Loving God = Eternal Torture?

[truthofscripture]

Yes Christians who who have no works have a dead faith. This means they lose some of their heavenly treasures and their current peaceful fellowship with God, but that does not mean they lose their eternal salvation. That was purchased for all mankind by Christ on the cross.

For salvation a person turns from his own self-righteousness to God (Read the small explanation of the gospel below). This is called repentance. This person then receives the Holy Spirit which teaches, guides and comforts him and ultimately conforms him to the image of Christ. That is a work of God, but a Christian is also able to resist this work of God and remain fleshly/carnal. It's something which is a very bad idea. You will not be saved from the Judgment seat of Christ if you live a carnal life.

But note, Eternal salvation is only effective for those who believe the simple gospel of Christ. Only those who are truly innocent plus/and can not understand the gospel in any way (which literally excludes all those on this forum and might include a 1-year-old child) are home free. But that doesn't really make a difference, because it is simple to be saved: Jesus died on the cross for your sins and if you trust that his blood can wash you clean and that he rose from the grave, you will be saved. This is not something you can deserve. It is from the grace of God.

It is available

Don't mean to burst any bubbles here, but we don't store up anything in the way of heavenly treasures, for we don't go to heaven. We have no immortal soul. The Christ died on a stauros, not a cross. Look it up. It's Greek for stake/pole.

 

[BilliardsBall]

What links Isaiah 1 29-31 to something post-death?

What pre-death fires are never quenched?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Eternity means "for an age." ... Better translated "for a time until the price is paid." Hell and Fire are mental/physical torment. When one dies, their carnality dies with them. What was sewn to their spirit in pure love and truth sticks.

Bad news, then, for those going to Heaven, because they will also disappear/perish, since it's not really eternity, but "a time".

 

[Kolibri]

What pre-death fires are never quenched?

All Isaiah 1:31 means is that Jehovah's perfect judgement on these ones can not be overturned by anyone. No one can extinguish his decree. Both the idol maker and the idols will be ruined - destroyed with absolute certainty.

 

[Unification]

Bad news, then, for those going to Heaven, because they will also disappear/perish, since it's not really eternity, but "a time".

Heaven should be experienced now. What God has prepared for anyone, let it be so.

 

[evenpath]

Things like eternal torture and if you don't believe .......

It's obvious rhetoric like this has a clear purpose to scare people into and corral our primal fears into a particular direction of one's choosing.

Funny thing though, that it works so wonderfully on so many folks without any basis with reality.

The crux of the fear, strangely enough, comes from ideology alone that has no actual substance or basis on which to go by that would properly ground one's fears. .


Why not therefore use the psychological impact that's effective enough to keep people locked in by threats alone?

People get scared with their own mind without justification and make it real by association.

To answer the op. Its necessary for the employment of torture in scriptures in order to keep people within that religion because torture is actually more real than God.

Nefarious, isn't it?

Nice! Nefarious indeed and a kind psychological terrorism that really has no place within modern day ethical standards.

 

[Pedestrian]

I think you both need to study the scriptures. "We" don't go to heaven ever, only the annointed. Saint means "holy one". No holy ones return to Earth,...

Jude 14-15
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord COMETH with ten thousands of his saints,
To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

I assume you don't hold an orthodox interpretation of this verse.

 

[Kolibri]

Jude 14-15
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord COMETH with ten thousands of his saints,
To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

I assume you don't hold an orthodox interpretation of this verse.

Jude 14 would not be a case of anyone returning. These holy ones would be the angels who never lived here to begin with. Enoch was 7th in line from Adam, and was unique enough to be singled out as a worshiper of Jehovah. Be kind of hard to argue that there had been already "tens of thousands" of humans that proved to be holy at the time of death at this early date.

 

[BilliardsBall]

All Isaiah 1:31 means is that Jehovah's perfect judgement on these ones can not be overturned by anyone. No one can extinguish his decree. Both the idol maker and the idols will be ruined - destroyed with absolute certainty.

How do you know which fires are literal and which are metaphorical?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Nice! Nefarious indeed and a kind psychological terrorism that really has no place within modern day ethical standards.

Or you could just read Luke 16 and thus have a balanced understanding of what Hell is and isn't--and it isn't a medieval picture.

 

[Kolibri]

How do you know which fires are literal and which are metaphorical?

In this case context bears consideration.

For you will become like a big tree with withering leaves,
And like a garden without water.
The strong man will become tow, (a flammable ropelike fiber.)
And his work a spark;
Both of them will go up in flames together,
With no one to extinguish them.
- Isaiah 1:30,31

Do the men and women here literally become big trees? or a garden? or tow?

 

[ljgregorysr]

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[sojourner]

Don't mean to burst any bubbles here, but we don't store up anything in the way of heavenly treasures, for we don't go to heaven. We have no immortal soul. The Christ died on a stauros, not a cross. Look it up. It's Greek for stake/pole.

Uh huh. Yeeeah. That may be your position, but it's certainly not the opinion of anything approaching orthodox.

 

[sojourner]

I was wondering when we would be "trolling" the same threads again.

Correct me if I am wrong here. Matthew 5:18 is literally "amen/for/I am saying/to you(plural)/until/likely/might pass away/the/heaven/and/the/earth/iota/one/or/one/little horn/not/not/should pass away/from/the/Law/until/likely/all (things)/should take place."

Another way to render this verse then would be "Truly I say to you that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one stroke of a letter pass away from the Law until all things take place."
This sounds more like how Luke 16:17 reads: "Indeed, it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to go unfulfilled."

I agree, the literal heavens and the literal earth are still here. But this is not a statement that the Law would last as long as they exist. Jesus was using a hyperbole - an exaggeration - to emphasize the certainty of the Law's fulfillment. Jesus was saying It is more likely for the heaven and earth to be destroyed than for the Law Covenant to end with its purposes unfulfilled.

Yeah, I agree it's hyperbole -- but not in the way you've mentioned. You've managed to torture the texts to say something they just don't say.

 

[sojourner]

Jude 14 would not be a case of anyone returning. These holy ones would be the angels who never lived here to begin with. Enoch was 7th in line from Adam, and was unique enough to be singled out as a worshiper of Jehovah. Be kind of hard to argue that there had been already "tens of thousands" of humans that proved to be holy at the time of death at this early date.

Not "angels who never lived here," but martyrs whom God has vindicated.

 

[sojourner]

The hell that religions teach does not exist. The concept of an immortal soul is not true either. Hell is the common grave of man, and the soul means the life. They're synonyms. When you die, you're no longer a soul. Nothing survives death, your thoughts perish, you go back to the dust from whence you came.

This is a very "OT" point of view -- essentially correct, but only congruous with ancient Hebraic thought -- not with Christian thought. Also, "soul" is not completely synonymous with the Hebrew nephesh, or "life." To make it so really confuses the meaning, because "soul" carries such Platonic baggage. I think it's a mistake to try to reconcile the Gentile concept of "soul" with the Hebrew nephesh; they just don't reconcile well. Each must be held gently apart from the other.

 

[sojourner]

It is imperative to stay clear from religions, as they're all said to be false in the scriptures. They're said to be Babylon the Great, and are marked for destruction, along with their participants.

I don't know where you're getting this, because that's certainly neither explicit nor implied in the texts.

In other words, it's the scriptures, not religion, to which we must cling.

Not so, since the preponderance of people to whom and about whom the bible speaks were illiterate.

 

[Kolibri]

Yeah, I agree it's hyperbole -- but not in the way you've mentioned. You've managed to torture the texts to say something they just don't say.

then perhaps you have a different point in mind? "Until all things have taken placed"/"till all be fulfilled" is the defining clause here, no?

Not "angels who never lived here," but martyrs whom God has vindicated

These same "ten thousands of saints" or "holy myriads" were also spoken of at De 33:2, Da 7:10, and Zec 14:5. Vindicated martyrs, really?

 

[sojourner]

This is just as easily explained by the resurrection. Remember Jesus liked death to sleep. The dead are woke up from that non-existent state and given a body that is suitable for the environment they will individually be living in.

Except that when the bible speaks of resurrection, it's more in reference to the community or nation of people than it is to individuals.

We also have to keep in mind that the words immortal and soul never meet in the Bible. Soul is always connected to material beings,

That's a result of a translational problem -- not a theological position, particularly.

 

[sojourner]

No, thanks, I had Luke 16 in mind, where we can see what eternal punishment looks like. The "sleeping dead" is certainly what it looked like to some of the OT writers, while others warned us, like Isaiah, that:

You will be ashamed because of the sacred oaks
in which you have delighted;
you will be disgraced because of the gardens
that you have chosen.
30 You will be like an oak with fading leaves,
like a garden without water.
31 The mighty man will become tinder
and his work a spark;
both will burn together,
with no one to quench the fire
- Is 1

There will be NONE to quench the fire. NONE includes God, who does not lie in the Bible.

Remember that the ancient Judaic religion was patently anti-life after death -- and not because they saw God as some "eternal punisher." That stance was in place to safeguard the monotheistic religion from "cults of the dead," in which dead ancestors were seen to be godlike.