Loved ones in hell - take 2.

[Tiberius]

No, I do not see that because what I meant is that we won’t care about what we did in the past; I did not say we would not care about other people who we knew in the past

And you do not see how those are intricately tied together?

No, you are thinking of how it is in this life. In this life, our past continues to affect us at every subsequent point in time. We can never escape its influence on us. Thus we are always a result of our past. But the afterlife (heaven) is not the same as this earthly life. There is no past present and future because there is no time as we know it in this world!

Our life in this world shapes us and determines who we will be when we land at the afterlife landing strip, but after we enter the afterlife (heaven) we are no longer influenced by our past life in this world but rather we will start to grow and develop along a new line.

So, magic.

Have you got any evidence that Heaven is this way?

When I said we will have no free will I meant we will no longer be able to make moral choices which is what free will is used for in this world in order for us to become who we are, be it good or evil. I do not think we will be robots with no control over what we do. We just won’t be able to progress the same way we do here, by making moral choices. We will progress by the grace of God, prayers of others and good works done in our name. It will be so different that there is no way we can compare it to our life in this world.

“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157

How can there be no moral choices? I'm sure that there'd be a school of thought out there that would say that EVERY choice we could make is a moral choice in some way and to some degree.

 

[Trailblazer]

And you do not see how those are intricately tied together?

Maybe so, I don't really know for sure what we will be thinking about after we cross over to the spiritual world (heaven) and it may well vary by individual. Those who are attached to this world and cannot leave it behind might be thinking about it, but that would not be heaven, it would be hell.

So, magic.

Have you got any evidence that Heaven is this way?

If you mean verifiable evidence, no. I just have what is written in the Baha'i Writings. For example:

“Those who have passed on through death, have a sphere of their own. It is not removed from ours; their work, the work of the Kingdom, is ours; but it is sanctified from what we call ‘time and place.’ Time with us is measured by the sun. When there is no more sunrise, and no more sunset, that kind of time does not exist for man. Those who have ascended have different attributes from those who are still on earth, yet there is no real separation.” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in London, pp. 95-96

There is also what Baha'is have written. Death and Dying in the Bahá'í Faith

How can there be no moral choices? I'm sure that there'd be a school of thought out there that would say that EVERY choice we could make is a moral choice in some way and to some degree.

There can be no moral choices when everything is good in which case there is nothing evil to choose. But i already told you there will be no free will so no choices will be made at all.

 

[Tiberius]

Maybe so, I don't really know for sure what we will be thinking about after we cross over to the spiritual world (heaven) and it may well vary by individual. Those who are attached to this world and cannot leave it behind might be thinking about it, but that would not be heaven, it would be hell.

If you mean verifiable evidence, no. I just have what is written in the Baha'i Writings. For example:

“Those who have passed on through death, have a sphere of their own. It is not removed from ours; their work, the work of the Kingdom, is ours; but it is sanctified from what we call ‘time and place.’ Time with us is measured by the sun. When there is no more sunrise, and no more sunset, that kind of time does not exist for man. Those who have ascended have different attributes from those who are still on earth, yet there is no real separation.” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in London, pp. 95-96

There is also what Baha'is have written. Death and Dying in the Bahá'í Faith

There can be no moral choices when everything is good in which case there is nothing evil to choose. But i already told you there will be no free will so no choices will be made at all.

In that case, Heaven sounds simply like a place where we can't choose anything and we are mere shells of ourselves.

No thanks.

 

[Trailblazer]

In that case, Heaven sounds simply like a place where we can't choose anything and we are mere shells of ourselves.

No thanks.

That is certainly not what I was saying. We will be all of who were were at the moment we departed out of this world -- the sum total of our personality -- and then in heaven we will continue to progress and become more than we ever were here. I cannot say exactly how we will progress, as the afterlife remains a mystery of God.

“Know thou that every hearing ear, if kept pure and undefiled, must, at all times and from every direction, hearken to the voice that uttereth these holy words: “Verily, we are God’s, and to Him shall we return.” The mysteries of man’s physical death and of his return have not been divulged, and still remain unread.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 345

 

[rational experiences]

When a living human says all quotes living when the deceased body went to hell. Radiation deterioration to a body corpse no longer breathing oxygenating their body.

A scientific analogy.

Human science is human science by determined scientific analogy.

If you live you own choices logic or are not able to think for self harmed body brain state.

Logic for human bad behaviour

As we live God O earth heavens owns all reasons for human life living

Best life is the healthiest life

Any life today not healthy is a Dna human cell quote hurt in the past. Sex passes on the damaged information.

Or.....

DNA harmed today in extra radiating atmospheric causes.

Extra radiation is not hell.

Being change to a human living conscious life detailing body life advice whilst living.

Science details living and deceased life cell body conditions. Ancient science explanations used and spoke symbolic science language differently in its past.

Ie. K was once the symbol for a constant.

Was changed to a C by human choice.

As science language is a living human teaching. Symbolic. Taught to humans as science only. Symbolism is learnt first. Then if understood the symbolism allows reactive sciences to be known.

Science old language stated a deceased human went to hell. About the radiation effects a non oxygenated cell in the sciences knew about. Medical.

Stopped using that quote when science stopped misquoting male and female terms to non sexual reactions in nuclear and alchemical science.

Actually.

 

[Tiberius]

That is certainly not what I was saying. We will be all of who were were at the moment we departed out of this world -- the sum total of our personality -- and then in heaven we will continue to progress and become more than we ever were here. I cannot say exactly how we will progress, as the afterlife remains a mystery of God.

“Know thou that every hearing ear, if kept pure and undefiled, must, at all times and from every direction, hearken to the voice that uttereth these holy words: “Verily, we are God’s, and to Him shall we return.” The mysteries of man’s physical death and of his return have not been divulged, and still remain unread.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 345

And what about those people who suffer mental decline in their later years? Will they be in Heaven as they were the moment they departed this world? Why should they be forced to spend eternity like that?

And if the afterlife is a complete mystery as you claim, how can you be able to claim to know even a single thing about it?

 

[Tiberius]

Ie. K was once the symbol for a constant.

Was changed to a C by human choice.

Making it K in the first place was also a human choice. And the constant C is used to refer to the speed of light. There are some specific constants that use different symbols.

 

[rational experiences]

Making it K in the first place was also a human choice. And the constant C is used to refer to the speed of light. There are some specific constants that use different symbols.

You said a human made it. Just a symbol actually. Natural owns all causes.

Science builds a machine. Just a machine no volition.

God earth O reactive.
Body human interactive changes.

Machine owned no condition except built where a human then puts into machine what he wants changed.

Cause effect law.....living naturally on his false claim another dimension. Just natural. He becomes awAre of natural changed.

Consciousness notified change one state another changed was what he learnt. How false information was invented.

 

[Tiberius]

You said a human made it. Just a symbol actually. Natural owns all causes.

Science builds a machine. Just a machine no volition.

God earth O reactive.
Body human interactive changes.

Machine owned no condition except built where a human then puts into machine what he wants changed.

Cause effect law.....living naturally on his false claim another dimension. Just natural. He becomes awAre of natural changed.

Consciousness notified change one state another changed was what he learnt. How false information was invented.

I can't decipher this gobbledygook.

 

[rational experiences]

I can't decipher this gobbledygook.

Because it's not your word man science code.

Natural advice no science. The constant gases burning is not owned by the letter C.

What you ignore is a status that scientists did not create creation. Yet infer speaking words is discussing why creation exists as if explanations explained it.

You live on a created stone body. Which isn't owner of any beginning space thesis.

You live as a huma inside gas wAter atmosphere also not in any beginning thesis.

Your thesis pretends not natural bodies don't exist.

Irrational human thinking. Gobbledygook.

Human science is a practice. Machine and reaction.

Science human expressed then looked back referencing what changes human science caused.

One of the changes human death.

We already own natural human death in our future.

You ignore in science that if you are a scientist aged 50 years old. In 50 years probability of death about 50 years into future.

You don't factor the future in science. Natural death.

Today 50 is just 50 as a self.

If you claim life back to 0 you won't ever exist. As sperm and ovary in a body life continuance is not posed as relative in science counting self human presence first. As age.

As each human is just one self.

Conscious teaching is conscious teaching about one self a human.

Any self destructive human today is one self. I would teach if only your parents never had sex involving the evil human destruction scientists caused. By being life present.

Consciously.

Why humans said sex was an evil choice in life when harmed by another human.

 

[Trailblazer]

And what about those people who suffer mental decline in their later years? Will they be in Heaven as they were the moment they departed this world? Why should they be forced to spend eternity like that?

No, those people will be restored to their former selves, so they will be as they were before they declined. The reason is because it is not the brain and mind that continue to exist in the next life, it is the soul, and the soul remains unaffected by any infirmities of the body or brain. This requires an explanation which is below.

Every human being has a soul. The soul is what animates the brain and allows the brain to function, but the soul has to work through the brain while we are live in a physical body in order for us to be able to think intelligently.

Those who have brain dysfunctions still have a soul but the soul is hindered from fully expressing itself because the brain damage interferes with the soul’s functioning. So in the case of Alzheimer’s disease we cannot see the personality of the person express itself, but it is still there, since the soul is the person himself, thus the personality. When that person dies and his soul is freed from the physical body, he will no longer be affected by that brain damage since he will no longer have a brain to hinder the soul from functioning, so the soul will be free to express itself and the personality will be seen.

If someone did not believe there was a soul, they might think that an Alzheimer’s patient had no personality, but the Baha’i belief is that the soul is hidden as if under a bushel unable to express itself, because of the brain disease which interposes itself in between the soul and the body.

Your soul is responsible for consciousness, but while you are alive in a body, your soul works through the brain. The soul communicates its desires through the brain to the physical body, which thereby expresses itself in various ways. The soul is responsible for the mind, senses and emotions as well as physical sensations, but these are expressed through the body. When the brain is damaged hindrances interpose themselves between the soul and the body and cause physical illness. The body is affected but the soul remains unaffected.

The soul is like the light of the lamp. An external object may interfere with its brightness, but the light itself continues to shine. Or think about the soul as the sun above the clouds. The clouds are simply preventing us from seeing the sunshine, but the sun is shining just as brightly nevertheless.

Every illness afflicting the body of man is an impediment that prevents the soul from manifesting its inherent might and power. When the soul leaves the body, however, it will be unaffected by any bodily ailments and it will be able to fully manifest its power.

“Know thou that the soul of man is exalted above, and is independent of all infirmities of body or mind. That a sick person showeth signs of weakness is due to the hindrances that interpose themselves between his soul and his body, for the soul itself remaineth unaffected by any bodily ailments.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 153-154

The entire passage is on this link: Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, LXXX

And if the afterlife is a complete mystery as you claim, how can you be able to claim to know even a single thing about it?

The afterlife is not a complete mystery since Baha'u'llah revealed quite a bit about what happens to the soul in the afterlife. What we don't know are these things you have been asking, like exactly what we will remember from this life and how we progress in the afterlife if we have no free will. We know we will have a form of some kind that the soul will work through, just as we have a physical body in this world, but we don't know exactly what that form will be like. We also know there will be nothing physical in the afterlife, and that is why the Baha'is call the afterlife the spiritual world. The reason there will be no more pain and no more sorrow in heaven is because there will be nothing physical to cause pain and sorrow. There will be no more illness, no more accidents and injuries, and no more fear of death, because you will already be dead!

 

[Tiberius]

Because it's not your word man science code.

Natural advice no science. The constant gases burning is not owned by the letter C.

What you ignore is a status that scientists did not create creation. Yet infer speaking words is discussing why creation exists as if explanations explained it.

You live on a created stone body. Which isn't owner of any beginning space thesis.

You live as a huma inside gas wAter atmosphere also not in any beginning thesis.

Your thesis pretends not natural bodies don't exist.

Irrational human thinking. Gobbledygook.

Human science is a practice. Machine and reaction.

Science human expressed then looked back referencing what changes human science caused.

One of the changes human death.

We already own natural human death in our future.

You ignore in science that if you are a scientist aged 50 years old. In 50 years probability of death about 50 years into future.

You don't factor the future in science. Natural death.

Today 50 is just 50 as a self.

If you claim life back to 0 you won't ever exist. As sperm and ovary in a body life continuance is not posed as relative in science counting self human presence first. As age.

As each human is just one self.

Conscious teaching is conscious teaching about one self a human.

Any self destructive human today is one self. I would teach if only your parents never had sex involving the evil human destruction scientists caused. By being life present.

Consciously.

Why humans said sex was an evil choice in life when harmed by another human.

What's the point in posting then if no one can understand you anyway?

 

[Tiberius]

No, those people will be restored to their former selves, so they will be as they were before they declined. The reason is because it is not the brain and mind that continue to exist in the next life, it is the soul, and the soul remains unaffected by any infirmities of the body or brain. This requires an explanation which is below.

Every human being has a soul. The soul is what animates the brain and allows the brain to function, but the soul has to work through the brain while we are live in a physical body in order for us to be able to think intelligently.

Those who have brain dysfunctions still have a soul but the soul is hindered from fully expressing itself because the brain damage interferes with the soul’s functioning. So in the case of Alzheimer’s disease we cannot see the personality of the person express itself, but it is still there, since the soul is the person himself, thus the personality. When that person dies and his soul is freed from the physical body, he will no longer be affected by that brain damage since he will no longer have a brain to hinder the soul from functioning, so the soul will be free to express itself and the personality will be seen.

If someone did not believe there was a soul, they might think that an Alzheimer’s patient had no personality, but the Baha’i belief is that the soul is hidden as if under a bushel unable to express itself, because of the brain disease which interposes itself in between the soul and the body.

Your soul is responsible for consciousness, but while you are alive in a body, your soul works through the brain. The soul communicates its desires through the brain to the physical body, which thereby expresses itself in various ways. The soul is responsible for the mind, senses and emotions as well as physical sensations, but these are expressed through the body. When the brain is damaged hindrances interpose themselves between the soul and the body and cause physical illness. The body is affected but the soul remains unaffected.

The soul is like the light of the lamp. An external object may interfere with its brightness, but the light itself continues to shine. Or think about the soul as the sun above the clouds. The clouds are simply preventing us from seeing the sunshine, but the sun is shining just as brightly nevertheless.

Every illness afflicting the body of man is an impediment that prevents the soul from manifesting its inherent might and power. When the soul leaves the body, however, it will be unaffected by any bodily ailments and it will be able to fully manifest its power.


“Know thou that the soul of man is exalted above, and is independent of all infirmities of body or mind. That a sick person showeth signs of weakness is due to the hindrances that interpose themselves between his soul and his body, for the soul itself remaineth unaffected by any bodily ailments.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 153-154

The entire passage is on this link: Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, LXXX

So your statement that people in Heaven would be "who we were at the moment we departed out of this world" was wrong then?

The afterlife is not a complete mystery since Baha'u'llah revealed quite a bit about what happens to the soul in the afterlife. What we don't know are these things you have been asking, like exactly what we will remember from this life and how we progress in the afterlife if we have no free will. We know we will have a form of some kind that the soul will work through, just as we have a physical body in this world, but we don't know exactly what that form will be like. We also know there will be nothing physical in the afterlife, and that is why the Baha'is call the afterlife the spiritual world. The reason there will be no more pain and no more sorrow in heaven is because there will be nothing physical to cause pain and sorrow.

I'm not surprised at all that your religion is unable to answer the actual important questions about it. No religion is able to, in my experience. That's just one of many things that indicates to me that it's all made up.

 

[Trailblazer]

So your statement that people in Heaven would be "who we were at the moment we departed out of this world" was wrong then?

No, it was not wrong, you just did not understand my explanation of the body and the soul and how they function together to make you who you are. If you do not understand what I explained feel free to ask.

I'm not surprised at all that your religion is unable to answer the actual important questions about it. No religion is able to, in my experience. That's just one of many things that indicates to me that it's all made up.

No religion knows everything about the afterlife because it has never been fully revealed by God to His Messengers, but the Bahai Faith has more information about the afterlife than any other religion. If you use logic you will understand why it cannot be described; as I told you before the spiritual world is so much different from this world that there are no words that could describe it. Can you explain what this world will me like to a baby that is still in the womb?

 

[Tiberius]

No, it was not wrong, you just did not understand my explanation of the body and the soul and how they function together to make you who you are. If you do not understand what I explained feel free to ask.

Given that it's clear what I have apparently misunderstood, I think you would already know what I would ask. So why not just answer it?

No religion knows everything about the afterlife because it has never been fully revealed by God to His Messengers, but the Bahai Faith has more information about the afterlife than any other religion. If you use logic you will understand why it cannot be described; as I told you before the spiritual world is so much different from this world that there are no words that could describe it. Can you explain what this world will me like to a baby that is still in the womb?

Unfortunately, that's exactly the same thing we'd expect if the afterlife was something invented by people and doesn't really exist.

 

[Trailblazer]

Given that it's clear what I have apparently misunderstood, I think you would already know what I would ask. So why not just answer it?

No, I don't know what you would ask because I don't know what you did not understand.

People in Heaven will be "who they were at the moment they departed out of this world" but their physical body will not go to Heaven so they won't carry any infirmities of the physical body that they had when they were alive in their physical body.
The soul will continue to exist and take on a spiritual body and they will start in a whole new path.
Alzheimer's is a brain disease but since they won't have a brain anymore they will not take that disease with them.

Unfortunately, that's exactly the same thing we'd expect if the afterlife was something invented by people and doesn't really exist.

That is what YOU would expect but it is not what people would expect if they understood what I explained.

Just because we cannot understand what the afterlife is like (since it is so different from this life) does not mean the afterlife does not exist. A baby in the womb cannot understand what this life will be like, yet this life exists.

Just because God did not reveal the nature of the afterlife that does not mean it doesn't exist.
God chose not to reveal what it will be like for a good reason, because those who are going to Heaven would kill themselves since they would not want to live one more minute on earth.

“The nature of the soul after death can never be described, nor is it meet and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men...... The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother.” Gleanings, pp. 156-157

“As to those that have tasted of the fruit of man’s earthly existence, which is the recognition of the one true God, exalted be His glory, their life hereafter is such as We are unable to describe. The knowledge thereof is with God, alone, the Lord of all worlds.” Gleanings, pp. 345-346

 

[sojourner]

Hi. I deleted my last post regarding this subject because the details were too raw and personal, and while I appreciated the responses, they digressed from the questions.

So, simply, my questions are 1.) If a friend or family member dies and you know they weren't saved, do you still love them and cherish the memories, or do you try to bury it and let go? After all, once in heaven you'll forget anyway. Also, how do you deal with the thought of them suffering in eternal torment even though you know that they deserve it?

1) Everyone will be saved.
2) Loved ones are always cherished.
3) Humanity is inherently one with God and with each other.
4) No one deserves torment, temporal or otherwise.

Your post is moot.

 

[cataway]

Hi. I deleted my last post regarding this subject because the details were too raw and personal, and while I appreciated the responses, they digressed from the questions.

So, simply, my questions are 1.) If a friend or family member dies and you know they weren't saved, do you still love them and cherish the memories, or do you try to bury it and let go? After all, once in heaven you'll forget anyway. Also, how do you deal with the thought of them suffering in eternal torment even though you know that they deserve it?

how do you know they won't be saved from death ?

 

[cataway]

1) Everyone will be saved.
2) Loved ones are always cherished.
3) Humanity is inherently one with God and with each other.
4) No one deserves torment, temporal or otherwise.

Your post is moot.

knowing you will die ,is that not torment?

 

[sojourner]

knowing you will die ,is that not torment?

No. Why should it be? Death is a dream from which we awaken.