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Loving God = Eternal Torture?

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
This will not harmonize with the rest of scripture as in the case of the rich man & Lazuarus, which is not a parable because given names are used:
Lu 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Lu 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Lu 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Lu 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
You are talking about a parable. You are also talking about a holding place that is contrasted with Abraham's bosom. NOT the lake of fire.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
The scriptures are extremely clear in saying that we do NOT have an immortal soul, so there isn't anything to send to hell, especially since the word hell means common grave of mankind, the same as Sheol and Hades mean common grave of mankind. Gehenna is symbolism for complete destruction. Hell is the grave.
Exactly. This is why God cut man off from the tree of life. He didn't want us having "an eternal soul" while being sent to the lake of fire. Satan will burn forever because he ate from the tree of life.
 
Truth be known, few are ABLE to discern the true meaning of God's inspired word, and therefore are unable to know who and what God is. God searches our hearts constantly looking for honest hearted people whom He can draw to Him. If one has that honest heart, God uses holy spirit to allow us to understand His written word, the Bible. Without it, the obfuscating efforts of Satan prevent us from knowing what the scriptures say/mean. It's pretty simple. If God made His inspired word so easy to understand that anyone could grasp it's meaning, His purposes wouldn't be able to be fulfilled. That's why. And He DOES exist. You exist. That should be proof enough.

Well, you just made my point. How do you know that God operates as you just described ? If I asked someone else, I am confident I would get a very different answer. Your description of God is not fact but rather your personal belief.

Also, it makes no sense that God would intentionally make few people able to,understand him yet punish them for not believing in him.

Mark 16:16. “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who disbelieves will be condemned.”

2 Thessalonians, 8-9:"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."

John 3:36 : “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

Luke 12:5: "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."

John 15:6 : "If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned."
 
The scriptures are extremely clear in saying that we do NOT have an immortal soul, so there isn't anything to send to hell, especially since the word hell means common grave of mankind, the same as Sheol and Hades mean common grave of mankind. Gehenna is symbolism for complete destruction. Hell is the grave.

If there isn't anything to send to hell does that mean there isn't anything to send to heaven ?
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Well, you just made my point. How do you know that God operates as you just described ? If I asked someone else, I am confident I would get a very different answer. Your description of God is not fact but rather your personal belief.

Also, it makes no sense that God would intentionally make few people able to,understand him yet punish them for not believing in him.

Mark 16:16. “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who disbelieves will be condemned.”

2 Thessalonians, 8-9:"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."

John 3:36 : “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

Luke 12:5: "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."

John 15:6 : "If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned."
It has nothing to do with personal belief. It is about turning to God and being a good person….in action. This is the premise of every parable of Jesus. The reason why most people believe that "faith" makes a person justified is because of Paul's epistles. Another reason is because the word "believe" found in the gospels is a poor translation from the greek word pisteou which is more accurately translated as OBEY/TRUST. This means that Jesus never said that salvation for humans was contingent of "believing in him", as almost all of Christianity claims.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
What is the evidence that hell or heaven actually exist other than people saying or writing that it is so ?
There is no evidence that you could measure scientifically. I personally don't believe individuals are currently in "heaven or hell". I believe dead humans are in sheol or "the grave" in some sort of holding position until the resurrection and judgement. I realize that Catholics have run wild with this concept and have used it to make money by allowing people to pay to get their dead loved ones out of "purgatory". Regardless of these abuses. The Hebrew text clearly points to a temporary holding place until the judgement.
 
This means that Jesus never said that salvation for humans was contingent of "believing in him", as almost all of Christianity claims.

Your claim is not consistent with the following passages;

Mark 16:16. “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who disbelieves will be condemned.”

2 Thessalonians, 8-9:"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."

John 3:36 : “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

Luke 12:5: "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."

John 15:6 : "If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned."
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Mark 16:16. “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who disbelieves will be condemned.”

Bad translation. As I said above. The word you have as "believes" should be translated as "obey/trust".

2 Thessalonians, 8-9:"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."

Paul was crazy. I don't regard his words at all. Nor did Paul know Jesus.

John 3:36 : “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

Same problem with the word "believeth"

Luke 12:5: "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."

Yes. God does have authority to destroy evil humans.

John 15:6 : "If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned."

Yes, abide in him means follows him and change your actions.
 
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Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
To further prove that "belief" has nothing to do with this judgement….consider the following text from John.

28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. John 5: 28-29

Remember, this book has been exploited as the premier gospel to evangelical christians because they believe that Paul's "faith alone" logic is found in Jesus' words. This is false and only exists because of a false translation as I have already shown. What is clear in this text as good people will be restored and evil people will be destroyed. Not about personal beliefs as much as ACTIONS/REPENTANCE.
 
Mark 16:16. “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who disbelieves will be condemned.”



So according to you, few people are able to know God. And according to the bible, and most christians, the penalty for not knowing God is eternal punishment. That paints a pretty bleak picture for most of humanity for simply not having the "correct" belief. It suggests that most of humanity is condemned by a God they are told they are supposed to love and worship. Can you understand why people may have doubts about the proposition put forth by christianity ?
 
To further prove that "belief" has nothing to do with this judgement….consider the following text from John.

28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. John 5: 28-29

Remember, this book has been exploited as the premier gospel to evangelical christians because they believe that Paul's "faith alone" logic is found in Jesus' words. This is false and only exists because of a false translation as I have already shown. What is clear in this text as good people will be restored and evil people will be destroyed. Not about personal beliefs as much as ACTIONS/REPENTANCE.

Personally, I don't believe in gods. But I find your interpretation more appropriate than the faith only interpretation. So, what a bizarre situation. Millions of "christians" believing one way and millions of others believing a different way about the most fundamental of issues. How could this happen ? If God really existed, why would he not set everyone straight rather than allow them to be easily led astray only to be punished in the end ?
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Personally, I don't believe in gods. But I find your interpretation more appropriate than the faith only interpretation. So, what a bizarre situation. Millions of "christians" believing one way and millions of others believing a different way about the most fundamental of issues. How could this happen ? If God really existed, why would he not set everyone straight rather than allow them to be easily led astray only to be punished in the end ?
Agreed. This bigoted view of salvation is the main reason why few people listen to Jesus' words. Ironically, Jesus' words completely refute the notion of faith based exclusive salvation doctrines.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
In my assessment of the Hebrew scriptures and Jesus words (minus Paul). There are three categories of humans when it comes to salvation. Contrary to the common viewpoint of their being two groups of people. Those who believe in Jesus (group 1) and those who don't (group 2).

In my opinion there is actually three groups of humans.

Group one: These are people who are good in heart and live honest lives. They help others and are sincere in heart. Many of these people have never heard of Jesus and many may practice a completely different faith even! Yet these people will be resurrected and will not be destroyed.

Group two: These people are evil people who pray on the innocent. These people will be destroyed by God imho.

Group three: These people are God's law abiding citizens who walk in all of His statutes. These people will be given a special place in the kingdom of God that other humans will not have.

To see the full argument made for this model see:

What's at stake
 
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