Loving God = Eternal Torture?

[ThePainefulTruth]

Ps 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
This is good enough for me, but there is more for a person to see God's Eternal Plan if they really, earnestly, seek it.

"If it's good enough for Moses"...."gimme that old time religion"? I too believe (as opposed to knowing) that God created the natural, rational universe to spawn us with full self-awareness which led to our moral free will. As such, God must have some idea in mind as a purpose for us here. What could that be? Turn off our God given(?) reason and resort to complete blind faith as promoted by any of a number of religions based 100% on hearsay; or worship God (whether It be conscious or not) by the pursuit of Truth....where Truth is knowledge, justice, love and beauty. Isn't Truth what all religions claim to dispense, no matter how much they contradict and contend with each other. Of all the temples, churches and monuments on Earth, I don't believe there's one dedicated to the pursuit of Truth

 

[truthofscripture]

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Each of our sins are grievous before God. He did not create us to lie, steal, murder and commit adultery. Hell would only be unjust if it wasn't so simple to be saved. Anyone can freely chose to believe.

If you take on the Lord Jesus as your saviour, he will wash away all your sins and you will be clean and forever saved from Hell. Not because you deserved it, but because he showed his love and gave his life on the cross. He paid the price for our sins with his precious blood and he gives the opportunity to be saved for every person living today.

Galatians 3:13-14
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Ephesians 2:4-9
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Yep. However, faith without works is dead.

 

[weirdfish0]

For once I agree with @Jayhawker Soule. I need to see these quotes of Jesus promoting reincarnation/buddhism.

You can find such quotes for example in the apocryphal Gospel according to Mary Magdalene. Unfortunately the whole is incomplete, however the lines before and after this fragment remained. It says clearly : ''The Teacher answered:...'' and I can't quote because I only have access to polish version. If you ever come across it, these are lines 4-8 and 24-26 of page 7, 1-3 page 8, 18-19 page 16. @Jayhawker Soule should be favorable to it, because it also says ''not to add any additional laws to the ones already stated in Torah' (line 3, page 9)'. EDIT2: the gospel in english: The Gospel of Mary Magdalene
You can question the credibility of the apocrypha, but it was the church who eventually established the official content of the Bible according to its own interests.
Ecclesiastes also sounds sometimes ''Buddhist'' (especially the aspect of reincarnation).


edit. And as far as the concept of hell, I've heard that it became popular in the Middle Ages when the religion had to be adapted to the majority of population who couldn't read and who couldn't attend the service which was being held in Latin. The clergy had to present them the basic concepts of catholic faith so that they would 1) understand better, 2) become fearful, 3) become obedient.

 

[Kenny]

" Free will ceases to exist. Some Christians explain the presence of suffering and evil here on earth as God’s way of creating creatures who would love him freely—by giving them the option to reject him. But that is exactly the opposite condition they predict in Heaven. In Heaven there is no sin, no option to sin, and so, by Christianity’s own definition, no free will.

Not really.

I have made my decision to love my wife. It doesn't matter where I stand, with options or no options, my decision has been made. The fact that I made my decision here on the earth is sufficient to hold me even when there are no other options.

Additionally, you have an erroneous theological position if you think that we stay "in Heaven" forever. The saints return back to earth and, for that matter, the Heavenly Jerusalem does so also.

 

[truthofscripture]

Not really.

I have made my decision to love my wife. It doesn't matter where I stand, with options or no options, my decision has been made. The fact that I made my decision here on the earth is sufficient to hold me even when there are no other options.

Additionally, you have an erroneous theological position if you think that we stay "in Heaven" forever. The saints return back to earth and, for that matter, the Heavenly Jerusalem does so also.

I think you both need to study the scriptures. "We" don't go to heaven ever, only the annointed. Saint means "holy one". No holy ones return to Earth, and the "new Jerusalem" doesn't come to Earth.

 

[Domenic]

"If it's good enough for Moses"...."gimme that old time religion"? I too believe (as opposed to knowing) that God created the natural, rational universe to spawn us with full self-awareness which led to our moral free will. As such, God must have some idea in mind as a purpose for us here. What could that be? Turn off our God given(?) reason and resort to complete blind faith as promoted by any of a number of religions based 100% on hearsay; or worship God (whether It be conscious or not) by the pursuit of Truth....where Truth is knowledge, justice, love and beauty. Isn't Truth what all religions claim to dispense, no matter how much they contradict and contend with each other. Of all the temples, churches and monuments on Earth, I don't believe there's one dedicated to the pursuit of Truth

God keeps no secret from man. Genesis 2:15. He created man to care for the earth.( for Gods pleasure.) We are the care takers of the earth. All of Gods creations are to serve him. it's a good job. No taxes, no sickness, ageing, or death. free food, a beautiful place to live. Family, kids...all the good stuff. Those who don't want the job don't have to take it. God will just un-create them. He won't waste those he un-creates. He says he will just let them go back to dust. No suffering. They won't even know they were here. One thing about this care taker job, the terms of service are not negotiable. He tell us what the rules are before we sign the life time contract.
He gives us the free will to sign, or not sign.

 

[Kenny]

I think you both need to study the scriptures. "We" don't go to heaven ever, only the annointed. Saint means "holy one". No holy ones return to Earth, and the "new Jerusalem" doesn't come to Earth.

That is a matter of opinion.

Jude 14And Enoch also, the seventh fromAdam, prophesied of these, saying , Behold , the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

1 Thes 3:13To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

And, if I am not mistaken, there are even Jews who expect a Heavenly New Jerusalem that will come.

 

[truthofscripture]

That is a matter of opinion.

Jude 14And Enoch also, the seventh fromAdam, prophesied of these, saying , Behold , the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

1 Thes 3:13To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

And, if I am not mistaken, there are even Jews who expect a Heavenly New Jerusalem that will come.

It appears that you don't understand what figures of speech are. Metaphors. John was seeing a VISION, not being told word for word what to write.

 

[Opalsun]

Well it didn't really help but ok. Jesus has talked of reincarnation but really it was Paul who did most of the proselytizing and wanting everyone to be Christian. Even Judaism has spoken of reincarnation at one point as well.

Paul gets a lot of flack, and not to beat the proverbial drum, but he's not as bad as his context, and he was nowhere near the hell raiser John was. Really, almost not at all. His views on women, gays, Jews, all taken largely out of context, but Paul was such a complex thinker, he is not easy to understand. He lived in a time of women not being allowed to be trained in Torah, of rampant homosexual prostitution and rape and of a strong divide between Jew & Gentile. Good point on Jesus. In short, there was no Greek word for eternal until Bishop Tertullian redefined the word aionos.

 

[Kenny]

It appears that you don't understand what figures of speech are. Metaphors. John was seeing a VISION, not being told word for word what to write.

Apparently you can't differentiate when it is a figure of speech and when it isn't.

13. your hearts--which are naturally the spring and seat of unholiness.
before God, even our Father--rather, "before Him who is at once God and our Father." Before not merely men, but Him who will not be deceived by the mere show of holiness, that is, may your holiness be such as will stand His searching scrutiny.
coming--Greek, "presence," or "arrival."
with all his saints--including both the holy angels and the holy elect of men ( 1 Thessalonians 4:14 , Daniel 7:10 , Zechariah 14:5 , Matthew 25:31 , 2 Thessalonians 1:7 ). The saints are "His" ( Acts 9:13 ). We must have "holiness" if we are to be numbered with His holy ones or "saints." On "unblameable," compare Revelation 14:5 . This verse (compare 1 Thessalonians 3:12 ) shows that "love" is the spring of true "holiness" ( Matthew 5:44-48 , Romans 13:10 , Colossians 3:14 ). God is He who really "stablishes"; Timothy and other ministers are but instruments ( 1 Thessalonians 3:2 ) in "stablishing."

 

[OneThatGotAway]

I don't see the big deal of why we should not torment the condemn to the lake of fire for eternity.
Who wants evil to remain on earth for eternity?

 

[Opalsun]

How can we condemn Hitler or Stalin when we make God an eternal Hitler. This God is reprehensible! If we started slow roasting Christians in chains for years, and told them all they needed to do is relinquish this despicable belief, they'd change really quick! And is it bad of me to say? No! Because that's what they want you to go through FOREVER!

Nope, sorry. Saying it's out of your god's hands doesn't work when your god is purported to be all-powerful. The system of paradise or hellfire was instituted by your god and the context of how our actions are treated exists entirely in that system. How can a deity be all-loving yet think it is moral, indeed necessary, to meet finite crimes with infinite punishment?

Whether criminals are caught and punished depends entirely upon action of those in pursuit of retribution or justice. Which means the eternal punishment of people for non-crimes such as 'unbelief' rests entirely on your god's shoulders.

So, I've been an ex-Christian for about 4 years now, and one thing still irks me even to this day. In evangelical Christianity (in which I was raised...and I suppose most denominations of Christianity in general,) it is believed that God is supposedly love (1 John 4:8), yet at the same time, it is believed that God tortures people for eternity in hell. It would be one thing if it were temporary and corrective, but it isn't... it is eternal. What purpose does an eternal hell serve, exactly? Can someone who is willing to torture his own "children" for eternity be seen as "loving?" That just sort of sounds like an episode of Criminal Minds. Even if God cannot "allow sin into heaven," why not just annihilate the person, both body and soul? Why is torture necessary?

So, I've been an ex-Christian for about 4 years now, and one thing still irks me even to this day. In evangelical Christianity (in which I was raised...and I suppose most denominations of Christianity in general,) it is believed that God is supposedly love (1 John 4:8), yet at the same time, it is believed that God tortures people for eternity in hell. It would be one thing if it were temporary and corrective, but it isn't... it is eternal. What purpose does an eternal hell serve, exactly? Can someone who is willing to torture his own "children" for eternity be seen as "loving?" That just sort of sounds like an episode of Criminal Minds. Even if God cannot "allow sin into heaven," why not just annihilate the person, both body and soul? Why is torture necessary?

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

He tell us what the rules are before we sign the life time contract.
He gives us the free will to sign, or not sign.

Yes, we inherently know good from evil since Adam and Eve (metaphorically). But we aren't just caretakers, we can choose to worship God by pursuing the Truth (knowledge, justice, love and beauty)--or we can corrupt ourselves with myths, falsehoods, lies, injustice, hatred and putrification of the soul--the opposite of Truth.

 

[Joshua Ray]

Isn't it entirely possible that the world as it is isn't how God would prefer it? God didn't want us to have knowledge of good vs evil. Furthermore, the final chapter of Revelation implies that salvation would be a share in the tree of life and the Holy City and the punishment for the wicked will be the plagues rather Heaven and Hell.

18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll. Revelation 22:18

If God were to punish with the plagues, one would have to recognize the parallels to the Old Testament and assume that the ones that will be punished will be the people that don't recognize God's Commandments. Instead they worship men, buildings, and books. Or practice adultery, murder, theft. They value items possessions etc. They take judgment from God and murder in his name. But their actions in doing so show a lack of faith in God. Those would have to be the crimes that God sees as the worst seeing as how they were condemned by the laws He gave to the children of Abraham.

 

[truthofscripture]

Paul gets a lot of flack, and not to beat the proverbial drum, but he's not as bad as his context, and he was nowhere near the hell raiser John was. Really, almost not at all. His views on women, gays, Jews, all taken largely out of context, but Paul was such a complex thinker, he is not easy to understand. He lived in a time of women not being allowed to be trained in Torah, of rampant homosexual prostitution and rape and of a strong divide between Jew & Gentile. Good point on Jesus. In short, there was no Greek word for eternal until Bishop Tertullian redefined the word aionos.

There is not one single word of reincarnation mentioned anywhere in the scriptures.

 

[Kolibri]

Isn't it entirely possible that the world as it is isn't how God would prefer it? God didn't want us to have knowledge of good vs evil. Furthermore, the final chapter of Revelation implies that salvation would be a share in the tree of life and the Holy City and the punishment for the wicked will be the plagues rather Heaven and Hell.

18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll. Revelation 22:18

If God were to punish with the plagues, one would have to recognize the parallels to the Old Testament and assume that the ones that will be punished will be the people that don't recognize God's Commandments. Instead they worship men, buildings, and books. Or practice adultery, murder, theft. They value items possessions etc. They take judgment from God and murder in his name. But their actions in doing so show a lack of faith in God. Those would have to be the crimes that God sees as the worst seeing as how they were condemned by the laws He gave to the children of Abraham.

The distresses were for a purpose - to motivate a change in those willing to change.

Roam the streets of Jerusalem.
Look around and take note.
Search her public squares to see
Whether you can find a man who acts with justice,
One who seeks to be faithful,
And I will forgive her.
Even if they say: "As surely as Jehovah is alive!"
They would still swear to what is false.
O Jehovah, do your eyes not look for faithfulness?
You struck them, but it made no impact on them. (Lit., "they did not become weak.")
You exterminated them, but they refused to accept discipline.
They made their faces harder than a rock,
And they refused to turn around.
- Jeremiah 5:1-3

There is no purpose to eternal torment but to sate the desire of a sadist. Instead the Bible says "God is love." (1 John 4:8)
Rather than putting the wicked into eternal misery, they are simply put out of the righteous ones' misery.
Let the irredeemable sleep forever, where they can be eventually forgotten.

For look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be called to mind, (or "remembered.")
Nor will they come up into the heart.
- Isaiah 65:17

 

[Me Myself]

IMV, it's your perspective that is wrong.

I have a nephew who was battling alcoholism. My house was open. A spare room was used. My help was there to help him through his issues.

He decided to leave and continue his lifestyle.

It would be wrong for you to accuse me of torturing my nephew. It would be wrong to accuse me of making him go through hell.

Did you create your nephew knowing full well before hand that he was going to be eternally in agony and wishing his own inexistence?... and then created him?

 

[Kenny]

Did you create your nephew knowing full well before hand that he was going to be eternally in agony and wishing his own inexistence?... and then created him?

Why do you think that he is going to be in eternal agony?

 

[Me Myself]

Why do you think that he is going to be in eternal agony?

I dont think anyone is ever gonna be in eternal agony. That´s the point.

If God created someone knowing fullwell s/he´d be in eternal agony, S7He d be being an "·$%&! for creation said someone. An unloving ·/&·$! at that.

So my point was that your example is not analogous, cause you are neither omniscient nor omnipotent, which are quite important factors in this setting.

 

[Kenny]

I dont think anyone is ever gonna be in eternal agony. That´s the point.

If God created someone knowing fullwell s/he´d be in eternal agony, S7He d be being an "·$%&! for creation said someone. An unloving ·/&·$! at that.

So my point was that your example is not analogous, cause you are neither omniscient nor omnipotent, which are quite important factors in this setting.

I disagree. I then could equally say that you are suggesting that God should have everyone on a puppet string with no free thought or free will. Or if you are having a child that is going to invent a medicine that will heal half a world but you are not going to accept the gift that He is offering you, I shouldn't let you be born and sacrifice half a world and half them continue in their disease.