I am talking about the tower of Babel. Much much older than what you are speaking of.
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Lucifer. is there a Devil?
- Thread starter Father
- Start date
I am talking about the tower of Babel. Much much older than what you are speaking of.
I'm not going to bother with the responses past about the first page since the OP basically has the right idea in the first few posts and the original post but forgot the bit about "The Morning Star" literally referring to the planet Venus which is also known by that name since well it's the brightest star early in the morning. I see it all the time and it does indeed appear to rise then fall back behind the horizon every morning.
Every objective critical analysis I've seen of the verse in question does point to it being the king that's being addressed literally right before and after that passage. What, do people think the guy writing it just changed suddenly who he was talking about then changed back?
As for what I saw skimming about Lucifer being a roman god, the "bright and morning star" and "lightbearer" is also an early christian concept you can see in the last couple of verses of Revelation and in some of the church letters ("let the morning star rise in your hearts" ect). Google that phrase if you want to find the verse I can't be bothered.
However I know I read about it in some of the Order of the Eastern Star literature I got my hands on years ago, which is a masonic Christian organization so I know at least some Christians still understand Jesus in that way.
Every objective critical analysis I've seen of the verse in question does point to it being the king that's being addressed literally right before and after that passage. What, do people think the guy writing it just changed suddenly who he was talking about then changed back?
As for what I saw skimming about Lucifer being a roman god, the "bright and morning star" and "lightbearer" is also an early christian concept you can see in the last couple of verses of Revelation and in some of the church letters ("let the morning star rise in your hearts" ect). Google that phrase if you want to find the verse I can't be bothered.
However I know I read about it in some of the Order of the Eastern Star literature I got my hands on years ago, which is a masonic Christian organization so I know at least some Christians still understand Jesus in that way.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Whether a person believe's or not.
Lucifer,the Devil and Satan, could care less if a person believe's or not.
As long as they do not believe in God.
You see Satan could careless about your flesh body, What Satan really wants is your soul,spirit, If Satan can get you to denounce God period. Then Satan has accomplish to destroy your, soul,spirit.
Your body of flesh means nothing to Satan, that is not what Satan is after.
What Satan is really after is your soul, spirit, to Destroy your soul,spirit Satan has accomplish exactly what he wanted to do.
Is take you right along with him into hell.
For each time that a person curse's God, brings a smile on Satan's face, knowing he's got you.
Satan could give a darn whether you believe in him or not. Satan already knows he's got you in his snare. once you denounce God.
Oh yeah Satan will make you think everything is going just great for you, Until the day you die, Then the game is up, Now your facing the Almighty God.
You know Christ Jesus did say, fear them not, who is able to destroy the body.
But fear Him, who is able to Destroy the body and soul in hell.
Once a person denounce God, God has the same right to denounce you also.
Hey What goes around comes around.
Lucifer,the Devil and Satan, could care less if a person believe's or not.
As long as they do not believe in God.
You see Satan could careless about your flesh body, What Satan really wants is your soul,spirit, If Satan can get you to denounce God period. Then Satan has accomplish to destroy your, soul,spirit.
Your body of flesh means nothing to Satan, that is not what Satan is after.
What Satan is really after is your soul, spirit, to Destroy your soul,spirit Satan has accomplish exactly what he wanted to do.
Is take you right along with him into hell.
For each time that a person curse's God, brings a smile on Satan's face, knowing he's got you.
Satan could give a darn whether you believe in him or not. Satan already knows he's got you in his snare. once you denounce God.
Oh yeah Satan will make you think everything is going just great for you, Until the day you die, Then the game is up, Now your facing the Almighty God.
You know Christ Jesus did say, fear them not, who is able to destroy the body.
But fear Him, who is able to Destroy the body and soul in hell.
Once a person denounce God, God has the same right to denounce you also.
Hey What goes around comes around.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I thought man first sinned.
And if angels sinned first, then why weren't all the Angels cursed? According to the Bible all of man was cursed, and why didn't Jesus die for the Angels like he's supposedly died for man?
Being Adam sinned first, wouldn't Adam be the devil?
Old Scratch
Active Member
As your Dark Lord, some things I know.
I've been to places you can't go.
In hellish nightmares that you fear
into that darkness you should peer.
Whose eyes see you while you are staring?
Tis Mine which are back at you glaring.
Father
Devourer of Truth
so i take it the AA meetings are not going to well Satan?
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Not a save on your part.
You are really out of it when you don't understand the posts you replied to in the first place.
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This started with #34 which includes this, to Father -
"You are correct - Isaiah 14 is actually about a human. The king of Babylon.
There is actually no name Lucifer in that text.
Isaiah is talking about a fallen Babylonian King.
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In # 42 I replied including these -
There is NO Lucifer.
And Ezekiel 28, just like Isaiah 14, is talking about a real place and a human King.
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In # 43 YOU SAID -
than who is Lucifer in Isaiah 14:12?
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In # 45 I replied, -
There is no Lucifer in Isaiah 14:12.
See # 34 and 36.
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In # 58 YOU replied to this fragment - No Satan - a King of Babylon.
Do tell what did Babel (Babylon) try to do that displeased God?
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MY reply # 60, -
Do you folks even read the texts you are debating?
Google The Babylonian captivity.
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YOUR REPLY # 61 - I am talking about the tower of Babel. Much much older than what you are speaking of.
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Obviously, as you can see, we were in a discussion about there being no Lucifer, and the text being about a king of Babylon.
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Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
The problem with this is that there is no evil autonomous Satan, or Lucifer, in Tanakh.
The serpent in Genesis is not called Satan, and we are told this serpent's punishment is to crawl on his belly tasting the air forever (a real snake), - thus not Satan.
All of these were made up by later people.
In Job - YHVH points Job out - to be tested. And it says YHVH is responsible, all the way through the text.
In his first appearance in the NT - he tests Jesus - before he starts his ministry.
In Tanakh Satan is a servant of YHVH. His job is to put stumbling blocks/tests/adversity in the paths of people to see how they react to adversity, and if found lacking/sinning, then he brings them before YHVH to accuse them.
Zec 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him.
Psa 109:6 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.
Psa 109:7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.
Again, - All the evil autonomous stuff was made up by later people.
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DavidFirth
Well-Known Member
Satan first sinned before Eve when he tempted her.
The angels are spirits not related like men.
Angels don't die.
No, Adam didn't sin first.
DavidFirth
Well-Known Member
The Tanakh has nothing to do with Christian faith. I don't care about the Tanakh. Christians accept the Bible as God's word.
All your is arguing over semantics. I have no interest that.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Since Christians say the Bible is both books, - then -
You really need to say, - I accept only the Christian retelling of another faiths' religious texts.
Or, - I only believe in the New Testament.
I've shown you that there is no evil autonomous Satan in Tanakh.
That evil Satan idea is much later.
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Father
Devourer of Truth
HEY you must be new here. welcome to religion. where everything IS a semantics battle. over 3000-year-old bronze-iron age texts made by anonymous writers who didn't know where the sun went at night, thought women were property and dragons were real. and whom died at the age of 25 due to constant war and curable illness.
have a seat
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Semantics? LOL! - OBVIOUSLY we were discussing Isaiah, Lucifer, and BABYLON, not the tower of Babel.
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DavidFirth
Well-Known Member
You've only shown me ignorance. Satan tempted Eve, there are references in the Bible that confirm it and it's common knowledge among Christians.
I don't read the Tanakh. If it differs from the Bible it is because the Jews changed it after the Romans sacked them in AD 70. Christians like me accept the Bible as the inerrant word of God. Those filled with the Spirit know Him. Those who deny Christ deny Him.
You are foolish to think you can discern spiritual things while denying Christ. You've been deceived.
That's how I see it, it's pretty obvious to me.
The tower of Babel was in Babylon. They used it to try and circumvent God to get to heaven. This is the issue between God and Satan. God wants us to go through Jesus to have salvation and be forgiven. Satan wants to be the final arbiter instead, so that's what he promises. To give people heaven without being judged by God. That is the relevance that you do not understand.
You can argue semantics all day it does not change the facts though. As much as you try to twist them to suit your needs, it is futile.
Father
Devourer of Truth
exactly. you're just wrong. the Jews who wrote the bible state your wrong. they have more authority on it than anyone its their book not yours
Father
Devourer of Truth
and no the tower of babble was smote because none can enter heaven. heaven at the time was simply the realm of God and angels. all men went to sheol. all dead that is.
also, God is a prick. he killed someone for trying to catch the ark when it was falling
he could have easily been annoyed about the towers shape for all we know. have you read the bible? the character is all wrath jealously and crazy ex-girlfriend
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
You are adding things to Tanakh that aren't there.
Satan is mentioned in Genesis, yet it does not say Satan was in the garden with Chav'vah, or that he tricked Chav'vah.
If it was Satan then why didn't they use the name Satan?
Instead it says a serpent, and the serpent becomes FOREVER a serpent on the ground tasting the air.
And by the way - it says the serpent is from among the beasts of the field that God created. (A beast created on Earth)
Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Obviously the serpent is NOT Satan.
That jump was made by later people.
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