years, ... amazingly enough my so called friends also lost interest in me when I had nothing left , but what loss ? ....they were realy great freinds they even stole from me , ...and my dearly beloved who had asked me to marry him changed his mind when he realised we couldnt afford to have a jazz band at the wedding , ...Wow did I have a lucky escape , .. this guy was only interested in having a big party and some great photos to put on the shelf , ....and with these freinds who enemys !

.....I became a little fatalistic I began to ask what is this life for , what are we doing ? ....and yes even when you have been totaly kicked in the teeth by the people you loved and trusted , still you want to find some real friends , ...but quite understandably one begins to ask questions , ...are human beings even capable of freindship , ..can they even be trusted , ...in all honesty they canot , ....I remember coming to the conclusion that it was all my own fault for not realising the true nature of mundane life and the mundane mind , it canot help but be self serving so can I blame them ? ...No , ..they were just like children in a sweet shop , they canot handle temptation , ....can I hate them for what they did ? ...No , ...because like children they dont do it out of deliberate badness they just dont have enough experience or appreciation of life to draw on they just grab and enjoy, that is their animal instinct , I canot blame them for their lack of maturity , .....so who can I trust ?

my self , because I am the only one who is going to get me out of here I am the only one who is going to get over expectations .....the omly other person I can trust is Krsna because he is the only one who dosent need anything from me he has everything but because he has everything he can give so much more in return you give one small morcel of love to him and he returns it tenfold

.......So how you cant convince me to give up krsna, .....

I know its ok you dont want to , but it wasnt even a choice , it is like sand in the hour glass when it runs out that is it , ....it is only a matter of time one minute you are caught up in the material world the next moment that way of thinking just ceases , .....a new understanding occures in the vacume left as one life ceases and a new life begins , ....this can happen to you too at any point , thinking can change expectetions can change and ones material position can change.

I think shastra will agree with me to some extent. Before we are even ready to study Vedanta, we need chitta-shuddhi, a sattic mind, and we achieve that though yamas, niyamas, asanas, meditation, worship, introspection, reading scriptures, pilgrimage, prayer. That can be achieved in any religion, or just be living life and constantly improving yourself.

I think there are two ways the long systematic path of study and practice , ....and the short path of surrender , .....I am not inteligent enough for study I have learnt a lot from self observation the remainder I put down to the mercy of God be that the Buddha's or Krsna , ....but improving oneself as you say through Yamas and Nyamas is cetainly an important part of any path.

just becoming aquainted with the principle of Sanatana Dharma gave me great hope , ....I followed it , It has never let me down , ...I wish you the same joys , .....

 

[ratikala]

Namaskaram Sirona ji

I followed the thread for awhile. Like the OP, I have a tendency to "read to much", and I suppose that he went through a lot of bad things in his life. At least I did.

That's why I say, the OP's problem at the core has nothing to do with Hinduism. I guess deep down inside he has the thought that "the world owes me something", presumably "love". That, after all, is a very childish thought, and only by overcoming it, development is possible, religious or other.

surely part of our duty as Hindu is to be supportive to one another and surely the crown ornament of our own practice is to be both generous and non judgemental , ..if we feel that we have benifited from Dharma then likewise we should share that Dharma with who ever asks .

 

[Aupmanyav]

To tell somebody "they think the world owes them something" is not very a nice thing to say to somebody and it is clear the intention behind is not friendly.

Sirona is always friendly. IMHO, her post may not have been worded very appropriately this time.

 

[Sirona]

@Spirit_Warrior I apologize if I sounded a little harsh, that was not my intention. I can only present my view of Hinduism. However, without meddling into your affairs, I think giving up the expectations of “I need this”, “I need that” would be a useful step. The path to enlightenment IMHO starts with renunciation. If one is not willing to give up to be thrown by the “waves” of like and dislike, in my eyes all further philosophical discussion is just empty words. But this is my view, you don’t have to adopt it. Take care.

 

[Spirit_Warrior]

@Spirit_Warrior I apologize if I sounded a little harsh, that was not my intention. I can only present my view of Hinduism. However, without meddling into your affairs, I think giving up the expectations of “I need this”, “I need that” would be a useful step. The path to enlightenment IMHO starts with renunciation. If one is not willing to give up to be thrown by the “waves” of like and dislike, in my eyes all further philosophical discussion is just empty words. But this is my view, you don’t have to adopt it. Take care.

This was far better worded thank you. I remember a passage from Vidur-niti in regards to speaking truth or satya. Speaking truth is good, but do not speak those truth that are hurtful to others always speaks truths so the truth is said and others are not hurt either. This requires sensitivity, compassion and thoughtfulness. Telling a fat person they are fat maybe true, but saying it requires no effort, no sensitivity and compassion, telling them they are fat in regards to empathy for that person, does. The latter is a lot harder to do.

You have basically misunderstood what I have been saying in regards to love and wanting or needing love. If you say "I need food, air, warmth and water" is there anything wrong with that? What if said said to you "She feels like the world owes them something" you might reply "Food, air, warm and water are essential needs for my survival" In similar manner I reply love, affection, companionship and friendship are essential needs for emotional survival. It needn't be said that person who lack these things in their life suffer terribly and do self-destructive thing. I wish you would have had the empathy to see in what I was saying that I have lacked these things for most of my life, and it has left emotional damage and lead me to do self-destructive things. Some people stop at this, and wear the label of victim. Maybe you have self-victimised in the past, which is why you felt I was doing the same thing. In fact I said the opposite, I said I refused to be a victim and hence I took self-effort to obtain these needs that were lacking myself though self-effort, and recognise just how important it is this that these needs are met for my continued progress in life. I never I was waiting for love/affection to come along. I am not expecting anybody to give me anything. I believe in self-effort.

I think a few people through the course of this discussion turned a bit hostile because they felt I was not listening to them or that I was challenging Hinduism or challenging their own path. I was not challenging, but rather discussing the merits and demerits of scriptural learning vs life experience and how I found scriptural learning is often insufficient by itself e.g. many who are following sattvic paths and preach sattvic paths, do not have sattvic qualities themselves. e.g., empathy and compassion. I witnessed this in my ashram too. So I think this problem of hypocrisy is a very strong fault of these sattvic paths.

You also have wrong interpreted that I have a problem with Hinduism. Actually I have said the opposite, I found everything that shastra has had to say about sense objects, suffering, sex, lust, desires etc to be completely true, confirmed by own life experiences. All I was saying was renouncing it is not easy --- you may know the chocolate is bad for your teeth, but you still eat it. It takes a while before you stung enough by life that renunciation truly arises. Nor is renunciation a black and white/either/or thing. Renunciation too comes in stages. Having this compassion that we are all different stages of discrimination and and renunciation stops us from judging others so harshly. We will all eventually learn from life. In any case this discussion has given me a lot food for thought as how to proceed on from here. It is by no coincidence, that both on New Years Eve and New years day I end up meeting complete strangers that were telling me exactly what I needed to hear, and helped a lot to cement understandings that people in this thread have also contributed to -- as was said earlier vishva-darpan. I think I am poised now to turn a new leaf and 2017 is going to be significant milestone in my continued journey.

Happy new year everybody.

 

[ratikala]

Namaskaram Spiritual warrior ji

All blessings to you may your thoughts turn to sweet fruits

 

[Sirona]

@Spirit_Warrior Thanks for your detailed reply. Hope you had a nice New Year. I did understand very well the aspects of your situation. It just seems we have a different approach to solving a problem in a particular situation, and I understand your need for empathy.

I mostly rely on the Bhagavata Purana and what I get from there as well as from Buddhism is to be self-reliant. To come up with an example from my life when I was in a crisis I thought I needed "love", so I ended up in an abusive relationship. I also needed friendship, but I finally made a friend when I helped someone without the intent of making friends. I just had acted selflessly and it took me one entire year to build that friendship. People will notice if you're "needy" and I don't think they are attracted by that unless they're abusive.

As for the "lofty goals of Hinduism", I too appreciate the practical approach of Hinduism. I don't think the goals of Hinduism are "lofty" unless one puts oneself under pressure and takes a black or white / all or nothing approach. I know there are groups who do this, but I don't think they are typical for Hinduism. Take care.

 

[ajay0]

Do we need to just go through the experiences to learn or can we catalyse our learning by the learning from knowledge from the scriptures? Is knowledge gathered from scripture a true substitute for life learning?

As the saying goes , it is better to learn from other's experience and knowledge than one's own, in order to save oneself from misery and suffering that is bound to be there in the material world.

If you try to learn everything based on your own life experiences it will take a lot of lives along with the pain and suffering that goes with it. No matter how well endowed and complete you are in the material world, you will still feel unfulfilled , as we are all connected to the Infinite spirit, and anything finite is bound to make us feel unfulfilled even if surrounded by all material pleasures and gratifications.

Even in terms of joy and happiness, you will find it of a permanent nature more in the Spirit rather than in the pleasures of the world which are transient and impermanent.

The experience of the spiritual joy and pleasures will also help you to climb out of the material pleasures which you have mentioned. If you have experienced truly spiritual bliss, you will know that there is just no comparison between it and material pleasures.

 

[Aupmanyav]

All I was saying was renouncing it is not easy ..

Yeah, not easy. I have been a smoker for 60 years, can lecture in details about the effects of smoking but still smoke. I justify it by saying that God will need some reason to end my sojourn, so I am giving him one. I am only a 'nimitta', all doing is his. Jai Sri Ram.

 

[Chakra]

I don't really think that this is a religious issue...plenty of people have been in your shoes and got back out of the mess they were in without the help of any religion. Perhaps what you need is just new company and motivation.

 

[Spirit_Warrior]

I don't really think that this is a religious issue...plenty of people have been in your shoes and got back out of the mess they were in without the help of any religion. Perhaps what you need is just new company and motivation.

I just wanted to reply to this post first. I have a few to respond to and I usually do them in chronological order, but this one really hits the nail on the head. Indeed, personally my goal is a mundane and "non religious one" However, I qualify that it is not religious, because in Hinduism even the mundane goals of life like kama, arth and dharma before moksha(purusharth) are a part of the religious or spiritual life. There is this implication that we need to fulfil these goals, if not in this life, in previous life. If for example in this life you do not feel strong draw towards money, it is because you fulfilled those goals in a previous life. In this life, my strongest draw is towards companionship, family and sense of community. Hence, pursing this is in a way a part of my religious practice. It tells me that I have not fulfilled this goal in my previous lives and actually gives me some idea how far I have got in my spiritual development. At the moment I am definitely going about it in the wrong way. The friends I have currently are nothing more than drinking buddies or fun buddies(if you know what I mean) who I know only from clubs and bars, and not outside of there. They would abandon in me a second for their next thrill. It is better having just 5 really good friends than 50 of such friends. I have learned my lesson now and I going to start cutting ties with them.

I was just wondering what do Hindu scriptures/shastras say specifically on the subject of relationships? Friendships? Do you know of any particular anecdotes relating to this? Is there such thing as true friends, or are we all just alone souls who need to always remain detached. I know for example in existentialism, accepting loneliness is one of the so-called facts of life.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Well, there was Yudhishthira and the dog.

 

[Vinayaka]

Tirukkural on Friendship ...

Chapter 79 : Friendship

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

Well, there was Yudhishthira and the dog.

Aupji, namaste, I'm so glad "you're" on the planet at the same time as "me." Those seven words resemble an iceberg, not so much for their coolness--said the dog carrying the peacock feather yay! I finally get to use that one!--but for the oceans of meaning hidden and reverberating below the surface.