Magick and Prayer

[jasonwill2]

I am a Witch, but a somewhat unorthodox Witch -- by which I mean that I speak for myself and not others who call themselves "Witches." (In other words, if you want an excuse to dismiss what I say, I've given it to you.)

This is a very simplstic notion of magick and prayer. I've heard that Patricia Telesco speaks of magick as "co-creation." I haven't read her on this, but I am in complete agreement. Magick is not about control; it's about entering into a dance with the forces of creation. It's a dance of love.

Most people -- Witches included -- seem to think of magick in terms of manipulation. It is interesting -- to say the least -- to reflect on the fact that this is the very attitude that environmentalists, especially those of a Pagan stripe, find fault with in those who attempt to dominate the Earth, causing pollution and shortages in the necessaries of life. What is the difference between strip mining a mountain or clear cutting a forest and forcing the spirit world to manifest your desires? It's the same thing.

Magick is a dance with the forces of creation. The Witch may lead in this dance, but if she attempts to dominate her partners she has left the path of wisdom and love. LIkewise, prayer is not an attempt to change reality in accordance with the will. Prayer is about communion with the divine. That's it. That's all. If you happen to ask for things, it's not trying to effect change. It's not manipulation. It's asking, like asking your parents as a small child. If you're trying to manipulate reality when you ask your deity for a boon, you've seriously missed the point.

Love your deity, however you conceive of Him or Her. That's the secret. That's all.

LHP faiths force no spirits to do our will, we are their peers as they have invited us to be. It's a friendship and a kinship. I hate it when people are disrespectful to the forces of darkness. They invite us to be gods among them, and some forms of ritual spit in their face at this.

The difference between prayer and magic is that prayer is submissive where as magic isn't. This seems to be the difference when I think about it. No wonder the Christians see magic as evil, it's not humble or submissive.

 

[Tom Terrific]

The difference between prayer and magic is that prayer is submissive where as magic isn't. This seems to be the difference when I think about it. No wonder the Christians see magic as evil, it's not humble or submissive.

Not to be disrespectful -- I understand why you must think this -- but this is a simplistic understanding of prayer. Prayer, like worship, is fundamentally about communion, not submission.

Many Christians seem confused on this, as well.

 

[jasonwill2]

Not to be disrespectful -- I understand why you must think this -- but this is a simplistic understanding of prayer. Prayer, like worship, is fundamentally about communion, not submission.

Many Christians seem confused on this, as well.

Well yes, communion, but a very submissive communion. They get on their knees and bow their heads. That is a gesture of submission.

 

[Tom Terrific]

Well yes, communion, but a very submissive communion. They get on their knees and bow their heads. That is a gesture of submission.

It's deeper than that.

Submission is hierarchical in nature; but love is non-hierarchical, and Christian theology states that love is the fundamental relationship between man and God.

Here's the resolution. Love is about opening oneself to the beloved. Total openness looks a lot like submission, because it is a complete yielding to the beloved. Yet, submission is a power relationship and maintains the division between the one submitting and the one being submitted to, while love unites. Love transcends this division. Submission is about power; love is not.

Yes, I know there is submission language in the Bible. Limits of language and understanding. In addition, as I said, many Christians don't get this and to some extent continue to see their relationships with their deity in terms of submission rather than in terms of love.

 

[jasonwill2]

It's deeper than that.

Submission is hierarchical in nature; but love is non-hierarchical, and Christian theology states that love is the fundamental relationship between man and God.

Here's the resolution. Love is about opening oneself to the beloved. Total openness looks a lot like submission, because it is a complete yielding to the beloved. Yet, submission is a power relationship and maintains the division between the one submitting and the one being submitted to, while love unites. Love transcends this division. Submission is about power; love is not.

Yes, I know there is submission language in the Bible. Limits of language and understanding. In addition, as I said, many Christians don't get this and to some extent continue to see their relationships with their deity in terms of submission rather than in terms of love.

This is such a pile of foolish rubbish. The Christian god is anything but love, and Christians are hypocrites to call themselves a religion of "love". It is hypocritical self-deceit and spiritual pipe dreams. The Christian god completely wants submission. If you took time to read the Bible you would see where this is with all his commandments and decelerations.

The way I was taught was that part of the "love" was submitting yourself to god; that since he loves us, we submit to him because he has our "best interests" at heart. That "all works to good for those who love Christ", as one verse says, or some wording very similar to that.

Well, I saw all that "love", and it was nothing but an egotistical jerk pushing his followers around to "test them". I experienced these "trials", but then I realized that nothing I could do would ever make such a cruel god happy, no matter how hard I tried I was always going to be "sinful" and carnal.

I tell you, that kind of god is a god of submission. I SAY THIS FROM EXPERIENCE. Yahweh wants complete obedience and worship. Even two of the Ten Commandments say this about worship ("No other gods before me", "no graven images").

Prayer is submissive, magic is not. Through magic one is empowered, through prayer one is like a begging god "oh god, if it's your will, heal my dying friend from his illness!" is what they are speaking, when instead they should be casting compassion rituals and then going out and raising money for their friend's treatment, further strengthening (and also fullfilling) their ritual.

I say this In Nomine Satana through my own experiences. Just so we are clear that I am very inclined to not believe you when you say it's about love, for I have seen that "love." I went to a very lovey-dovey "Christ forgives all and loves you" Church for 3-4 years. Note that when I say "lovey-dovey" and "Christ forgives all" I am NOT being Ironic; that was really the Church's focus. Granted, lovey-dovey fundies, but still lovey-dovey.

Just to be clear here how much I understand the "love" position.

 

[Tom Terrific]

Prayer is submissive, magic is not. Through magic one is empowered, through prayer one is like a begging god "oh god, if it's your will, heal my dying friend from his illness!"

As you say, you speak from your experience. Likewise, I speak from mine. In addition to having been raised a fundamentalist Christian, I also have a B.A. in Biblical studies. For the last 20 years, I have been a Witch; I no longer worship the Christian god, but a goddess. Prayer does not have to be about kowtowing to an overlord. It can be about love.

I do not discount the reallity of your experience. However, it would be foolish to assume that your experience is the only experience possible. The kind of relationship I described can be found in Christianity.

The lines i quoted, above, from your last message are all about power. Love is not about power. You may not believe that Christianity is, or can be, about love; but even if that were so, love would still not be about power.

You don't have to be a Christian to experience divine love. I found it elsewhere. So can you.

 

[jasonwill2]

As you say, you speak from your experience. Likewise, I speak from mine. In addition to having been raised a fundamentalist Christian, I also have a B.A. in Biblical studies. For the last 20 years, I have been a Witch; I no longer worship the Christian god, but a goddess. Prayer does not have to be about kowtowing to an overlord. It can be about love.

I do not discount the reallity of your experience. However, it would be foolish to assume that your experience is the only experience possible. The kind of relationship I described can be found in Christianity.

The lines i quoted, above, from your last message are all about power. Love is not about power. You may not believe that Christianity is, or can be, about love; but even if that were so, love would still not be about power.

You don't have to be a Christian to experience divine love. I found it elsewhere. So can you.

For me, love involves a TWO way forfeit of power. A give and take. The Christian god is all take and no give. He will not compromise or forfeit his power. Love has great power, but I felt powerless, helpless, and worthless as a Christian, vilified for doing what I thought was right, as I did things my "own way", and not "god's way".

Then I gained power and learned what true love was. Anyway, not saying that Christians do not feel loved by their god, but in most cases they do not pray to be loved, but because they want to thank god for something or ask for something, or seek guidence, never just to "feel loved".

 

[Duck]

Not so fast my friend... that second statement needs substantiation.

Consider; prayer is an attempt at communion with the divine rather than an attempt to manifest change through psychological manipulation.

I prefer a more generalized definition of magic, that would cover prayer as well. Magic being an attempt to alter the universe in conjunction with one's will or desires. Usually, but not always this is done by will alone, but the use of ritual, external forces or other aids are not ruled out. Granted the use of some technologies could fall in this definition as well.