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Loving God = Eternal Torture?

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
Your last sentence is true

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

There's no way to know that since any claim to inspiration/revelation is 100% hearsay. And faith based on 100% hearsay is !00% blind faith.

I have no problem believing this, & when you have met God & have the Holy Spirit in you, can believe it fully. because his Spirit bares witness with our Spirit that we are his:

I could agree that our self-awareness is holy, if by holy you mean infinitely precious. But if holy means divinely imparted, then we're back to the problem of it being hearsay. Even if you did experience some connection with the divine, there's no possible way for you to communicate it to me--which leaves me with incredulity, and you, in any case, without free will.

Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

But we don't even know if there is a God. We are either completely clueless, or force ourselves to accept hearsay evidence, which would be a lie.
 

Jbministries

New Member
The problem with this line of thinking isn't that God is loving or that his children will indeed suffer eternal torment (because there is many verse references that support those beliefs) and you are thinking that they contradict is normal so I understand where you are coming from. The problem with your thinking, however is that it is God himself who is punishing and putting his children through eternal torment. God cast down Lucifer because of his pride and ever since there has been a constant war in the heavens and earth for humans. The Bible ultimately says God wins of course and will reside in a new earth with his followers. The war however is still being cast because Jesus hasn't come down and ended the war and claimed his people. Humans, individually decide our fate, whether choosing to follow God or Satan and there is no in-between. Those that choose God will be in heaven for eternity and those that choose Satan, SATAN HIMSELF will take down with him to eternal torment. Satan is the one responsible for sin and the one responsible for eternal torment.
Now you might say "well God has the power to save them if he wanted to, so he is culpable to some degree. But he can't. He can't dwell with imperfection. He can't coexist with sin. Those that follow God are cleansed of their sins through Jesus sacrifice, thus made perfect and without sin. But those who don't follow God, are left to the judgment of sin. That is the simple truth of it. God is perfection. Satan is sin.
 
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Jesus in some sources was known to have talked about reincarnation and Paul, one of the less trust worthy apostles probably made up the idea of eternal torture as a way to cull people to join Christianity. A loving God wouldn't torture or allow bad people to torture others.

Also evil people fight other evil people all the time even in the real world. Because they only work for themselves, and are selfish and are willing to betray one another. Evil people can't work together and only have minions because they are coerced or manipulated to do so, so the idea of the devil punishing bad people wouldn't be nonsense. The Devil would just torture anyone whether they are good or bad. Since bad people are sent to Hell as opposed to Heaven because if they aren't good enough to enter heaven, where would they go? They are sent to hell according to the bible where they are tortured but maybe God doesn't want them to be tortureds specifically, it might be because he just wants them in that area far away from Heaven and the devil is there and just happens to like torturing others, not because the devil likes to torture bad people but just likes to torture in general whether they are good or bad.


What? Paul says virtually nothing about punishment at all. The only time he even uses the term hell its hades and he says it will be defeated. Oh death where is thy sting, oh grave, (hades,hell) where is thy victory.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
God is a consuming fire. If a person who hated God was in the presence of God............................

Who would be so silly to hate God? Atheists?

I presume you do not believe in the tooth faity. Do you hate her?

Ciao

- viole
 

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
God is a consuming fire. If a person who hated God was in the presence of God............................

This verse does not have anything to do with those that hate God, but those that do not worship him exclusively.

Note how God's being a consuming fire is linked to the services with fear and awe that we offer to God.

"Therefore, seeing that we are to receive a Kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us continue to receive undeserved kindness, through which we may acceptably offer to God sacred service with godly fear and awe. For our God is a consuming fire." - Heb 12:28,29

But what does it mean? Paul is referencing De 4:24

"Be careful that you do not forget the covenant of Jehovah your God that he made with you, and do not make for yourselves a carved image, the form of anything forbidden to you by Jehovah your God. For Jehovah your God is a consuming fire, a God who requires exclusive devotion." - De 4:23,24

This shows that the God of the Bible does not allow for interfaith. This 'consuming fire' is a form of jealousy, as a husband would have towards his wife who was stepping out on him.
 

ljgregorysr

Born Again Child of The True & Living God
There's no way to know that since any claim to inspiration/revelation is 100% hearsay. And faith based on 100% hearsay is !00% blind faith.

Yes on the Faith, but if you have truly been born again, or saved as we Baptists say it, you have something that you can feel from the inner( Spiritual) man that let's you know it is real. It is blind faith, but very real to me. If I didn't have something I could feel to let me know that it is a real thing, I suppose I would also have a hard time believing in it as well.
It's sort of like the wind, you can feel it blow against you, but you can't see it.




I could agree that our self-awareness is holy, if by holy you mean infinitely precious. But if holy means divinely imparted, then we're back to the problem of it being hearsay. Even if you did experience some connection with the divine, there's no possible way for you to communicate it to me--which leaves me with incredulity, and you, in any case, without free will.


Yes, on the Divinely Imparted. One that has never been saved by God's saving Grace cannot ever fully understand. The only way we can communicate it to our fellow man is by our testimony of it actually happening to us. It truly is a free will thing, you have the option to believe or not. Even The Word of God (Bible) is a dead letter till the Holy Spirit takes it & reproves you, brings in conviction to your heart(inner man).


But we don't even know if there is a God. We are either completely clueless, or force ourselves to accept hearsay evidence, which would be a lie.

Ps 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
This is good enough for me, but there is more for a person to see God's Eternal Plan if they really, earnestly, seek it.
 

nazz

Doubting Thomas
So, I've been an ex-Christian for about 4 years now, and one thing still irks me even to this day. In evangelical Christianity (in which I was raised...and I suppose most denominations of Christianity in general,) it is believed that God is supposedly love (1 John 4:8), yet at the same time, it is believed that God tortures people for eternity in hell. It would be one thing if it were temporary and corrective, but it isn't... it is eternal. What purpose does an eternal hell serve, exactly? Can someone who is willing to torture his own "children" for eternity be seen as "loving?" That just sort of sounds like an episode of Criminal Minds. Even if God cannot "allow sin into heaven," why not just annihilate the person, both body and soul? Why is torture necessary?
Is this the reason you are an ex-Christian?
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
The Bible teaches eternal punishment but not eternal torture. I would think a reading of Luke 16 would answer everyone's questions.

Do you have 2nd Thessalonians 1:9 in mind? _______ There it equates punishment with: everlasting destruction.
Doesn't Psalm 92:7 mentions the wicked being annihilated as in being destroyed forever ?________

When you say Luke 16 I am thinking you are referring to Jesus' parable or illustration and Not a real happening ?______
Jesus taught ' only sleep in death ' - please see John 11 vs 11-14
By age 12 Jesus was already well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures.
So, Jesus would have learned that sleeping condition of the dead from those Scriptures such as:
- Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 6:5; 13:3; 115 :17; 146:4; Daniel 12:2,13 and Job 14:12 -15.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
So, I've been an ex-Christian for about 4 years now, and one thing still irks me even to this day. In evangelical Christianity (in which I was raised...and I suppose most denominations of Christianity in general,) it is believed that God is supposedly love (1 John 4:8), yet at the same time, it is believed that God tortures people for eternity in hell. It would be one thing if it were temporary and corrective, but it isn't... it is eternal. What purpose does an eternal hell serve, exactly? Can someone who is willing to torture his own "children" for eternity be seen as "loving?" That just sort of sounds like an episode of Criminal Minds. Even if God cannot "allow sin into heaven," why not just annihilate the person, both body and soul? Why is torture necessary?

Torture is Not necessary. The wicked will be ' destroyed forever ' according to Psalm 92:7
Even Satan will be destroyed by Jesus according to Hebrews 2:14 B.

Biblical hell is Not eternal according to Revelation 20 vs 13,14.
Please notice that everyone in the Bible's hell is ' delivered up ' meaning resurrected out of hell.
Then, emptied-out hell is cast vacant into a symbolic ' second death ' for vacated hell.

Apparently you have been taught some sort of permanent religious-myth hell by false religious teachers.
If biblical hell was eternal then Jesus would still be in hell because Jesus went to hell the day Jesus died - Acts 2:27,31,32; Psalm 16:10
Jesus simply went to the temporary grave until God resurrected Jesus out of biblical hell or the grave - Acts 3:15; 13:30,37
Jesus now has the keys to unlock hell for mankind - Revelation 1:18 - and during Jesus' coming 1000-year kingdom rule over earth our last enemy ' death ' will be brought to nothing - 1st Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8
 

jtartar

Well-Known Member
So, I've been an ex-Christian for about 4 years now, and one thing still irks me even to this day. In evangelical Christianity (in which I was raised...and I suppose most denominations of Christianity in general,) it is believed that God is supposedly love (1 John 4:8), yet at the same time, it is believed that God tortures people for eternity in hell. It would be one thing if it were temporary and corrective, but it isn't... it is eternal. What purpose does an eternal hell serve, exactly? Can someone who is willing to torture his own "children" for eternity be seen as "loving?" That just sort of sounds like an episode of Criminal Minds. Even if God cannot "allow sin into heaven," why not just annihilate the person, both body and soul? Why is torture necessary?

Triumphant_loser,
You are not a loser!!! God is love, exactly as He says He is. God is not angry with you for asking such an important question. Back in the times of the Israelites some Gentiles and some Israelites who had fallen away from God had burned their children in fires, to false Gods. God stated that such things had never even come up into His heart, Jere 7:30,31. You only need a small lesson, Theodicy!! Not Theomachy!!
The truthful answer is just as you seem to believe it should be. God does NOT punish or torture ANYONE forever!!!
The word hell is a corruption of the Greek word Hades, and only means the common grave of mankind, in many places in some Bibles. The problem came about by the KJV using the same word Hell for several other words that did not mean the same thing, as Gehenna, and Lake of Fire, Tartarus, and just the grave of all mankind. When Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees, he sometime warned them of Gehenna, this was a different place than just the common, otherwise if would not have been a significant warning if they were all going there, Matt 5:22,30,32, 18:9, 23:33. Jesus used the term Gehennabecause it was a garbage dump in the first century, and there was a fire going all the time in it, to burn up trash,and garbage, and brimstone was thrown to make the fire hotter. So Jesus used this symbol to represent The Lake of Fire. The difference between Gehenna and Hades, there is never a resurrection from Gehenna, the reason Jesus warned the Jews.
One thing written in the scriptures proves beyond a doubt that Hades or Hell is not a place of torment or punishment is: Jesus was in Hades for parts of three days. God certainly would not have allowed His beloved son go to a place of torture, torment, or punishment, Acts 2:27,31.
The Bible says that all who are not in the book of life are going to The Lake of Fire, but notice it is the SECOND DEATH, and is a symbol for anything going there will never be seen again, whether flesh and blood or even Hades, Rev 20:13-15.
So you see God is a loving God, the problem was not with a god but with the men who translated the Holy Scriptures, they wanted to frighten people into obeying the scriptures.
IMV, it's your perspective that is wrong.

I have a nephew who was battling alcoholism. My house was open. A spare room was used. My help was there to help him through his issues.

He decided to leave and continue his lifestyle.

It would be wrong for you to accuse me of torturing my nephew. It would be wrong to accuse me of making him go through hell. It was his decision. The torture is of his own making.

There are those who believe that the body and soul will be annihilated. I'm not all knowing and I don't know all the particulars. I just keep the door open for those who don't want to be tortured anymore.
 

Pedestrian

New Member
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Each of our sins are grievous before God. He did not create us to lie, steal, murder and commit adultery. Hell would only be unjust if it wasn't so simple to be saved. Anyone can freely chose to believe.

If you take on the Lord Jesus as your saviour, he will wash away all your sins and you will be clean and forever saved from Hell. Not because you deserved it, but because he showed his love and gave his life on the cross. He paid the price for our sins with his precious blood and he gives the opportunity to be saved for every person living today.

Galatians 3:13-14
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Ephesians 2:4-9
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
" Free will ceases to exist. Some Christians explain the presence of suffering and evil here on earth as God’s way of creating creatures who would love him freely—by giving them the option to reject him. But that is exactly the opposite condition they predict in Heaven. In Heaven there is no sin, no option to sin, and so, by Christianity’s own definition, no free will. (Some skeptics point out that “love me or I’ll torture you forever” doesn’t exactly create the conditions for genuine love either. Why, they ask, would a god who wants love to be freely given threaten us with hell, even if it existed? But that is a different article.) Philosophers and neuroscientists debate whether free will is real or merely and adaptive illusion. Either way, in the Bible’s version of Heaven, even the illusion vanishes."
 

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
" Free will ceases to exist. Some Christians explain the presence of suffering and evil here on earth as God’s way of creating creatures who would love him freely—by giving them the option to reject him. But that is exactly the opposite condition they predict in Heaven. In Heaven there is no sin, no option to sin, and so, by Christianity’s own definition, no free will. (Some skeptics point out that “love me or I’ll torture you forever” doesn’t exactly create the conditions for genuine love either. Why, they ask, would a god who wants love to be freely given threaten us with hell, even if it existed? But that is a different article.) Philosophers and neuroscientists debate whether free will is real or merely and adaptive illusion. Either way, in the Bible’s version of Heaven, even the illusion vanishes."

If the angels did not have free will then there would be no Satan nor would there be any other rebel angels.

"And the angels who did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place, he has reserved with eternal bonds in dense darkness for the judgement of the great day." - Jude 6

Until Satan and his demons were confined to the earth, they had polluted the heavens with their attitudes much as they continue to do so here. (Job 1:9-12; 2:1-7; Re 12:7-12)

It seems that 'no sin' and 'free will' can coexist, for many other angels are still choosing to not rebel. They, like us, can choose to be loyal or disloyal.
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
If the angels did not have free will then there would be no Satan nor would there be any other rebel angels.

"And the angels who did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place, he has reserved with eternal bonds in dense darkness for the judgement of the great day." - Jude 6

Until Satan and his demons were confined to the earth, they had polluted the heavens with their attitudes much as they continue to do so here. (Job 1:9-12; 2:1-7; Re 12:7-12)

It seems that 'no sin' and 'free will' can coexist, for many other angels are still choosing to not rebel. They, like us, can choose to be loyal or disloyal.

So in heaven there is an option to sin?
 

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
So in heaven there is an option to sin?

the option yes. But now that the heavens are cleansed, those loyal angels no longer have to deal with the rebellious attitudes in their day to day activities like we do. It isn't that these loyal ones can't become disloyal, but they have chosen not to.

The difference is that they do not have a weakness that makes sin inevitable. But then neither did Adam, Eve, nor Jesus. What makes us imperfect is that inherent weakness.
 
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