Magick and Prayer

[Hexavibrongal]

So, once again, you agree that prayer is magick, and that god is just a piece of the ritual. It seems the only problem you are having with that logic is you god's supposed involvement changes everything. However, this thread is based on the fact that prayer works because of psychological aspects, and therefore is magick. You've even confirmed here that prayer is psychological.

If your definition of "magick" is just anything psychological, then yes, Christian prayer, meditation, the field of psychology, and many other things are "magick". However I was responding to you specifically saying that Christians think meditation is evil. To me, the way you've been using and spelling the word magick in this thread implies a pagan/evil definition of will-enhancing magic as viewed from a Christian perspective. What I'm arguing is simply that from a scriptural Christian/RHP perspective, some forms of prayer and meditation are evil/pagan, and others are not. I thought this is what you were talking about, sorry if I misunderstood.

 

[1137]

If your definition of "magick" is just anything psychological, then yes, Christian prayer, meditation, the field of psychology, and many other things are "magick". However I was responding to you specifically saying that Christians think meditation is evil. To me, the way you've been using and spelling the word magick in this thread implies a pagan/evil definition of will-enhancing magic as viewed from a Christian perspective. What I'm arguing is simply that from a scriptural Christian/RHP perspective, some forms of prayer and meditation are evil/pagan, and others are not. I thought this is what you were talking about, sorry if I misunderstood.

No no apologies. I misunderstood the exactly what we were talking about. Theres a lot going on here haha

 

[Sleeppy]

Alright, I'm playing catch-up here.



Magick is defined in the OP.

"Magick -the practice of causing change through psychological manipulation, generally that of the self. Ritual, symbolism, chanting, meditation, invocation, etc are all used to influence one's own mind and cause change. Because of this, much studying, practice, and trial is required to find the ritual style, symbolism, etc that best works for a person. It is similar to the placebo affect, however it can be proven to work through brain scans during practice. Nobody denies the power of the mind. With magick, all comes from within."

The definition has been provided. The point is that the asking for blessings, praising, etc is the same as the symbolism in magick. It works because it has unrealized psychological affects, not because some god is bestowing blessings.

Why call god the "Most High God" if it is the only god? Why not just call him god? The reason is because that title is all part of the symbolism. Same as with magick ritual, you have found what affects you the best psychologically to cause the most change. Otherwise there is absolutely no reason to call the one god that exists the greatest god. The only god is the greatest god.

What isn't "magick" then? According to this definition, even learning is "magick."

I don't agree with you.

I call Him that to emphasize not that He is God among others like Him, but that He is above all else, being God. -Not because it's apart of my own psychological manipulation.

 

[Orias]

So, the question is, how can many religious people claim prayer to be good while magick to be evil, when they are one in the same? My own theory is that teaching such a thing forces a person to look externally and ignore internal power. But perhaps there is more to it.

Maybe physics can add a little gravity onto psychology.

"An object in motion tends to stay in motion", can kind of be related to "A person in a position of power tends to stay in a position of power".

In what ways can one make themselves more powerful and increasingly so? In what ways is power described? Physically usually, and dominion over other beings and land. So money has a lot to do with this as well.

So the best way to remain powerful and grow more powerful would be to make people "look the other way". Of course there are always those who side with the latter for rational reasons such as "Power for him is power for me". Which is where trust and finger pointing come in

Its almost like separating a persons complete personality into distinct and individual references :areyoucra, in terms of translation and use of language.

Power...

Bah...

 

[1137]

What isn't "magick" then? According to this definition, even learning is "magick."

In a way, yes. Magick is a constant part of every day life. However, there is a difference between going to college and practicing ritual. For me, I am very Left Hand Path as they say whereas you are RHP. My spirituality and practice of it is ingrained in my life, not separate from it.

I don't agree with you.

I didn't really expect you to...

I call Him that to emphasize not that He is God among others like Him, but that He is above all else, being God. -Not because it's apart of my own psychological manipulation.

It is still part of your own psychological manipulation, whether you accept that or not. The point is it only affects your idea of God by calling him the "Most High God". You cannot every directly change what is in another's mind, only influence it (through magick). Simply calling God "Most High God" is an attempt at magick, conscious or not.

 

[Orias]

What isn't "magick" then? According to this definition, even learning is "magick."

All you have to do is look it up in the dictionary.

mag·ic/ˈmajik/


Noun:The power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces.
Adjective:Used in magic or working by magic; having or apparently having supernatural powers: "a magic wand".
Synonyms:noun. sorcery - enchantment - witchcraft - spell - witchery
adjective. magical - enchanting


We could define mysterious and influential too if you would like.

But I would prefer not play the game of semantics, magic is what it is...influence!

So yes, by his definition your God is also magical!

I don't agree with you.

Yes, because it is so crass to use the entire definition of a word instead of a single outlet that appeals to you.

I call Him that to emphasize not that He is God among others like Him, but that He is above all else, being God. -Not because it's apart of my own psychological manipulation.

Well if its not psychological then it must be inherit.

If that is the case then I am in the same boat with you, being that I am an inherit Satanist.

Psychologically speaking people don't develope abstract reasoning until the age of 12, so anything spoken from a point beyond then is most likely because of manipulation even so most points spoken afterward are as well.

Of course though, this is considering that one believes everything that another tells them, including enemies and allies alike, you can chose your own bias

 

[Sleeppy]

All you have to do is look it up in the dictionary.

mag·ic/ˈmajik/


Noun:The power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces.
Adjective:Used in magic or working by magic; having or apparently having supernatural powers: "a magic wand".
Synonyms:noun. sorcery - enchantment - witchcraft - spell - witchery
adjective. magical - enchanting


We could define mysterious and influential too if you would like.

But I would prefer not play the game of semantics, magic is what it is...influence!

So yes, by his definition your God is also magical!


Yes, because it is so crass to use the entire definition of a word instead of a single outlet that appeals to you.



Well if its not psychological then it must be inherit.

If that is the case then I am in the same boat with you, being that I am an inherit Satanist.

Psychologically speaking people don't develope abstract reasoning until the age of 12, so anything spoken from a point beyond then is most likely because of manipulation even so most points spoken afterward are as well.

Of course though, this is considering that one believes everything that another tells them, including enemies and allies alike, you can chose your own bias

Laughable.

You do know I was responding to the definition already given in the OP?

I'll be polite and leave it at that.

 

[Sleeppy]

In a way, yes. Magick is a constant part of every day life. However, there is a difference between going to college and practicing ritual. For me, I am very Left Hand Path as they say whereas you are RHP. My spirituality and practice of it is ingrained in my life, not separate from it.


I didn't really expect you to...


It is still part of your own psychological manipulation, whether you accept that or not. The point is it only affects your idea of God by calling him the "Most High God". You cannot every directly change what is in another's mind, only influence it (through magick). Simply calling God "Most High God" is an attempt at magick, conscious or not.

I disagree. I'll leave it as simple as that.

 

[1137]

Laughable.

You do know I was responding to the definition already given in the OP?

I'll be polite and leave it at that.

Sum up the definition in the OP and you get one word: Influence. Nice try though.

 

[Sleeppy]

Sum up the definition in the OP and you get one word: Influence. Nice try though.

According to you:

Absolutely false. Magick has nothing to do with supernatural forces. First of all, supernatural forces do not exist. Only what is natural can exist. Just because we maybe cannot even fathom it does not mean it is above nature. It is the use of psychology to change our lives through symbolism and ritual, same as prayer.

Don't let your ego fool you into thinking you know my intents. I haven't put much effort in at all. Why? It's not really important to me whether you and the next guy here believe everything is magic, with an added k. Like I said, it's laughable.

 

[1137]

According to you:


Don't let your ego fool you into thinking you know my intents. I haven't put much effort in at all. Why? It's not really important to me whether you and the next guy here believe everything is magic, with an added k. Like I said, it's laughable.

So to prove me wrong, you quote me reinforcing that magick is influence? Ok... What is laughable is your argument here. Instead of acting high and mighty why not bring something to the table? Although... When you don't know the difference between the ideas of magic and magick, I'm not sure how much you really can bring to a conversation about magick...

 

[Sleeppy]

So to prove me wrong, you quote me reinforcing that magick is influence? Ok... What is laughable is your argument here. Instead of acting high and mighty why not bring something to the table? Although... When you don't know the difference between the ideas of magic and magick, I'm not sure how much you really can bring to a conversation about magick...

What argument? Have I presented an argument?

The difference between your definition and the other one, is that they are not the same.

One involves "mysterious or supernatural," the other explicitly denies it. Which is what I quoted you stating earlier.

Like you mention here, one has a k. The other one, not so much. You're lying.

 

[1137]

What argument? Have I presented an argument?

The difference between your definition and the other one, is that they are not the same.

One involves "mysterious or supernatural," the other explicitly denies it. Which is what I quoted you stating earlier.

Like you mention here, one has a k. The other one, not so much. You're lying.

I know... we are talking about magick. What in the world could I possibly be lying about?

 

[Sleeppy]

Sum up the definition in the OP and you get one word: Influence. Nice try though.

According to you:

Absolutely false. Magick has nothing to do with supernatural forces. First of all, supernatural forces do not exist. Only what is natural can exist. Just because we maybe cannot even fathom it does not mean it is above nature. It is the use of psychology to change our lives through symbolism and ritual, same as prayer.

According to Orais, which you also endorse as seen above

Noun:The power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces.
Adjective:Used in magic or working by magic; having or apparently having supernatural powers: "a magic wand".
Synonyms:noun. sorcery - enchantment - witchcraft - spell - witchery
adjective. magical - enchanting

They're not compatible. You're lying. Nice try though, right?

 

[1137]

According to you:


According to Orais, which you also endorse as seen above


They're not compatible. You're lying. Nice try though, right?

Well it was a nice try. Now it is pathetic. I never said magick is supernatural. I said it is influence. Influence can be psychological or supernatural (in theory), but I have never said magick is supernatural. Try again?

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Magick - the practice of causing change through psychological manipulation, generally that of the self. Ritual, symbolism, chanting, meditation, invocation, etc are all used to influence one's own mind and cause change. Because of this, much studying, practice, and trial is required to find the ritual style, symbolism, etc that best works for a person. It is similar to the placebo affect, however it can be proven to work through brain scans during practice. Nobody denies the power of the mind. With magick, all comes from within.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Now, praying is just another way of practicing magick. The symbols include one's god(s), following ritualistic dogma set up by religions, etc. A person who believes in prayer may heal faster if they know they are being prayed for, as it also comes from within.

Absolutely.

So, the question is, how can many religious people claim prayer to be good while magick to be evil, when they are one in the same?

It depends on what you are praying/enchanting for.

My own theory is that teaching such a thing forces a person to look externally and ignore internal power. But perhaps there is more to it.

It can and there is.

 

[Sleeppy]

Sum up the definition in the OP and you get one word: Influence. Nice try though.

Well it was a nice try. Now it is pathetic. I never said magick is supernatural. I said it is influence. Influence can be psychological or supernatural (in theory), but I have never said magick is supernatural. Try again?

Now you're saying it can be supernatural (in theory). Anything else?

Next time, don't try to use the definition of "magic" in support of your definition for "magick."

This is trivial, to me at least. The point is, you made up another definition for a word, I didn't even knew existed. Looking at definitions on the internet dictionaries - they're not the one in the OP. But, more important, I don't agree. Simple.

 

[Sleeppy]

Guess you were right, your lie is pretty pathetic.

Magick
noun
1.
Archaic . magic.
2.
a power or effort associated with wicca.

What you have is according to Aleister Crowley. Laughable. Oh, and Donald Kraig, too. He cosigns and lengthens it for you.

Magick: According to the famous occultist Aleister Crowley, magick is "the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will." ... In fact, Crowley... says that "every intentional act is a Magickal Act." If you follow his line of reasoning, there is a great deal of validity in what he says, although it is not what we are seeking at this time. We need to make the definition of magick a bit longer: Magick is the science and art of causing change (in consciousness) to occur in conformity with will, using means not currently understood by traditional Western science.
source: Modern Magick, by Donald Michael Kraig

 

[1137]

Now you're saying it can be supernatural (in theory). Anything else?

Next time, don't try to use the definition of "magic" in support of your definition for "magick."

This is trivial, to me at least. The point is, you made up another definition for a word, I didn't even knew existed. Looking at definitions on the internet dictionaries - they're not the one in the OP. But, more important, I don't agree. Simple.

Hahahaa this has to be a joke. I said INFLUENCE can be supernatural IN THEORY:

Influence can be psychological or supernatural (in theory)

I said in theory because I already stated nothing supernatural exists:

First of all, supernatural forces do not exist. Only what is natural can exist.

Guess you were right, your lie is pretty pathetic.




What you have is according to Aleister Crowley. Laughable. Oh, and Donald Kraig, too. He cosigns and lengthens it for you.

I didn't know I was Aleister Crowley or Donald Kraig. You see, the LHP is about individuality. We are not a hive mind, and therefore we only speak for ourselves. However, I defined magick from my POV in the OP and have not changed it. Only you have. Now that is pathetic and laughable.

 

[Sleeppy]

Hahahaa this has to be a joke. I said INFLUENCE can be supernatural IN THEORY:

I said in theory because I already stated nothing supernatural exists:

I didn't know I was Aleister Crowley or Donald Kraig. You see, the LHP is about individuality. We are not a hive mind, and therefore we only speak for ourselves. However, I defined magick from my POV in the OP and have not changed it. Only you have. Now that is pathetic and laughable.

And so!!!! You made up your own definition. Admit it. Not so hard, right? Don't go hugging on Orais' leg (or Aleister Crowley's)...... Or Donald's.

This makes it much simpler, see? I don't agree with your definition!!! Or line of reasoning. So, not much to argue about.

Take it easy, though. I bought life to your useless thread.