"Love thy enemy": Some thoughts on Paris

[JoStories]

I have a way of investigating to reach my conclusions. I could be wrong.

I know there are great people who are muslim. I agree they are very loving. But you cannot talk to them about details of the religion "IF" it goes against their faith.

You would be wrong because I have. That same family of the girl I mentioned. I sat down with them for quite a few meals, which were delicious Middle Eastern cuisine, and talked at length of these things.

 

[metis]

Muslim beliefs are not all the same by any means. I've been involved in interfaith activities here in the Detroit area for about 40 years now, and they vary person to person probably about as much as us Jews. We also have to remember that the greatest numbers of those whom are killed by radical jihadists are Muslims.

 

[outhouse]

We also have to remember that the greatest numbers of those whom are killed by radical jihadists are Muslims.

That's is the whole reason why the west is involved in the middle east

 

[outhouse]

You would be wrong because I have

You may be much kinder in your approach as to where I hit the truth on the head.

I agree if you showed them the koran was plagiarized from the bible, instead of divine revelation, you would find dissent.

 

[psychoslice]

You are the one making excuses for terrorism. You're government is led by terrorists with a 3 piece suit. The true difference between IS and NATO is the fact that IS does not hide the horrible acts they commit and NATO does hide it.


Money equals power..His ideas were noble, to stop the Western terrorism on innocent muslim children, men and women. Unfortunely the killing of innocent muslims is still on going

So 911 was justified ?, no, he was a low life terrorist, that even most Muslims can't stand, he is an embarrassment to all Muslims and their beliefs.

 

[psychoslice]

Bin laden ,the terrorist was a maniac,nothing at all.The only problem with him was that he was too rich( all the construction in Mecca is done by Bin Laden group,let me say 100 billions of usd per a year,let you say 50 billions usd) I have seen other members of his family. They don't even cover heads when they are out of Felix.

George W Bush was a worse terrorist. Pls stop thinking that terrorism is just what muslims have been doing,think broader.

I don't, and I agree that Bush was a terrorist, but that still doesn't justify what Ben Laden, if we all go by the stupid rule of an eye for an eye, we will eventually all go blind.

 

[Useless2015]

So 911 was justified ?, no, he was a low life terrorist, that even most Muslims can't stand, he is an embarrassment to all Muslims and their beliefs.

I believe 9/11 was an inside job. Shaykh Osama bin Laden is not an embarrasment, he has his heart in the right place.

 

[psychoslice]

I believe 9/11 was an inside job. Shaykh Osama bin Laden is not an embarrasment, he has his heart in the right place.

He's heart might be in the right place but everything else isn't, especially he's brain.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I believe 9/11 was an inside job. Shaykh Osama bin Laden is not an embarrasment, he has his heart in the right place.

I agree. It's right at the bottom of the ocean, where it belongs.

 

[outhouse]

Do you begin to see how unfair this is?

Yes it is unfair. So is Islamic genocide and terrorism.

But here is my problem. This religion is causing more global problems to all kinds of people not part of it. This needs to be addressed in a better way then dropping bombs and constant war since the religion started. It is not solving anything.

Education solves a lot.

You are asking people who have faith to abandon that faith in many ways Outhouse. Is that fair?

I believe You have agreed with me in the past "moderation" is the key to religious success. I'm not all out for removal. I wish to promote moderation.

I understand we cannot get all Christians on board and say "don't believe in the resurrection because its probably mythology" Or telling Jews "two gods compiled" into one god does not make it real. So no were not going to tell muslims they are living around "plagiarized traditions".

You expect an entire group of people to live up to YOUR ideals and views.

Why not? There would never be genocide again and Islamic illiteracy would be addressed not ignored. I first and foremost stand for better education and increasing communication to further knowledge. I am not an anti theist provided moderation is used.

I am pro education and anti fanaticism and anti fundamentalism.

THINK about reform as attacking the fanaticism, not the religion for me please.

Islam is the only religion that as a whole has Islamic science that is taught to all and everyone. Islam also has no division of church and state.

Yes we have Christian science, but these are fundamentalist the public frowns on.

Do you think Islamic reform could in the future reduce the sectarian violence that causes so much genocide due to religious belief alone.

 

[Shusha]

You are asking people who have faith to abandon that faith in many ways Outhouse. Is that fair? You expect an entire group of people to live up to YOUR ideals and views. Would you abandon your own if someone asked you to? Would you stop being an atheist to view the world from a believer's POV? I mean really really abandon it, not just pretend to. Do you begin to see how unfair this is?

If one's faith says that children should be made sexual slaves -- damn right I am asking one to abandon their faith. Perhaps "abandon" is not the right word. I am asking them to reconsider what their faith teaches about G-d's purpose and intent for the world. I am asking them to consider the historical context during which the message was delivered. I am asking them to give some flexibility to literalism. I am asking them to come to a different conclusion about certain ideas presented in scripture.

 

[JoStories]

Wait, wait. Just who, exactly, is advocating for the murder of millions of innocents simply because they are Muslim? Who is advocating for an intentional genocide of all men, women and children who are Muslim?

That kind of rhetoric only serves to paint the targets of terrorism as the true "bad guys" and draw some sort of moral equivalency between ISIS and it's targets. Its intentionally false and misleading.

What some of us are advocating are targeted military interventions with the intention to remove leaders and resources from ISIS in order to contain them, arrest their growth and dishearten them. Not to mention proving that their prophecies are incorrect. As well as providing humanitarian aide to those in need. There is no moral equivalency between targeted military action against those who would harm innocents and ISIS which DOES advocate genocide and killing of innocents.

Two things here. 1. I never said that ISIS was correct in what they are doing. I disapprove strongly with their tactics. And if one were to even do a cursory review of history and other faiths, one would find that they, too, did similar things. and 2. I continue to disapprove of targeting anything in retaliation. You will never get me to agree to this. That was the point of my post.

 

[JoStories]

If one's faith says that children should be made sexual slaves -- damn right I am asking one to abandon their faith. Perhaps "abandon" is not the right word. I am asking them to reconsider what their faith teaches about G-d's purpose and intent for the world. I am asking them to consider the historical context during which the message was delivered. I am asking them to give some flexibility to literalism. I am asking them to come to a different conclusion about certain ideas presented in scripture.

How is what they are doing now any different than what Christians did 500 years ago? Its not different. The Inquisition slaughtered tens of thousands for NO reason. What of what they did to my people?? Forcing us to abandon our ways because they found them to be 'a part of the devil'. What of the Burning Times? Women burned or hanged for working with herbs. The Mormons practiced polygamy with girls that were VERY young. Some still do, even though it is illegal. The Muslims, those who are not terrorists, are going through exactly what the Christians did. And what of what Israel is doing to Palestine? They bomb and kill innocents as well. Is that right?? Over a piece of land? I don't think so.

 

[JoStories]

Yes it is unfair. So is Islamic genocide and terrorism.

But here is my problem. This religion is causing more global problems to all kinds of people not part of it. This needs to be addressed in a better way then dropping bombs and constant war since the religion started. It is not solving anything.

Education solves a lot.




I believe You have agreed with me in the past "moderation" is the key to religious success. I'm not all out for removal. I wish to promote moderation.

I understand we cannot get all Christians on board and say "don't believe in the resurrection because its probably mythology" Or telling Jews "two gods compiled" into one god does not make it real. So no were not going to tell muslims they are living around "plagiarized traditions".




Why not? There would never be genocide again and Islamic illiteracy would be addressed not ignored. I first and foremost stand for better education and increasing communication to further knowledge. I am not an anti theist provided moderation is used.

I am pro education and anti fanaticism and anti fundamentalism.

THINK about reform as attacking the fanaticism, not the religion for me please.

Islam is the only religion that as a whole has Islamic science that is taught to all and everyone. Islam also has no division of church and state.

Yes we have Christian science, but these are fundamentalist the public frowns on.

Do you think Islamic reform could in the future reduce the sectarian violence that causes so much genocide due to religious belief alone.

Taking your comments one at a time.
1. Christianity did just as much damage 500 years ago. How is that different? I agree education solves a lot but as I have said in other posts, I have friends who are Muslim and highly educated, to the level I am Outhouse. You are lumping ALL people into one group. How is that different than what the Blacks endured at the hands of the White Man?
2. Yes, we agree on moderation but you are taking a radical view here Outhouse. Would you ask me to abandon my own faith because you don't like it? Because you feel it is based on mythology? Trust me, I am educated. You know this. What would your moderation look like? Would you ask all peoples of faith to admit they are deluded? I don't see that as moderation.
3. Your last remarks are pretty much the same as for #2. You are asking an entire group of peoples to live by your rules. I see the benefit in education and moderation but you and I both know that religion has never been about moderation. Some, yes. Most would defend their faith and tell you to go pound sand. You mention the Scientologists and the public frowning on them. Yet, I don't see that helping, do you? They tell people with mental illness not to take meds. Or women to make NO sound during childbirth. Are you freaking kidding me? I would like to have a man have a child and make no noise. Get a grip people.

 

[JoStories]

You may be much kinder in your approach as to where I hit the truth on the head.

I agree if you showed them the koran was plagiarized from the bible, instead of divine revelation, you would find dissent.

Sugar, how I am here on this forum is exactly how I am in life. I am kind. To the best of my ability. I find rancor to be counter productive. Its pretty rare here for someone to be rude to me. A few, I grant you but those we can agree are those who are so steeped in their faith as to be exactly what we are talking about. Those Christians who refuse to budge on things, just like you say of the Muslims. Anyway, good morning my love and I hope your day is blessed. (no offense love!!)

 

[JoStories]

If one's faith says that children should be made sexual slaves -- damn right I am asking one to abandon their faith. Perhaps "abandon" is not the right word. I am asking them to reconsider what their faith teaches about G-d's purpose and intent for the world. I am asking them to consider the historical context during which the message was delivered. I am asking them to give some flexibility to literalism. I am asking them to come to a different conclusion about certain ideas presented in scripture.

Would you ask all of Judaism to start eating pork because that admonition is no longer germane today. Would you ask them to have those who are true conservatives to allow dancing between unmarried people? Or stop with Bar Mitzvah/Bat Mitzvah because its antiquated? I was privileged to attend a Bat Mitzvah of a dear friend's daughter and the curtain hanging between the men and the women was fascinating. You want a group of people to live up to your ideals. Would you abandon your own if asked?

 

[MARCELLO]

My mouth leaves wide open when I see jews criticizing islamic traditions as if jews are no weird when the subject is traditions without reason. Are not jews the one who choppes off foreskin of penis of male babies when they are a week old, keep 2 separate sinks not to mix milk and meat? Look at your hair styles? Keeping sidelocks that much long? On the name of God? Also polygamy is not banned in Judaism. The life of a charedi is no more different than the life of wahabi. Just less in numbers.

Dear Shusha,I wish you did not convert yourself into new things,stay where you are.

 

[Shusha]

Oh wow. Are you two seriously comparing the sexual slavery of children to eating pork as if there was a moral equivalence? Are you seriously defending the right of Muslims to keep captive and rape female children because it is an Islamic tradition or directive given in the Qu'ran?

 

[outhouse]

Anyway, good morning my love and I hope your day is blessed. (no offense love!!)

You know I always welcome your advise and have the highest respect.

 

[metis]

My mouth leaves wide open when I see jews criticizing islamic traditions as if jews are no weird when the subject is traditions without reason. Are not jews the one who choppes off foreskin of penis of male babies when they are a week old, keep 2 separate sinks not to mix milk and meat? Look at your hair styles? Keeping sidelocks that much long? On the name of God? Also polygamy is not banned in Judaism. The life of a charedi is no more different than the life of wahabi. Just less in numbers.

Each religious and non-religious group has its traditions, and that's all fine and dandy as long as they're not causing suffering in their group or with others. Also, Jews are no longer polygamous, although there is one splinter group that would like to restore it.