Love your enemies

[Unveiled Artist]

Actually, this is most likely why people believe in christ. They can't forgive themselves and others, so they lean on someone else that can "for them". By doing so, their hate and so forth ideally dies (or crucified at the cross) so they can show love etc. I've known many people who say "I Can't do it alone!" If someone has self-negativity and so forth because of others, I can see why some would go to christ.

Just a thought that popped up.

 

[ChristineM]

Do you believe giving love is a reflection of yourself and who you are or is your love dependent on other people based on their actions and not your own?

I'd summarize that those who did you and your loved ones wrong shouldn't cripple you out of love. I Know this is an understatement but in general, wouldn't our love reflect the person who gives it and not cripple that person based on whether the other person receives and should receive it or not?

Anger and harsh feelings for others are justified in many cases. It's human nature. That's quite different than making these feelings the essence of your values. I don't like people who kill. Of course they should be reprehended and suffer consequences for their actions for the safety of the community and person. That doesn't change I do not care for killing regardless of the other person's actions. But sometimes our values are broken because of our experiences and unfortunately made secondary for the wellbeing of another.

Why let our experiences break who we are IF who we are is based on our reactions to other people's behavior and not our own?

(Both posts are pretty much the same I noticed. I think this one is clearer).

Love is meaningful to me, it is not given willynilly, I dont love because thats what i am told to do, or my group thinks its the right thing to do, or some holy book say i must otherwise i cannot be a true member of whichever club worships the book. For me love includes respect for the recipient. And like redpect it needs to be earned.

As i said in the last post, i think we have different concepts of what love is?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Do you love your enemies?

No. I remove them from my life and forget about them.

As @epronovost implied, the advice to love one's enemies is not in the interest of the one loving, but of the enemy. It appears in the Bible along with a variety of other claims such as it is blessed to be meek or to offer your enemy the other cheek to smite as part of an attempt to cause people to tolerate exploitation without rising up. It's all about submitting to the more powerful without complaint. Be long-suffering. Your reward will come after death if you just accept your lot without resistance or objection now. That's what kings and emperors want out of religion. Here are some people who agree:

• "How can you have order in a state without religion? For, when one man is dying of hunger near another who is ill of surfeit, he cannot resign himself to this difference unless there is an authority which declares 'God wills it thus.' Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet. Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich." - Napoleon Bonaparte

• "If you want to control a population and keep them passive ... give them a god to worship" ~ Noam Chomsky

• "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." -Seneca the Younger

Love your enemy is advice from an enemy that serves him, not you. Discard enemies from your life as you accumulate friends. That's my advice.

I think if you love your enemies, by default you've forgiven them.

Forgiveness is overrated as well. I don't forgive without a reason, and that reason will always be one that is intended to repair a relationship that still has value. Thus, I forgave my sister for something that I wouldn't forgive a stranger for. That relationship still had value, and we needed to get past our problem to preserve it. With a stranger or in a superficial relationship, there is usually reason to forgive.

That doesn't mean that I actively hold a grudge, just that if I considered somebody's actions unacceptable once, I don't see why that would change. I would add the advice to forgive everybody to the list above of items that enemies would advise others in their own interest.

In time, everyone will Discover that the price for Hate will always be too high.

Hate isn't necessary, but I've never found it to be much of a problem to experience. It's often purifying. And here I am referring not to an emotion like anger or rage, but a cool assessment that somebody or something is loathsome. Some people only improve the world by leaving it.

It is fine to hate them. I consider all of the hatred of the American president to be a healthy reaction to him. It's those that don't hate such behavior and values that I have a problem with.

 

[ChristineM]

Hm. I can't think of another word for it. I see our positive values a reflection of ourselves. So, if I forgive someone (though very very hard) it's not for their benefit but for my own. It's how I want to be and see others. It also telling myself that regardless what the other person does, I stand up for me and "you can't harm me". This is ideal, of course. I've been through a lot too. Just contextually, when I see you I shouldn't say "she is a hater" because of someone else. Of course we do hate etc. I'd hopefully say "she sees people out of positivity" despite anyone who tries to knock her down.

Of course, not everyone has this type of value. I'm just not keen that our values have to be broken or shaped by someone else.

Basically, I don't define people by their actions. If I did, gosh, I'd be a hermit.

Having no love for someone does not imply hate. Indifference to someone does not imply hate. Life is not binary.

I can only define people by their actions, what else is there? It has earned me some very good friends and has also saved me considerable pain, not enough unfortunately because people can come across as genuine and honest to gain your confidence, even love then let the act go.

 

[Audie]

Actually, this is most likely why people believe in christ. They can't forgive themselves and others, so they lean on someone else that can "for them". By doing so, their hate and so forth ideally dies (or crucified at the cross) so they can show love etc. I've known many people who say "I Can't do it alone!" If someone has self-negativity and so forth because of others, I can see why some would go to christ.

Just a thought that popped up.

There are a lot of other reasons.

 

[Audie]

No. I remove them from my life and forget about them.

As @epronovost implied, the advice to love one's enemies is not in the interest of the one loving, but of the enemy. It appears in the Bible along with a variety of other claims such as it is blessed to be meek or to offer your enemy the other cheek to smite as part of an attempt to cause people to tolerate exploitation without rising up. It's all about submitting to the more powerful without complaint. Be long-suffering. Your reward will come after death if you just accept your lot without resistance or objection now. That's what kings and emperors want out of religion. Here are some people who agree:

• "How can you have order in a state without religion? For, when one man is dying of hunger near another who is ill of surfeit, he cannot resign himself to this difference unless there is an authority which declares 'God wills it thus.' Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet. Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich." - Napoleon Bonaparte

• "If you want to control a population and keep them passive ... give them a god to worship" ~ Noam Chomsky

• "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." -Seneca the Younger

Love your enemy is advice from an enemy that serves him, not you. Discard enemies from your life as you accumulate friends. That's my advice.



Forgiveness is overrated as well. I don't forgive without a reason, and that reason will always be one that is intended to repair a relationship that still has value. Thus, I forgave my sister for something that I wouldn't forgive a stranger for. That relationship still had value, and we needed to get past our problem to preserve it. With a stranger or in a superficial relationship, there is usually reason to forgive.

That doesn't mean that I actively hold a grudge, just that if I considered somebody's actions unacceptable once, I don't see why that would change. I would add the advice to forgive everybody to the list above of items that enemies would advise others in their own interest.



Hate isn't necessary, but I've never found it to be much of a problem to experience. It's often purifying. And here I am referring not to an emotion like anger or rage, but a cool assessment that somebody or something is loathsome. Some people only improve the world by leaving it.

It is fine to hate them. I consider all of the hatred of the American president to be a healthy reaction to him. It's those that don't hate such behavior and values that I have a problem with.

What values are those?

 

[Audie]

Also harmful to one's health is to suppress hatred...deny its
existence...& let it eat away at one's psyche while attempting
unconditional love for all humans. That is not what's best in life.

The self deception of claiming "i forgive" the next day after
someone murders a family member, say, cannot possibly be
healthy.
As I said, these "unconditional" people are advocating for
something totally against human nature.
Its no more real that the "new Soviet man".

 

[ChristineM]

Actually, this is most likely why people believe in christ. They can't forgive themselves and others, so they lean on someone else that can "for them". By doing so, their hate and so forth ideally dies (or crucified at the cross) so they can show love etc. I've known many people who say "I Can't do it alone!" If someone has self-negativity and so forth because of others, I can see why some would go to christ.

Just a thought that popped up.

i find its more pseudo lovers who follow Christ.

 

[Revoltingest]

The self deception of claiming "i forgive" the next day after
someone murders a family member, say, cannot possibly be
healthy.
As I said, these "unconditional" people are advocating for
something totally against human nature.
Its no more real that the "new Soviet man".

Maybe some can do this universal unconditional
love thing without deleterious effects. Not for me.

 

[Audie]

Maybe come can do this universal unconditional
love thing without deleterious effects. Not for me.

Nobody can do it, regardless of whether it would
be deleterious if they succeeded.

In the process of trying, it looks to me
as if the word "love" becomes so spread
out, diffused as to have no meaning.

 

[Jainarayan]

Forgiveness is overrated as well. I don't forgive without a reason, and that reason will always be one that is intended to repair a relationship that still has value. Thus, I forgave my sister for something that I wouldn't forgive a stranger for. That relationship still had value, and we needed to get past our problem to preserve it. With a stranger or in a superficial relationship, there is usually reason to forgive.

Right. My parents were very ignorant old-world people, even though they were US-born (early 1900s). My grandparents came here "on the boat" from Italy and Sicily (late 1800s - early 1900s). I'm a baby boomer (1957). There were things my parents did for reasons I need not go into, but I do understand, that years ago caused me a lot of emotional anguish. A therapist I worked with told me they could only use the tools they had, they couldn't be anything more than they were. It took me some time to digest that but I eventually did. I was able to put everything into perspective and let go of my anger and bitterness towards them.

That doesn't mean that I actively hold a grudge, just that if I considered somebody's actions unacceptable once, I don't see why that would change. I would add the advice to forgive everybody to the list above of items that enemies would advise others in their own interest.

I very, very rarely hold grudges. Which is out of character for Sicilians. "Vendetta" is a Sicilian language word. We taught the Klingons that "revenge is a dish best served cold". I may forgive but I won't forget. If I forget, I may let that sort of thing happen again.

 

[Audie]

hatred is not healthy. first i'm accused of not knowing what violence is from first person experience. then i'm accused of not understanding you.

anger is healthy. hatred is a long term emotion that involves an attachment to something that was temporal. people do negative things out of hatred, the lack of love. hatred causes people to transfer a temporal event into long term actions because of similarities that are not necessarily justified and the person behaves that way because of a trigger.


you are attempting to justify hatred as healthy. it isn't

“I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.” - Frank Herbert - Dune

― Frank Herbert, Dune

Not accusing, stating facts. And you certainly do not
have first hand experience remotely comparable to mine.

I am not angry, nor do I hate the monster who hurt me.

You are gibbering garbage about "long term, temporal
events, triggers", that have zero to do with me which I
thought I had made clear. Your cookie cutter ideas
are as obvious as I said they are, but you dont know
when they apply and when the do not. AS IN-

Your certainly do not understand me as again exemplified
with your last sentence, more cookie cutter.

I am doing nothing of the kind.

 

[Audie]

Love is meaningful to me, it is not given willynilly, I dont love because thats what i am told to do, or my group thinks its the right thing to do, or some holy book say i must otherwise i cannot be a true member of whichever club worships the book. For me love includes respect for the recipient. And like redpect it needs to be earned.

As i said in the last post, i think we have different concepts of what love is?

Compared to western / christian...
Chinese culture has such a different idea about what
love is, we really dont even have a way to say,
"I love you".
In any case, talk is cheap, love is in what you do,
not what you chant.

Our culture is to be somewhat distant with strangers,
but if someone is in, they are in. Love / loyalty
is not "hello, I love you"!

 

[Fool]

Not accusing, stating facts. And you certainly do not
have first hand experience remotely comparable to mine.

I am not angry, nor do I hate the monster who hurt me.

You are gibbering garbage about "long term, temporal
events, triggers", that have zero to do with me which I
thought I had made clear. Your cookie cutter ideas
are as obvious as I said they are, but you dont know
when they apply and when the do not. AS IN-

Your certainly do not understand me as again exemplified
with your last sentence, more cookie cutter.

I am doing nothing of the kind.

the science disagrees.

it isn't a competition.


like i said. 5h!t happens. you either get stuck in it or you grow from it.

 

[Audie]

the science disagrees.

Science says I am angry and hate the man who hurt me.
Science says you have comparable experience.
Science says you are right on all points and I am wrong.

Right. You are so full of it.

 

[ChristineM]

Compared to western / christian...
Chinese culture has such a different idea about what
love is, we really dont even have a way to say,
"I love you".
In any case, talk is cheap, love is in what you do,
not what you chant.

Our culture is to be somewhat distant with strangers,
but if someone is in, they are in. Love / loyalty
is not "hello, I love you"!

Yes, i have very close Chinese friends who are (hopefully, nothing concrete yet) soon coming to stay with us for a week before a trip to Italy.

Jack thought me a wonderful trick for use in Chinese restaurants. Typically a brit in a Chinese restaurant always orders beer or larger before anything else. (I usually ordered water). The trick is to order green tea, nothing could be simpler. But it earns respect and effectively guarantees outstanding service.

 

[ChristineM]

Science says I am angry and hate the man who hurt me.
Science says you have comparable experience.
Science says you are right on all points and I am wrong.

Right. You are so full of it.

Some people have no concept of reality but consider the emotion as a binary force. They can't help it i am sure, but it's bloody annoying when ignorant people tell you how you feel.

 

[Audie]

Yes, i have very close Chinese friends who are (hopefully, nothing concrete yet) soon coming to stay with us for a week before a trip to Italy.

Jack thought me a wonderful trick for use in Chinese restaurants. Typically a brit in a Chinese restaurant always orders beer or larger before anything else. (I usually ordered water). The trick is to order green tea, nothing could be simpler. But it earns respect and effectively guarantees outstanding service.

Good idea. Ice water is so unsuitable,
but they will serve it anyway, if people want it.

Where are your friends from?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Do you believe you can love your enemies?

If so, would it make sense to call the person you love an enemy?

Love your enemies means for example loving (and forgiving) Hitler.

Do you love your enemies?

No. I love only those who warrant my love.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

As i said in the last post, i think we have different concepts of what love is?

Probably so. I don't use the word, really. I wasn't raised using the phrase I love you and things like that. My mother has always been if you don't "do" this, than you don't appreciate what I do for you.

Without the expressive-verbal and inner-expression of love not just what you do is very valuable to me.

Also, I have an illness that affects my behavior and sometimes what I say. So, if someone judgest me by my behavior, I can't tell if it's "mine" that's based on my values or something as a result of my illness. So, I rather people believe what I tell them cause they can get misreadings from what I do. If they don't ask for clarification and just assume, it hurts me more cause it becomes a judgement of my character both my faults and not.

So love is more understanding, appreciation, trust, etc.

Love for humanity, I see differently. I can't hate people or not love them because of what they have done. Knowing that I am just the same (I am human too and have the same capability to do what they did) not loving them as a person is not loving myself.

I disagree with their actions and of course I wouldn't put myself in danger. If I experienced what many people have such as yourself, I don't know where I would be mentally. That doesn't change how I feel about people and loving people as a human being. No one is worthy of my love. I'm not special. If I know I'm worthy of my love I can give it despite someone else's behavior.

The links Fool listed are good references. It shares how forgiveness helps the person doing the forgiving. That, and many people feel because they forgive it's doing the other person a favor. We can choose not to forgive, of course. Personally, I (edit don't) feel people need to earn my forgiveness. I'm pretty selfish in that regards. It's for myself first. If someone else benefits, cool but I shouldn't set my feelings aside or be indifferent to them when I know I can benefit from forgiveness more than I can than setting it aside and move on. It keep the pain inner rather than setting it free.

I'm very expressive because that's my nature. If I can't express myself, I'd be subject to my behavior. When I can't judge my behavior at times and most of the times I can, it makes me conflicted. So, that's why.

I don't use love often because I value what people say. If they lie, of course, it leads to mistrust. I just don't now how to withhold my values as if I have something they should be worthy of receiving.