Losing my atheism (my new spiritual journey)

[Thana]

Except that you already have prior assumptions that some sort of intelligence, and therefore intent, are behind it, and are therefore less likely to accept explanations that do not require one.

I don't see how my prior assumptions are any different to an Atheists?

 

[Sundance]

Not exactly following you. You're saying God does not exist in physical form but is an idea. Then I lost you at 2 and 3.

If Santa Clause does not exist but is an idea then what is the difference between God and Santa Claus in your example?

My apologies for the unclear reply.

My first objection serves essentially to challenge the starting assumption that God is a personal being rather than viewing God simply as an idea or symbol.

My second and third objections extend from the first. If Santa Claus is a symbol, doesn't it make denying the existence thereof kinda self-refuting? Are symbols any less real than material entities?

Then what about God?

 

[Bunyip]

I know that this might sound surprising to whom knows my worldview, but I am seriously reconsidering my atheism (and naturalism).

I have been thinking a lot recently about the Universe and the place we occupy in it. And I asked myself the question: is that really all so pointless? Do we really evolve, live, die and that's it? Isn't maybe possible that humanity occupies a special place in the great scheme of things?

If we collect all the arguments that hint at the possibility of God, we cannot really see one that sets the issue. But all of them could give us some cumulative pieces of evidence all pointing to a possible trascendent reality. This is also the process we use to provide evidence in science.

For instance, the amazing effectivity of mathematics to describe the Universe is something I could not really explain as a naturalist. How is that possible that mathematics applies so perfectly to the fabric of reality if there is not a mind behind all this?

I'm surprised you would say that. The reason why mathematics applies so perfectly to the fabric of reality is because maths describes that reality.

I also considered the fine tuning argument as one of the strongest ones in support of a non natural origin of conscious beings. The chances of life are so negligible that it seems really a stretch to believe that consciousness can arise out of unconscious processes. We should expect a Universe just filled with dead things and not one with life. Especially not one with introspective life, or life that goes beyond the immediate survival instincts: i.e life that can give the Universe itself a meaning.

But the key moment was this morning. And it was not a mere rational analysis. I just had a look out of my window. When I saw the mountains, the lake, the majesty and the beauty surrounding me, I experienced a moment in which I felt one with everything. All the long term pointlessness of my naturalistic view vanished. That was stunning and something I never felt before. I don't know if that can be considered a mystic experience, but it felt like one.

At the moment, I am a bit confused and still thinking about it. My Christian friend thinks that God is claiming me back, and, for the first time since a long time, I cannot definetely rule that out.


Ciao

- viole

I don't see why you are connecting pointlessness to naturalism, or for that matter why you are connecting your appreciation of the majesty of nature with gods.

 

[viole]

I'm surprised you would say that. The reason why mathematics applies so perfectly to the fabric of reality is because maths describes that reality. I don't see why you are connecting pointlessness to naturalism, or for that matter why you are connecting your appreciation of the majesty of nature with gods.

Hej Bunyip, thanks for your reply.

This is genuinely bizarre. When I woke up this morning, I felt like my yesterday's experience never happened.
Maybe Satan and God are fighting for my soul, who knows?

Or, more plausibly, such mysterious conversions tend to take place at very special days of the year

Ciao

- viole

 

[Bunyip]

Hej Bunyip, thanks for your reply.

This is genuinely bizarre. When I woke up this morning, I felt like my yesterday's experience never happened.
Maybe Satan and God are fighting for my soul, who knows?

Or, more plausibly, such mysterious conversions tend to take place at very special days of the year

Ciao

- viole

I am such an idiot! Will bang my head on the table for next half hour as pennance.

 

[Thana]

Hej Bunyip, thanks for your reply.

This is genuinely bizarre. When I woke up this morning, I felt like my yesterday's experience never happened.
Maybe Satan and God are fighting for my soul, who knows?

Or, more plausibly, such mysterious conversions tend to take place at very special days of the year

Ciao

- viole

Oh, so it was all a joke?
That's disappointing.

Oh well, after all, it's not me who has to live every day with that perspective of yours.

You know I didn't even realize people still did April Fools, I thought it was kind of just a joke holiday for kids.

Well.. you got me good, I guess. Hurray?

 

[Gambit]

But the key moment was this morning. And it was not a mere rational analysis. I just had a look out of my window. When I saw the mountains, the lake, the majesty and the beauty surrounding me, I experienced a moment in which I felt one with everything. All the long term pointlessness of my naturalistic view vanished. That was stunning and something I never felt before. I don't know if that can be considered a mystic experience, but it felt like one.

It sounds like you had a unitive experience.

 

[Tumah]

-snip-
At the moment, I am a bit confused and still thinking about it. My Christian friend thinks that God is claiming me back, and, for the first time since a long time, I cannot definetely rule that out.


Ciao

- viole

It can't be that the Christian God is claiming you back, because the Christian God isn't real.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Hey V, how's it going

Being following a single belief myself happily, I never thought people could have to struggle finding one. With time, I realized how hard it could be with some of them. This, besides making me appreciate the state I'm in, makes me wish everyone finds the path they are looking for and find peace of mind.

I hope you find what you are looking for and be happy with it

 

[JoStories]

I think the term you should use is "Nature" mysticism, not "natural". That suggests something other that what it is. One can easily argue that Deity Mystism is natural as well, but it is different that nature mysticism which revolves around nature, the universe, the stars, the mountains and streams, the air, the movement of clouds, and so forth. You are right that it doesn't have to have a deity attached to it. What the OP described fits much more into Nature Mysticism.

But I'll add here that Deity Mysticism can in fact include Nature Mysticism. Most definitely. It's in the Bible in fact, a lot in the Psalms. But as far as Thomas Merton, he actually would have been a deity mystic.

At the end of his life, I would disagree with you. His outlook was much more eastern in nature. I use the word natural mysticism in a way such as the following example portrays; I read about a woman who was singing handel's messiah in her church and in doing that, she had a profoundly mystical experience. And in fact, the entire church was weeping at the end of performance. When she went to her pastor to talk about the experience, she was told it was heresy and something of ' the devil'. She subsequently left that faith (Christianity) for another. IMO, that is natural mysticism. Just how I view this windwalker.

 

[JoStories]

Because they believed in a god? Really?

Sorry, that is just weird IMO.

To you, it's weird. To others, it matters a great deal.

 

[Windwalker]

I use the word natural mysticism in a way such as the following example portrays; I read about a woman who was singing handel's messiah in her church and in doing that, she had a profoundly mystical experience. And in fact, the entire church was weeping at the end of performance. When she went to her pastor to talk about the experience, she was told it was heresy and something of ' the devil'. She subsequently left that faith (Christianity) for another. IMO, that is natural mysticism. Just how I view this windwalker.

What does this mean? Why does rejecting idiot preachers for speaking their fears as facts make hers, or any other person's with a genuine mystical experience make it "natural" mysticism? You mean in the sense of a "genuine" mystical experience as opposed to something else? This term makes no sense to me. You mean there's a "supernatural" mysticism and that's the "real" one?

If so why use the word "natural" and not real versus fake, or something? And then if this is so, what qualifies one as "real" and one as "fake"? What makes the distinction? Because Preacher Bob from the deep south makes the call by reading his King James Version of the Bible he got from his grandma? Is the acid test not rejecting those who have no idea what they are talking about as they continue to find God wherever that may lead them, because after all God is owned and can only be found by Preacher Bob?

 

[JoStories]

What does this mean? Why does rejecting idiot preachers for speaking their fears as facts make hers, or any other person's with a genuine mystical experience make it "natural" mysticism? You mean in the sense of a "genuine" mystical experience as opposed to something else? This term makes no sense to me. You mean there's a "supernatural" mysticism and that's the "real" one?

If so why use the word "natural" and not real versus fake, or something? And then if this is so, what qualifies one as "real" and one as "fake"? What makes the distinction? Because Preacher Bob from the deep south makes the call by reading his King James Version of the Bible he got from his grandma? Is the acid test not rejecting those who have no idea what they are talking about as they continue to find God wherever that may lead them, because after all God is owned and can only be found by Preacher Bob?

You misunderstand me. I mean the term in that these types of experiences are not necessarily involving a deity at all. Unlike St. Theresa who experiences were completely about God, these others are not. These are my opinions and what I have derived by studying this for many years. It is not set in stone, and I am sorry if it upsets you.

 

[Windwalker]

You misunderstand me. I mean the term in that these types of experiences are not necessarily involving a deity at all. Unlike St. Theresa who experiences were completely about God, these others are not. These are my opinions and what I have derived by studying this for many years. It is not set in stone, and I am sorry if it upsets you.

You're not upsetting me, you're confusing me. I cannot follow your example with the use of the word "natural mysticism". It doesn't make sense and therefore fails to communicate what you may wish to convey. The woman's experience is rejected by her pastor and this makes it natural mysticism? How? And why can't deity mysticism be considered natural? It's not "unnatural" nor uncommon. It happens all the time in mystical experiences. People naturally see visions of various deity forms. Your term makes no sense to me. And I too have studied this stuff for years, and have mystical experiences all the time, nature mysticism, deity mysticism, causal mysticism, and nondual mystical experiences. All of them are natural. What does your term specifically refer to? In what way could people use it? What category of experience is it?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It can't be that the Christian God is claiming you back, because the Christian God isn't real.

Is it really necessary for you to be such an anti-Christian bigot? How is this helpful at all?

 

[gsa]

It can't be that the Christian God is claiming you back, because the Christian God isn't real.

Is it really necessary for you to be such an anti-Christian bigot? How is this helpful at all?

Admittedly, it is hard to imagine that Yahweh is more probable than 1=3=1 and Allah.

 

[Tumah]

Is it really necessary for you to be such an anti-Christian bigot? How is this helpful at all?

Well, it was a bit of a tongue-in-cheek way of saying that the fact that his Christian friends say their god is calling him, does not make it a fact that this is so, as others would say that its their god calling to him.
Still, I'm not going to say that you've labeled me wrongly.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Well, it was a bit of a tongue-in-cheek way of saying that the fact that his Christian friends say their god is calling him, does not make it a fact that this is so, as others would say that its their god calling to him.
Still, I'm not going to say that you've labeled me wrongly.

Well, I'll be honest and say that I think Jews who don't accept Jesus as Messiah have missed the boat and are in for a rude awakening, but I respect your right to your beliefs. One of us is wrong in the end, though, and we'll see which one someday.

 

[jonathan180iq]

I don't understand the math issue, though I've heard it before--obviously some have an image of what maths is that I don't. To me, maths is a language composed of symbols that describe the universe. Why is it mystical that it should apply to the universe?

I've often wondered this. I think one can make a pretty solid argument that math is simply a creation of a means of understanding the world around us. We could have called the symbols anything at all and the system would still work because it was designed to work, and make sense, by mathematicians.

 

[Ouroboros]

I don't understand the math issue, though I've heard it before--obviously some have an image of what maths is that I don't. To me, maths is a language composed of symbols that describe the universe. Why is it mystical that it should apply to the universe?

And it's a reflection of the human viewpoint. It it's a language from the point of a finite mind in finite time trying to understand the infinite.