Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
You are talking about a parable. You are also talking about a holding place that is contrasted with Abraham's bosom. NOT the lake of fire.
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Loving God = Eternal Torture?
- Thread starter Triumphant_Loser
- Start date
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
Exactly. This is why God cut man off from the tree of life. He didn't want us having "an eternal soul" while being sent to the lake of fire. Satan will burn forever because he ate from the tree of life.
Right lane
Member
Well, you just made my point. How do you know that God operates as you just described ? If I asked someone else, I am confident I would get a very different answer. Your description of God is not fact but rather your personal belief.
Also, it makes no sense that God would intentionally make few people able to,understand him yet punish them for not believing in him.
Mark 16:16. “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who disbelieves will be condemned.”
2 Thessalonians, 8-9:"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."
John 3:36 : “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
Luke 12:5: "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."
John 15:6 : "If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned."
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
If anyone wants to read a truly interesting take on this topic I suggest the following link:
What's at stake
What's at stake
Right lane
Member
If there isn't anything to send to hell does that mean there isn't anything to send to heaven ?
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
It has nothing to do with personal belief. It is about turning to God and being a good person….in action. This is the premise of every parable of Jesus. The reason why most people believe that "faith" makes a person justified is because of Paul's epistles. Another reason is because the word "believe" found in the gospels is a poor translation from the greek word pisteou which is more accurately translated as OBEY/TRUST. This means that Jesus never said that salvation for humans was contingent of "believing in him", as almost all of Christianity claims.
Right lane
Member
What is the evidence that hell or heaven actually exist other than people saying or writing that it is so ?
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
This is why the soul has to be brought back to life by God. This is what God promises to those who love and trust Him.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
There is no evidence that you could measure scientifically. I personally don't believe individuals are currently in "heaven or hell". I believe dead humans are in sheol or "the grave" in some sort of holding position until the resurrection and judgement. I realize that Catholics have run wild with this concept and have used it to make money by allowing people to pay to get their dead loved ones out of "purgatory". Regardless of these abuses. The Hebrew text clearly points to a temporary holding place until the judgement.
Right lane
Member
Your claim is not consistent with the following passages;
Mark 16:16. “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who disbelieves will be condemned.”
2 Thessalonians, 8-9:"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."
John 3:36 : “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
Luke 12:5: "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."
John 15:6 : "If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned."
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
Mark 16:16. “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who disbelieves will be condemned.”
Bad translation. As I said above. The word you have as "believes" should be translated as "obey/trust".
2 Thessalonians, 8-9:"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."
Paul was crazy. I don't regard his words at all. Nor did Paul know Jesus.
John 3:36 : “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
Same problem with the word "believeth"
Luke 12:5: "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."
Yes. God does have authority to destroy evil humans.
John 15:6 : "If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned."
Yes, abide in him means follows him and change your actions.
Bad translation. As I said above. The word you have as "believes" should be translated as "obey/trust".
2 Thessalonians, 8-9:"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."
Paul was crazy. I don't regard his words at all. Nor did Paul know Jesus.
John 3:36 : “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
Same problem with the word "believeth"
Luke 12:5: "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."
Yes. God does have authority to destroy evil humans.
John 15:6 : "If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned."
Yes, abide in him means follows him and change your actions.
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Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
To further prove that "belief" has nothing to do with this judgement….consider the following text from John.
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. John 5: 28-29
Remember, this book has been exploited as the premier gospel to evangelical christians because they believe that Paul's "faith alone" logic is found in Jesus' words. This is false and only exists because of a false translation as I have already shown. What is clear in this text as good people will be restored and evil people will be destroyed. Not about personal beliefs as much as ACTIONS/REPENTANCE.
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. John 5: 28-29
Remember, this book has been exploited as the premier gospel to evangelical christians because they believe that Paul's "faith alone" logic is found in Jesus' words. This is false and only exists because of a false translation as I have already shown. What is clear in this text as good people will be restored and evil people will be destroyed. Not about personal beliefs as much as ACTIONS/REPENTANCE.
Right lane
Member
truthofscripture
Active Member
Soul and life are synonyms, not separate parts of us.
truthofscripture
Active Member
Never learning about God is one thing, but learning about Him and not believing, is yet another, deserving of destruction.
Right lane
Member
Personally, I don't believe in gods. But I find your interpretation more appropriate than the faith only interpretation. So, what a bizarre situation. Millions of "christians" believing one way and millions of others believing a different way about the most fundamental of issues. How could this happen ? If God really existed, why would he not set everyone straight rather than allow them to be easily led astray only to be punished in the end ?
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
Did you read any of my posts above^^^??? I said that opposite of what you just said.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
Agreed. This bigoted view of salvation is the main reason why few people listen to Jesus' words. Ironically, Jesus' words completely refute the notion of faith based exclusive salvation doctrines.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
In my assessment of the Hebrew scriptures and Jesus words (minus Paul). There are three categories of humans when it comes to salvation. Contrary to the common viewpoint of their being two groups of people. Those who believe in Jesus (group 1) and those who don't (group 2).
In my opinion there is actually three groups of humans.
Group one: These are people who are good in heart and live honest lives. They help others and are sincere in heart. Many of these people have never heard of Jesus and many may practice a completely different faith even! Yet these people will be resurrected and will not be destroyed.
Group two: These people are evil people who pray on the innocent. These people will be destroyed by God imho.
Group three: These people are God's law abiding citizens who walk in all of His statutes. These people will be given a special place in the kingdom of God that other humans will not have.
To see the full argument made for this model see:
What's at stake
In my opinion there is actually three groups of humans.
Group one: These are people who are good in heart and live honest lives. They help others and are sincere in heart. Many of these people have never heard of Jesus and many may practice a completely different faith even! Yet these people will be resurrected and will not be destroyed.
Group two: These people are evil people who pray on the innocent. These people will be destroyed by God imho.
Group three: These people are God's law abiding citizens who walk in all of His statutes. These people will be given a special place in the kingdom of God that other humans will not have.
To see the full argument made for this model see:
What's at stake