Trailblazer
Veteran Member
God fails nobody ever.And supposedly your God created all of us. Sheesh He fails many before they "come of age".
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God fails nobody ever.And supposedly your God created all of us. Sheesh He fails many before they "come of age".
Correct.
God did not create humanity with any desires. We accumulate desires as we go through life.
We were all created in God's image so we are all have the potential to be good but since humans have free will some people choose evil over good.
I agree.
Nothing that influences us is shaped by God, it is shaped by our experiences in life. Our experiences in life are caused by our choices and other things that happen to us that we do not choose."Tabula rasa" has been debunked, but regardless: anything that influences us "as we go through life" was - according to you - ultimately shaped by God.
The reason we have the propensity to evil acts is because we have two natures, a spiritual or higher nature and a material or lower nature, and we can choose to act according to either nature. All imperfection comes from our physical nature, our spiritual nature is purely good.... which implies that there's something other than free will causing the evil.
God did not put the desire to murder into a serial killer. That desire came from the mind of the serial killer.So if God had chosen not to put the desire to murder into, say, a serial killer, their free will would be just as intact as mine is... and their victims wouldn't have been killed.
Nothing that influences us is shaped by God, it is shaped by our experiences in life.
Our experiences in life are caused by our choices and other things that happen to us that we do not choose.
The reason we have the propensity to evil acts is because we have two natures, a spiritual or higher nature and a material or lower nature, and we can choose to act according to either nature. All imperfection comes from our physical nature, our spiritual nature is purely good.
In sum, we all have free will, so we can choose to act according to one of our two natures, our spiritual or higher nature and our material or lower nature. If we choose to act according to our lower material nature we will do evil. If we choose to act according to our spiritual nature, we will do good actions.
“In man there are two natures; his spiritual or higher nature and his material or lower nature. In one he approaches God, in the other he lives for the world alone. Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect he expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his Divine nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature. If a man’s Divine nature dominates his human nature, we have a saint.”To read more: THE TWO NATURES IN MAN
God did not put the desire to murder into a serial killer. That desire came from the mind of the serial killer.
A serial killer had free will to choose and owing to nature and nurture he chose to murder.
YesssssIt’s just easier for me to believe that God does it all, both the good and the bad
It’s just easier for me to believe that God does it all, both the good and the bad,
Yesssss
Reality manifests and processes itself.Agreed! But what does God do with it, my friends?
Well, what I call "God" (Infinite Intelligence) isn't the doer. I know I'm contradicting my "yesssss" but let me elaborate. Infinite Intelligence is used by the various doers of the universe. It's my assumption that there is a benevloent god (lowercase g) on the side of humanity. But, if not, we must become that god regardless. So, what does "God" do with it? In place of the word "God" for that question, I propose instead we ask "What does man do with it?"Agreed! But what does God do with it, my friends?
Reality manifests and processes itself.
Well, what I call "God" (Infinite Intelligence) isn't the doer. I know I'm contradicting my "yesssss" but let me elaborate. Infinite Intelligence is used by the various doers of the universe. It's my assumption that there is a benevloent god (lowercase g) on the side of humanity. But, if not, we must become that god regardless. So, what does "God" do with it? In place of the word "God" for that question, I propose instead we ask "What does man do with it?"
Yes, if I am literally wrong and the existence of evil is consistent with the existence of an omnimax God, color me ignorant!I agree with "what does man do with it?" But, I guess, I'm asking to proceed from the original premise, that this is THE PoE, which means that challenge is to understand if/how evil is consistent with a tri-omni God. If it is unknown if/how it is consistent, is the claim against this tri-omni god concept anything more than an argument from ignorance?
It can but does this always outweigh preventing or stopping it?
If so, then let's follow God's example - don't stop the child rape, don't vaccinate children, cancel hospitals, police and courts...
Yes, if I am literally wrong and the existence of evil is consistent with the existence of an omnimax God, color me ignorant!
But, to accept that one has to have faith in such an omnimax God in the first place. Which, more power to you. Just, you have to accept that you are ignorant on the matter and accept what seems logically impossible. Right?
We are 235 replies in now... We are a strange bunch, huh?That said, it is not logically impossible. It's just very complicated, and few people have the patience or desire to work through all of it.
We are 235 replies in now... We are a strange bunch, huh?
I don't know if I'd see how it's logically possible with another couple hundred responses. haha try me tho
Good point, haven't read everything. I'll see if I want to request further elaboration from you once I do :0How much of what I have said so far to others have you been reading?
Good point, haven't read everything. I'll see if I want to request further elaboration from you once I do :0
That is not what I was saying. Allow me to explain what I meant.So you've changed your mind? You don't think God created the universe any more?
In the sense that God created everything that exists it can be traced back to God.... which all could ultimate be traced back to God, if God were to exist.
God did not create us with two natures. Since we were created in the image of God, we were created with only one nature - good.So God created us with two natures, one of which has a tendency to evil?
That is because this person's thoughts are focused on his spiritual or higher nature, so he has no desire to act on his lower nature and murder, steal, or commit any other negative act.But as I was getting at earlier, there are people for whom this isn't true. Someone can have no desire to murder, steal, or commit any other negative act you can think of.
No, humans are responsible for evil and they commit evil acts when they choose not to follow the Laws of God.So God *is* responsible for evil, then.
No, God did not put the desire to murder in anyone's mind. Man was created good but fell from grace (see above).What you've told me implies that God did put the desire to murder - or at least the seed of it - in the mind of a serial killer.
All people have a lower nature thus the propensity to sin but only some people act on it. Owing to our inherited dispositions and life experiences (nature and nurture) you and I do not have a desire to murder. Owing to his/her inherited dispositions and life experiences (nature and nurture) a murderer has a desire to murder.And yet you and I, whose natures didn't include a desire to murder, didn't have to make that choice but still had free will anyway.
God did not give us an evil nature. God created us good (see above).... so that evil nature - and by extension, the God who gave us our evil nature - is ultimately responsible.
For criminal acts such as murder and rape moral responsibility and legal accountability go hand in hand.That is incorrect. The law per se doesn't require moral responsibility to establish legal accountability. A very simple example: A company might be held legally accountable and yet have no moral responsibility. The law may or may not incorporate aspects of moral responsibility but it is not required to.
God enables or allows suffering but so what?You said it is not: "God allows suffering but God does not enable suffering".
If God has the desire/will for humans to attain perfection, why would the best method to attain perfection be the one that is the fastest and most cost effective?Ah, yes, I did miss that point.
Then my reply is: If God has the desire/will for humans to attain perfection, how wouldn't the best method to attain perfection be the one that is the fastest and most cost effective?
That same gain cannot be achieved by some other way, other than pain, so it follows that such gain necessitates pain.That doesn't follow. If that same gain can be achieved by some other way, other than pain, then it follows that such gain doesn't necessitate pain.
Yes, for example, if one is training to be an athlete (gain) then a certain amount of physical pain is necessary to reach that goal.Do you mean to say there are certain gains that necessarily require pain?
What is most beneficial is whatever helps us fulfill the purpose of our existence, which I believe is to know and love God. Other things that are beneficial are taking care of our mental and physical health, having healthy interpersonal relationships, getting married and raising a family (if we choose to do that), getting an education, doing gainful work we enjoy, engaging in enjoyable activities. All these increase our well-being.Ok. But how do you figure what is beneficial? Let me provide you my answer so you understand what I am talking about: Beneficial is that which increases well-being, meaning leading to a happier life overall. Now, it is your turn: How do you figure if something is beneficial?
The part I disagree with is that an omnibenevolent God would choose either method, since God is not responsible for curing diseases.Sure. A method to cure diseases is more benevolent than some other if it inflicts less harm than the other. Method 1 involves inflicting no harm, Method 2 involves inflicting harm. Therefore, Method 1 is more benevolent. An omnibenevolent being would always choose the most benevolent method if possible and therefore never choose method 2. What part do you disagree with if any?