love your neighbor....really?

[waitasec]

i wonder what "love your neighbor", "love your enemy" really means...
i have my doubts it means to love everyone, no matter who they are, but rather it was meant to love everyone in israel's camp for the sake of solidarity.

even the good samaritan story is a story about 2 jewish sects that are not on friendly terms but, nevertheless, are a part of israel's camp... had the story been about a jew helping a roman or the other way around, then it would seem that everyone is to love everyone, no matter their association or who they were...but from what i can tell, it means to love your own ...or those who wish to convert to your way of life. lev 19:33

consider the the following passage in the gospel of mark.
who is jesus talking to? a teacher of jewish law i would suppose, since he over heard jesus debating with the sadducees and approached jesus.

mark 12: 28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[f] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[g] There is no commandment greater than these.”
jesus was quoting lev 19:18

if you read the context of leviticus in which this passage in mark is based on
god is speaking to moses and says...
2 “Speak to the entire assembly of Israel and say to them...."
‘Do not deceive one another...

12 “‘Do not swear falsely by my name and so profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.

13 “‘Do not defraud or rob your neighbor....
16 “‘Do not go about spreading slander among your people.
“‘Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor’s life. I am the LORD.
Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in their guilt.
18 “‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD."

33 “‘When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. 34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God."

did the entire assembly of isreal not already know this...? of course they did...but i believe this was a way to establish a standard among their people to live peacefully with in the camp by give the israelites a sense of unity in order for them to successfully thrive in their society.

yet in other stories we have god ordering his chosen to not only to murder but to commit genocide of other peoples...

When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you may nations...then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them and show them no mercy." deuteronomy 7:1-2

"...do not leave alive anything that breaths. Completely destroy them...as the Lord your God has commanded you..." deuteronomy 20:16

my question is, what basis do christians have to assume love your neighbor means to love everyone?

 

[Riverwolf]

Probably this passage from the Sermon on the Mount:

"You have heard it said, 'love your neighbor, hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for your persecutors, so that you may become children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on evil and good alike, and sends rain on the just and the unjust. For if you love only those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? If you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

 

[waitasec]

Probably this passage from the Sermon on the Mount:

"You have heard it said, 'love your neighbor, hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for your persecutors, so that you may become children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on evil and good alike, and sends rain on the just and the unjust. For if you love only those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? If you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

i can see that and thank you for brining that up...
i wonder who was in the crowd...he speaks about the gentiles but not to them because he's comparing the crowd to the gentiles.

 

[waitasec]

" If you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?"
there were followers of jesus and people who thought jesus was not who he claimed to be...it seems as though he was speaking to his followers (brothers and sisters) to accept those who do not believe as they do...

 

[Skwim]

What strikes me as amusing is that here we have a "loving" god who deliberately infused the world with evil and then challenges us to fight its grip on us. It's like arcade games where the goal is deliberately designed with obstacles that will more likely than not cause the player to lose. While such man-made amusements are innocently entertaining, this is not the case of with god's game. Real people actually suffer in his game of Beat My Evil.

 

[Riverwolf]

" If you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?"
there were followers of jesus and people who thought jesus was not who he claimed to be...it seems as though he was speaking to his followers (brothers and sisters) to accept those who do not believe as they do...

Honestly, I think you're reading too deeply into that passage. If you take it apart, it's quite clear that he's saying "do more than others (in this case, in terms of love)." The maximum of this would be loving all people and all things equally.

 

[waitasec]

Honestly, I think you're reading too deeply into that passage. If you take it apart, it's quite clear that he's saying "do more than others (in this case, in terms of love)." The maximum of this would be loving all people and all things equally.

maybe i am
but then he goes on and compares the crowd to the gentiles...who aren't there...for me he is speaking to his followers and to curious jews.

on a side note;
the mount of olives has been compared to the mount of sinai giving jesus a moses like quality...
and as i pointed out in the OP the mount of sinai was in the presence of the assembly of israel...
from what i understand, there were many many "messiah's", jesus was just one of them and it caused division among the jewish people.

edit...
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/w...rss&adxnnlx=1301249806-Dr4p1a37qCz9f47eH7xb7Q

 

[Penumbra]

Based on the context throughout the gospels, I think that it means to love everyone. Now, I'd argue that Jesus has some pretty hateful and very unloving views, especially when it comes to a proposed afterlife, but his message seems to be that at least in this life, everyone is to love everyone regardless of cultural boundaries.

Riverwolf posted an example of a verse, and I'd suggest that one of the verses in the OP argues the same:

33 “‘When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. 34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God."

So he's even bringing other nationalities into it.

I think that like everyone else, Jesus had a local view and only knew a portion of the world. He fell prey to ethnocentrism like so many others. But, based on his examples of using different sorts of people that he knew of, such as Samaritans and Gentiles, and forgiving the Romans, his character seems to not make distinctions between behavior towards different groups.

 

[waitasec]

Based on the context throughout the gospels, I think that it means to love everyone. Now, I'd argue that Jesus has some pretty hateful and very unloving views, especially when it comes to a proposed afterlife, but his message seems to be that at least in this life, everyone is to love everyone regardless of cultural boundaries.

Riverwolf posted an example of a verse, and I'd suggest that one of the verses in the OP argues the same:

33 “‘When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. 34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God."

So he's even bringing other nationalities into it.

I think that like everyone else, Jesus had a local view and only knew a portion of the world. He fell prey to ethnocentrism like so many others. But, based on his examples of using different sorts of people that he knew of, such as Samaritans and Gentiles, and forgiving the Romans, his character seems to not make distinctions between behavior towards different groups.

those who convert to the jewish way of life...
matthew 15

The Faith of a Canaanite Woman

21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”
23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.

jesus calls the canaanites dogs and she agrees...
then he heals her daughter...

 

[waitasec]

in other words, love those who believe as you do even during disagreements or in times of
strife because what is important is what unites them, in this case believing jesus is the messiah.
if others choose to believe as you do, then accept them into the flock...

 

[Penumbra]

those who convert to the jewish way of life...
matthew 15

The Faith of a Canaanite Woman

21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”
23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.

jesus calls the canaanites dogs and she agrees...
then he heals her daughter...

Yes, I've seen that passage before. There are some things to note, though.

-Despite being a jerk before hand, he did heal the daughter.
-It's difficult to tell in the context whether he was being totally sarcastic in order to comment on culture (his character was indeed quite witty), or whether he really is that bigoted. Here he says he was only sent for the lost sheep of Israel, but later he says to preach the message to all nations of the world. It's contradictory (which is common in the Bible), unless he was being sarcastic this time.
-Based on the points that he used Samaritans, Egyptians, Romans, and Gentiles in general as examples, I don't think there exists reasonable evidence to suggest he only meant to love people in the community, despite the observation that he was clearly ethnocentric and that his primary audience was other Jews.

 

[fahrenheit]

28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.

jesus calls the canaanites dogs and she agrees...
then he heals her daughter...

Jesus was testing her faith, it may seem in life that God has turned His back to us but as long as we remains strong to our Lord He will not forsake us.

 

[Penumbra]

in other words, love those who believe as you do even during disagreements or in times of
strife because what is important is what unites them, in this case believing jesus is the messiah.
if others choose to believe as you do, then accept them into the flock...

Yes, but there's a big difference between accepting someone into their flock, and being kind and polite towards all people, and going out of one's way to help them.

There are people I care about that I don't particularly want to chill with, if you know what I mean.

 

[waitasec]

Yes, I've seen that passage before. There are some things to note, though.

-Despite being a jerk before hand, he did heal the daughter.

he healed her only because she conceded to being a part of a lowly group...and confessed jesus

-It's difficult to tell in the context whether he was being totally sarcastic in order to comment on culture (his character was indeed quite witty), or whether he really is that bigoted. Here he says he was only sent for the lost sheep of Israel, but later he says to preach the message to all nations of the world. It's contradictory (which is common in the Bible), unless he was being sarcastic this time.

in the gospel of mark the context was (unless there is another passage you thinking about)
"You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them. 10 And the gospel must first be preached to all nations."
meaning, 'warn them and they will have no excuse for not believing in me'

-Based on the points that he used Samaritans, Egyptians, Romans, and Gentiles in general as examples, I don't think there exists reasonable evidence to suggest he only meant to love people in the community, despite the observation that he was clearly ethnocentric and that his primary audience was other Jews.

i have always assumed that love your neighbor meant to love everyone, it has been a given a no brainer... but as i see, neighbor is to mean anyone who believes jesus is the messiah

he does tell his disciples to
matthew 10
11 Whatever town or village you enter, search there for some worthy person and stay at their house until you leave. 12 As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13 If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

 

[waitasec]

Yes, but there's a big difference between accepting someone into their flock, and being kind and polite towards all people, and going out of one's way to help them.

There are people I care about that I don't particularly want to chill with, if you know what I mean.

sure i get

but we innately believe in human solidarity, we have come to that understanding without the help of god telling us to do so...

i think jesus was just trying to keep the peace within the jewish community at large and to those "others" who confessed jesus as the messiah...

i wonder if there are any passages where jesus heals someone who doesn't confesses he is the messiah before he heals them...

 

[Penumbra]

he healed her only because she conceded to being a part of a lowly group...and confessed jesus

in the gospel of mark the context was (unless there is another passage you thinking about)
"You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them. 10 And the gospel must first be preached to all nations."
meaning, 'warn them and they will have no excuse for not believing in me'

i have always assumed that love your neighbor meant to love everyone, it has been a given a no brainer... but as i see, neighbor is to mean anyone who believes jesus is the messiah

he does tell his disciples to
matthew 10
11 Whatever town or village you enter, search there for some worthy person and stay at their house until you leave. 12 As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13 If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

Well, I'm not particularly interested in spending a lot of time defending a character I find to be highly immoral. I think your passages are getting a bit out of scope of your original point, though. I'm not saying that Jesus is a moral guy. I can post a dozen of his points that I find to be terrible.

The passage I was thinking of concerning preaching to all nations was in Matthew 24, not the one in Mark.

Yes, Jesus preached terrible things for people he didn't like, or that disagreed with him, etc. His views on the afterlife are abhorrent. When he mentions violence or retribution, he always mentions god rather than encouraging people to do it, though. His views can basically be summed up as "be good or god will do terrible things to you" (which is a pretty bad worldview and morality system).


In other words,
-Yes, Jesus was a pretty hateful guy, and had rather sadistic and egotistical tendencies.
-Yes, his love could be considered shallow, as he condones torture and malevolence, and his love has an expiration date.
-No, I don't think he meant that, in this life, people should only love their neighbors and not everyone. Several passages suggest that he taught to do no harm, regardless of the person's culture or actions, and to pray for them.

 

[waitasec]

Well, I'm not particularly interested in spending a lot of time defending a character I find to be highly immoral. I think your passages are getting a bit out of scope of your original point, though. I'm not saying that Jesus is a moral guy. I can post a dozen of his points that I find to be terrible.

The passage I was thinking of concerning preaching to all nations was in Matthew 24, not the one in Mark.

Yes, Jesus preached terrible things for people he didn't like, or that disagreed with him, etc. His views on the afterlife are abhorrent. When he mentions violence or retribution, he always mentions god rather than encouraging people to do it, though. His views can basically be summed up as "be good or god will do terrible things to you" (which is a pretty bad worldview and morality system).


In other words,
-Yes, Jesus was a pretty hateful guy, and had rather sadistic and egotistical tendencies.
-Yes, his love could be considered shallow, as he condones torture and malevolence, and his love has an expiration date.
-No, I don't think he meant that, in this life, people should only love their neighbors and not everyone.

thanks for playing devils advocate...

Several passages suggest that he taught to do no harm, regardless of the person's culture or actions, and to pray for them.

if you don't mind, can you give me any passages from the top of your head?

 

[waitasec]

Jesus was testing her faith, it may seem in life that God has turned His back to us but as long as we remains strong to our Lord He will not forsake us.

oh i agree jesus was testing her faith...she conceded after all.
but that is not the point i am making...

 

[Penumbra]

thanks for playing devils advocate...

if you don't mind, can you give me any passages from the top of your head?

It's not quite a dozen, but off the top of my head, I'd point you towards posts of mine from last month.

Check posts 16 and especially 21.
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...11366-did-jesus-ever-really-say-anything.html

 

[Riverwolf]

he healed her only because she conceded to being a part of a lowly group.

If that were the case, then he would have said so.

According to his words, he healed her because he had great faith in him; i.e., she was persistent, not because she necessarily agreed with him.