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"Love thy enemy": Some thoughts on Paris

outhouse

Atheistically
Have you forgotten the vast numbers of people killed in the name of Christianity?

Absolutely not. I'm not sticking up for fanaticism in any religion. Only pointing out the worst that some religions breed more then others.

But that was in our primitive past, not 2015.

How is that not what the Christian Church in the form of RCC did during the Crusades, the Inquisition and so on?

Again we are talking about 2015. Or our modern lives.



I have several Sunni friends who are nothing like you describe

To be a muslim requires fanaticism and extreme fundamentalism, my own family shows me this.

Their religion is more a way of life then any other religion. could you imagine if there were 2B YEC in the world? The fanaticism is the same between YEC and all muslims in my honest opinion.
 

Shusha

Member
Not really because to get that 'small slice of your homeland back', you, too, are killing innocents by bombing. Do you deny that? In my culture, which is NA, NO ONE owns the land. There was a time when all land was considered a part of the NA heritage but when the White Men came and took what was not their's, we were consigned to parcels of land. Now we have 'reservations' which are a very tiny part of what was once much more. And even so, while we aren't happy, we are not bombing our neighbors. We are protesting in some areas, but that is it. Its peaceful. Do you see the difference?

I am sorry for the oppression your people have suffered and the indignities your people continue to have to face. I have considerable empathy.

But I'm not sure what you are arguing for here? That military action is never permissible? That peaceful protests are the only morally acceptable response to terrorism? That peaceful protests will be efficacious against an opponent who desires to exterminate or enslave you and your people? That oppression should be tolerated and accepted because then, at least, people won't die?

Is that what you think France should be doing? Do you think the French government should be handing out protest signs saying, "Hey ISIS, we'd really appreciate it if you didn't send over any more suicide bombers, because, well, we think its wrong to kill us." Do you think the French government should accept the terms ISIS offers? "Hey, yeah, no problem -- we'll accept Sharia law, we'll subjugate ourselves to Muslim rulers as second class citizens, and yep, that jizyah tax is just fine."

Do you think the Yazidi people should accept ISIS' terms? "Sure, take my nine year old daughter and sell her into sexual slavery, rape her every day and beat her if she protests or cries out."

Do you think the Jewish people should accept ISIS' terms when they say, "We are coming for you. We will hunt you down and kill every last one of you until there is not a single Jew alive on the earth."

The intent and the end goal of the actors matters a very great deal. That was the point of my post. The reason that First Nations peoples in the US, Canada and Australia, are ABLE to have peaceful protests, as well as to conduct negotiations for self-determination, land use, resources and sovereignty, is because the intent of the other party is not the subjugation, enslavement, ethnic cleansing or extermination of the First Nations peoples.
 

Useless2015

Active Member
Ideology of ownership of land based on the "rights" of belonging to the "correct" faith. ISIS thinks the whole earth belongs to Muslims. Do you? Why or why not?
Its not an ideology, its a fact. Y
Except for that pesky bit where he wanted to kill a bunch of innocent people.
Well, who are we to judge. If you were born into a life filled with blood and despair, you will probably stop feeling emotion at one point. An eye for an eye kicks in and you get Al Qaida,IS etc.
 

Useless2015

Active Member
So muslims are easily led astray to become vindictive and hate filled genocidal cowardly terrorist ?

Well i can't really relate to that. I was born in a very safe and liberated society. I never expierenced anything shocking really. So i can't really make a judgement call, i find that pretty hard to imagine. I think however that losing your loved ones for no reason whatsoever would make you snap. I can understand that. I am sure you can too right?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Remember if your born into a muslim society, you may not have a real portrayal of what our role actually is due to the biased media in many countries.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Its not an ideology, its a fact. Y

Well, who are we to judge. If you were born into a life filled with blood and despair, you will probably stop feeling emotion at one point. An eye for an eye kicks in and you get Al Qaida,IS etc.
Well as someone who is against the murder of innocent human beings - I will judge all I want. Thanks. There is no excuse for such actions.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Well i can't really relate to that. I was born in a very safe and liberated society. I never expierenced anything shocking really. So i can't really make a judgement call, i find that pretty hard to imagine. I think however that losing your loved ones for no reason whatsoever would make you snap. I can understand that. I am sure you can too right?
Sure, but that doesn't make it acceptable to hurt innocent people.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
I am sorry for the oppression your people have suffered and the indignities your people continue to have to face. I have considerable empathy.

But I'm not sure what you are arguing for here? That military action is never permissible? That peaceful protests are the only morally acceptable response to terrorism? That peaceful protests will be efficacious against an opponent who desires to exterminate or enslave you and your people? That oppression should be tolerated and accepted because then, at least, people won't die?

Is that what you think France should be doing? Do you think the French government should be handing out protest signs saying, "Hey ISIS, we'd really appreciate it if you didn't send over any more suicide bombers, because, well, we think its wrong to kill us." Do you think the French government should accept the terms ISIS offers? "Hey, yeah, no problem -- we'll accept Sharia law, we'll subjugate ourselves to Muslim rulers as second class citizens, and yep, that jizyah tax is just fine."

Do you think the Yazidi people should accept ISIS' terms? "Sure, take my nine year old daughter and sell her into sexual slavery, rape her every day and beat her if she protests or cries out."

Do you think the Jewish people should accept ISIS' terms when they say, "We are coming for you. We will hunt you down and kill every last one of you until there is not a single Jew alive on the earth."

The intent and the end goal of the actors matters a very great deal. That was the point of my post. The reason that First Nations peoples in the US, Canada and Australia, are ABLE to have peaceful protests, as well as to conduct negotiations for self-determination, land use, resources and sovereignty, is because the intent of the other party is not the subjugation, enslavement, ethnic cleansing or extermination of the First Nations peoples.
Ideally? Yes, I would love to see it handled that way. Of course, that is not going to happen and I am not that naive. So, given that, I would love to see it happen that France finds and arrests the person or persons responsible and deals with them as their laws see fit. The problem is that that will not stop this. The question then becomes what will? Clearly the world will not bend a knee to radicals. I would never expect that, nor want that. OTOH, there HAS to be some middle ground. What the hell is it these people want? World domination? Never going to happen so get real folks. What else? If it means hitting all the leaders of these deluded fools, I can see that. But not the slaughter of millions of innocents simply because they are Muslim. That is genocide and would place us at their level. Is that what we truly want? Who wins? No one, that's who.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
But not the slaughter of millions of innocents simply because they are Muslim.

That's is not how our liberal government would ever handle the situation.

There are muslims in our government.

I think there needs to be serious reforms in islam, but that is just my opinion.
 

Useless2015

Active Member
Then why not face the fact the number one killer of a muslim is another muslim? not the west.

You got any statistics and facts to back that up or are you assuming? Let me remind you that the weapons and tanks IS uses is a gift from America.
What? They attacked the French on their own soil.
Once after the intial 1000 attacks by France on IS soil? You call this self defense...?
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
Absolutely not. I'm not sticking up for fanaticism in any religion. Only pointing out the worst that some religions breed more then others.

But that was in our primitive past, not 2015.



Again we are talking about 2015. Or our modern lives.





To be a muslim requires fanaticism and extreme fundamentalism, my own family shows me this.

Their religion is more a way of life then any other religion. could you imagine if there were 2B YEC in the world? The fanaticism is the same between YEC and all muslims in my honest opinion.
Dear one, I have a PhD level prepared friend who happens to be Muslim. He is a peaceful man and a Sunni who does not support these people in any way or form. Does that not count for something? I mean, come on now, you are categorizing all by the actions of the few. Shall I think all white men are bigots based on the actions of the few?
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
That's is not how our liberal government would ever handle the situation.

There are muslims in our government.

I think there needs to be serious reforms in islam, but that is just my opinion.
IMO, that view is biased Outhouse. You know I love you sugar but with this topic, we differ. What Islam is going through is what Christianity did 500 years ago. I don't condone them in any way, the radicals that is however neither do I condemn them based on the actions of the few. I try to see good in all people, I think you know that about me by now. I am kind to just about everyone, and I will point out that I did say "just about everyone". I have trouble with those who hold ignorant views. Not you love but others. So we still disagree but I do still love you dearly. Kiss Kiss darling.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
He is a peaceful man and a Sunni who does not support these people in any way or form. Does that not count for something?

I think maybe you take me out of context.

When I say they refuse academia and knowledge as a requirement to the religion. Lets face some knowledge.

They all believe a man who took a child wife, got a message from god, when we know his cousin was a Christian. None will admit the plagiarism of previous traditions, and few admit he spread this message by sword. Ok so not really any different from most religions so far.

My problem is they are required to live the mythology much deeper then any other. I do not classify all with the negative. I understand most are great people. It is however still deep fanaticism and fundamentalism to live islam. Much more so then other religions.
 
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