Losing my atheism (my new spiritual journey)

[Thana]

What assumptions do atheists have?

The exact opposite of the assumptions I have.

"God didn't do it" is a good example.

 

[bryan scott]

Reality involves cause and effect: Nothing comes from nothing. Life comes from life. And purposed design comes from the purpose of a designer. No one saw the universe come from nothing, or life come from non-life. No one saw a Creator create the universe, or create life. But existence, life, and intelligence, point to a cause. Keep using those eyes that were made for sight, and keep pondering what you see. Romans 1:20

 

[outhouse]

This is genuinely bizarre. When I woke up this morning, I felt like my yesterday's experience never happened.
Maybe Satan and God are fighting for my soul, who knows?

Or, more plausibly, such mysterious conversions tend to take place at very special days of the year

Ciao

- viole

Had it pegged lol

 

[outhouse]

Welcome to the forums

Nothing comes from nothing.

No one states this. A singularity caused our universe to form. A super massive black hole would qualify, and it is not nothing.

Life comes from life

Not true.

No one saw the universe come from nothing

Ah but we ancient people writing in mythology.

And we have direct evidence that points to a 13 B year old universe.

But existence, life, and intelligence, point to a cause.

Yes. A singularity expanded, abiogenesis took place over a 400000 year window, and life evolved into its current state.

We call it nature. Unlike mythology, it can be observed.

 

[dust1n]

Mmmh.

Let's have a look tomorrow, shan't we?

Ciao

- viole

That would explain the sudden giant shift.

 

[yoursincerefriend]

"Who remember Allaah while standing or sitting or [lying] on their sides and give thought to the creation of the heavens and the earth, [saying], 'Our Lord, You did not create this aimlessly; exalted are You [above such a thing]; then protect us from the punishment of the Fire.'"[Quran 3:191]

 

[stevevw]

I know that this might sound surprising to whom knows my worldview, but I am seriously reconsidering my atheism (and naturalism).

I have been thinking a lot recently about the Universe and the place we occupy in it. And I asked myself the question: is that really all so pointless? Do we really evolve, live, die and that's it? Isn't maybe possible that humanity occupies a special place in the great scheme of things?

If we collect all the arguments that hint at the possibility of God, we cannot really see one that sets the issue. But all of them could give us some cumulative pieces of evidence all pointing to a possible trascendent reality. This is also the process we use to provide evidence in science.

For instance, the amazing effectivity of mathematics to describe the Universe is something I could not really explain as a naturalist. How is that possible that mathematics applies so perfectly to the fabric of reality if there is not a mind behind all this?

I also considered the fine tuning argument as one of the strongest ones in support of a non natural origin of conscious beings. The chances of life are so negligible that it seems really a stretch to believe that consciousness can arise out of unconscious processes. We should expect a Universe just filled with dead things and not one with life. Especially not one with introspective life, or life that goes beyond the immediate survival instincts: i.e life that can give the Universe itself a meaning.

But the key moment was this morning. And it was not a mere rational analysis. I just had a look out of my window. When I saw the mountains, the lake, the majesty and the beauty surrounding me, I experienced a moment in which I felt one with everything. All the long term pointlessness of my naturalistic view vanished. That was stunning and something I never felt before. I don't know if that can be considered a mystic experience, but it felt like one.

At the moment, I am a bit confused and still thinking about it. My Christian friend thinks that God is claiming me back, and, for the first time since a long time, I cannot definetely rule that out.


Ciao

- viole

I can relate to this. I use to believe in evolution and was right into the ways in which it could explain how apes turned into humans and all that. But I had this nagging voice inside which kept saying there was more to it than just what I was seeing and hearing. What may appear to make some logical sense at first isn't always what it is really about. I am the same when I see something like the moon in the sky. I think how does this great big ball of solid matter just hang there so perfectly in place in mid air. How does the entire universe do this without going out of control and smashing into each other. The bible talks about this when it says that all creation knows of God through the things that are unseen. So there is something there that we all know written in our hearts about God. The bible also says that man can make himself foolish trying to explain the amazing things of God as something that happened naturally.
Hebrews 11:3
By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
Romans 1:18 to 23
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,g]">[g] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So the universes exists and humans exists. What does that mean? Absolutely nothing. It just means, these two things exist. It doesn't imply anything else existed before these two things.

Everyone believes the existance of water. Everyone believes the existence of the color red. I believe in the existance of specific people.

Again, why does one mystical being get a free pass?

I didn't claim it does. I stated we do not know. There may be, there may not be. Even the Big Bang, how we think the universe was created, is becoming increasingly challenged.
It's really nothing more than intellectual folly to even be concerned about if there is or isn't, because we don't even know what the universe is.

 

[bvb53]

The world and the universe is so much more and beautiful knowing that it just happened and doesn't have a creator.

 

[Brandywine]

You might try the book One Faith by Michael Hari to help with these kinds of questions.

I know that this might sound surprising to whom knows my worldview, but I am seriously reconsidering my atheism (and naturalism).

I have been thinking a lot recently about the Universe and the place we occupy in it. And I asked myself the question: is that really all so pointless? Do we really evolve, live, die and that's it? Isn't maybe possible that humanity occupies a special place in the great scheme of things?

If we collect all the arguments that hint at the possibility of God, we cannot really see one that sets the issue. But all of them could give us some cumulative pieces of evidence all pointing to a possible trascendent reality. This is also the process we use to provide evidence in science.

For instance, the amazing effectivity of mathematics to describe the Universe is something I could not really explain as a naturalist. How is that possible that mathematics applies so perfectly to the fabric of reality if there is not a mind behind all this?

 

[okcitykid]

I know that this might sound surprising to whom knows my worldview, but I am seriously reconsidering my atheism (and naturalism).

I have been thinking a lot recently about the Universe and the place we occupy in it. And I asked myself the question: is that really all so pointless? Do we really evolve, live, die and that's it? Isn't maybe possible that humanity occupies a special place in the great scheme of things?

If we collect all the arguments that hint at the possibility of God, we cannot really see one that sets the issue. But all of them could give us some cumulative pieces of evidence all pointing to a possible trascendent reality. This is also the process we use to provide evidence in science.

For instance, the amazing effectivity of mathematics to describe the Universe is something I could not really explain as a naturalist. How is that possible that mathematics applies so perfectly to the fabric of reality if there is not a mind behind all this?

I also considered the fine tuning argument as one of the strongest ones in support of a non natural origin of conscious beings. The chances of life are so negligible that it seems really a stretch to believe that consciousness can arise out of unconscious processes. We should expect a Universe just filled with dead things and not one with life. Especially not one with introspective life, or life that goes beyond the immediate survival instincts: i.e life that can give the Universe itself a meaning.

But the key moment was this morning. And it was not a mere rational analysis. I just had a look out of my window. When I saw the mountains, the lake, the majesty and the beauty surrounding me, I experienced a moment in which I felt one with everything. All the long term pointlessness of my naturalistic view vanished. That was stunning and something I never felt before. I don't know if that can be considered a mystic experience, but it felt like one.

At the moment, I am a bit confused and still thinking about it. My Christian friend thinks that God is claiming me back, and, for the first time since a long time, I cannot definetely rule that out.


Ciao

- viole

Questioning is good, always good. For me, I remember before I was born so I could never doubt heaven. As far as there being a God, if there was no God than all of creation appeared accidentally and I can't imagine that. I don't know what God is, nobody does, some people think they do. Some of us have an idea and that's all.

 

[Thornbrier]

As to the math working out and the universe 'just happened' to be right for us, there are a couple specific points.
1) Most of our universe is not hospitable to us at all. Even a small portion of he surface of our world is hospitable without taking some rather extreme measures to protect our fragile bodies.
2) It is theorized that universes come and go all the time. Most of them are unstable and quickly melt back into the quantum foam (a poor analogy, but it sort of works).Those universes don't exist long enough for anything to form. Some last longer. But we happen to live in one that has lasted long enough, it has been stable enough, for reasoning life forms to develop to the point thy can ask 'why?' and 'how?' and ultimately, 'is there a point to it all?' So the universe we are in would have to have "fine tuned" properties or we wouldn't be here to ask about it. That is not to say that the 'tuning' of this universe is the only possible set which is stable, or even that it is infinitely stable. In fact, our math is pointing to an ultimately unstable universe. We only have a few times longer than the universe has existed before it won't anymore, at the most, and it will be unlivable (as we know it) long before then.
3) The math 'fitting' is sort of like filling in a Killer Sudoku. The math all works for the parameters given, a fact you rely upon to complete it. If it didn't, then the Sudoku wouldn't work, it would be inherently flawed, unworkable, and useless. Similarly, since the universe is stable enough for us to be here (see above) the math is all going to work out, eventually, to support a universe in which we can be here now.

 

[Tumah]

Well, I'll be honest and say that I think Jews who don't accept Jesus as Messiah have missed the boat and are in for a rude awakening, but I respect your right to your beliefs. One of us is wrong in the end, though, and we'll see which one someday.

That's right!

 

[idramusar]

Everything you see and oberve, there is a creator behind it. The car can't exist naturally. The house can't exist naturally and you yourself can't exist naturally. The mountains, the lake, the majesty and the beauty surrounding you show that these are created by the bigger creator, which is god. Just try to find who is this creator of yours, me and everybody in this world. Don't make a mistake. After death, there is no return ticket. Make a reseach on every religion itself. Don't see the peoples, what people says or what media says, but go to the religion and the scripture itself because in every religions there are good and bad peoples. Hope you will find the truth.

 

[vijeno]

For instance, the amazing effectivity of mathematics to describe the Universe is something I could not really explain as a naturalist. How is that possible that mathematics applies so perfectly to the fabric of reality if there is not a mind behind all this?

Let me just tackle this one. But let me start by saying that I think the question itself is rather easily solved - what's extremely interesting is that it has so many people, including myself at a younger age, so utterly confused or amazed.

It seems to me that behind this confusion lies the assumption that mathematics is a kind of metaphysical truth, i.e. a thing. If that is the case, of course the math becomes a rather inexplicable mystery.

Let me argue that this is definitely not the case. Maths is not a thing to be discovered, but an evolving concept. It is probably full of errors (even though it's probably the closest thing to perfection that humans can come up with), it is not finished, and it doesn't apply perfectly to the fabric of reality at all... it just applies way better than anything else we know. But there are certain limits to it, if you look, for example, into chaos theory and fractals. It is only applicable to reality if you abstract away from details. It is an abstraction, of course.

But the fact that it does work as well as it does, is easily explained. Our brains evolved within nature, for the sole purpose of understanding nature, so humans could survive better. It's really that simple.

In other words, maths is not necessarily true, just incredibly useful, and it's useful because our brains evolved to create just that kind of usefulness.

 

[Akingu]

One only needs to wish/pray to the Christian God for what one is either too lazy or stupid to accomplish themselves for proof that there is no "God" but MAN.

 

[serp777]

I know that this might sound surprising to whom knows my worldview, but I am seriously reconsidering my atheism (and naturalism).

I have been thinking a lot recently about the Universe and the place we occupy in it. And I asked myself the question: is that really all so pointless? Do we really evolve, live, die and that's it? Isn't maybe possible that humanity occupies a special place in the great scheme of things?

If we collect all the arguments that hint at the possibility of God, we cannot really see one that sets the issue. But all of them could give us some cumulative pieces of evidence all pointing to a possible trascendent reality. This is also the process we use to provide evidence in science.

For instance, the amazing effectivity of mathematics to describe the Universe is something I could not really explain as a naturalist. How is that possible that mathematics applies so perfectly to the fabric of reality if there is not a mind behind all this?

I also considered the fine tuning argument as one of the strongest ones in support of a non natural origin of conscious beings. The chances of life are so negligible that it seems really a stretch to believe that consciousness can arise out of unconscious processes. We should expect a Universe just filled with dead things and not one with life. Especially not one with introspective life, or life that goes beyond the immediate survival instincts: i.e life that can give the Universe itself a meaning.

But the key moment was this morning. And it was not a mere rational analysis. I just had a look out of my window. When I saw the mountains, the lake, the majesty and the beauty surrounding me, I experienced a moment in which I felt one with everything. All the long term pointlessness of my naturalistic view vanished. That was stunning and something I never felt before. I don't know if that can be considered a mystic experience, but it felt like one.

At the moment, I am a bit confused and still thinking about it. My Christian friend thinks that God is claiming me back, and, for the first time since a long time, I cannot definetely rule that out.


Ciao

- viole

I have been thinking a lot recently about the Universe and the place we occupy in it. And I asked myself the question: is that really all so pointless? Do we really evolve, live, die and that's it? Isn't maybe possible that humanity occupies a special place in the great scheme of things?

Its as possible as leprechauns and the celestial teapot. There's no evidence for either. Even with a divine authority there doesn't have to be any point or meaning. its arrogant to assume some evolved primates on a speck of dust in the universe are "special".

But all of them could give us some cumulative pieces of evidence all pointing to a possible trascendent reality. This is also the process we use to provide evidence in science.

The "cumulative" evidence has shown actually that science can explain most things. Now we have been filling in the gaps God traditionally filled with science. There is no cumaltive evidence that proves a particular God or deity.

For instance, the amazing effectivity of mathematics to describe the Universe is something I could not really explain as a naturalist. How is that possible that mathematics applies so perfectly to the fabric of reality if there is not a mind behind all this?

Mathematics is a language like any other except that it follows precise axioms and logical forms. It approximates some aspects of the universe with very good precision, but not infinite precision. Its infinitely far away from infinite precision and is therefore just a model. We can model things with geometric pictures, words, logical expressions, and much more as well. If you're just going to assume that because mathematics, therefore God, your argument is unarguable because you're just assuming there's a connection between the effectiveness of math and some kind of mind. It would perhaps be more amazing and suggestive of a God if there was nothing capable of describing the universe--then you might actually have a case. The existence of math means things in the universe obviously work without a celestial being.

I also considered the fine tuning argument as one of the strongest ones in support of a non natural origin of conscious beings. The chances of life are so negligible that it seems really a stretch to believe that consciousness can arise out of unconscious processes. We should expect a Universe just filled with dead things and not one with life. Especially not one with introspective life, or life that goes beyond the immediate survival instincts: i.e life that can give the Universe itself a meaning.

I consider it one of the strongest arguments against God. Maybe if there was just one solar system in the universe where no asteroids exist and if we had a perfectly stable sun. I would also expect our climate to be much more stable, etc. The fact is that things could be fine tuned much better for the survival and existence of life, including many of the constants of the universe. And presuming the universe is fine tuned assumes you know the landscapes of fine tuned universes. you don't have enough knowledge to make such a claim. There may be a vast number of universes where life flourishes more effectively. The fact that humans have evolved around the constants of the universe doesnt mean the universe was fine tuned for us.

And how do you know the chances of life are negligible? There are 10^80 atoms in the universe (one estimate, many larger ones) and a time span of 13.7 billion years. That time span and trillions of different galaxies could very well make it highly probable and somewhat common throughout the universe. Perhaps life only emerges in 1/4 galaxies or something--a low enough frequency that we wouldnt be able to observe life or it wouldnt notice us, since life is on such short time scales. Your expectations reflect fallaciously false assumptions. Even if we were the only life forms, that wouldnt mean any particular God or any god whatsoever. The multiverse, for instance is much more likely.

nd it was not a mere rational analysis. I just had a look out of my window. When I saw the mountains, the lake, the majesty and the beauty surrounding me, I experienced a moment in which I felt one with everything. All the long term pointlessness of my naturalistic view vanished. That was stunning and something I never felt before. I don't know if that can be considered a mystic experience, but it felt like one.

At the moment, I am a bit confused and still thinking about it. My Christian friend thinks that God is claiming me back, and, for the first time since a long time, I cannot definetely rule that out.

Clearly its not rational whatsoever. So you had some high levels of neurotransmitters caused by the perception of light with various wavelengths depicting some nature scenes. But feeling "one" with everything makes no sense since it was not "one" with you, whatever that means. I mean its absurd to think--I had a perceptual orgasm when i saw some rocks and water on the ground, therefore chrstianity. How do you know it isnt islam or hinduism or buddhism or shinto? This is as illogical as Francis Collin's argument that he saw three waterfalls frozen, therefore the trinity. I mean its such a fallacious connection that its beyond me how you could possibly make it.

I also find it lame that people liked this post; its really super overrated. Faith and belief aren't good things, its the worst of the virtues because its the most unreasonable. None of the points you made are any good any have all been defeated numerous times. Hopefully you aren't basing a worthless spiritual journey on arguments which have already been defeated for over 50 years.

 

[serp777]

Some will try to distort the reality which you have felt and realized, this is where the challenge lies.
Will you listen to your inner feelings or those who drive you to the empty life if i may say.

Because feelings supercede rationalist.

Since I feel that you two are distorting reality by having some pseudo perceptual hallucination experience, therefore you must be wrong. Clearly feelings override everything. Im listening to my inner feelings, that must be correct.

 

[FearGod]

Because feelings supercede rationalist.

Since I feel that you two are distorting reality by having some pseudo perceptual hallucination experience, therefore you must be wrong. Clearly feelings override everything. Im listening to my inner feelings, that must be correct.

I don't know why you're disturbed for what she feels and for what she wants, it's her own life after all.

 

[viole]

I have not read the rest of this thread through fear of ruining this demonstration of magnimonious grandeur. To hear that you are, once again, recognising the existence of deity is extremely moving and sacred. Everything you have said here is how I feel. Wow, what a testimony builder these words are to anybody with a morsel of doubt in their lives. My explanation is that you have found God again and he has embraced you in his loving arms, but it is you who have taken the first step, and your epiphany was with the Holy Ghost, who testifies of the truth to all men, if they will but listen. Well done viole, and God bless you because I know that you must be living a life that allows for this to happen. "Only my elite will recognise the masters vouce"

Serenity, thanks for the nice words

However, I would take with a grain of salt anything you read that satisfies the following two requirements:

1) It seems special, out of the ordinary
2) It has been posted on the 1st of April



Ciao

- viole