Magick and Prayer

[Sleeppy]

So, what is this "Most High God"? Is prayer to any other god not actually prayer?

Exactly what you quoted - the Most High God. According to my definition, "prayer" to any other god is not prayer.

Is it then magic? I don't know and have no interest in it, at the moment.

 

[Draka]

Exactly what you quoted - the Most High God. According to my definition, "prayer" to any other god is not prayer.

Is it then magic? I don't know and have no interest in it, at the moment.

But, which god is the "Most High God" then? And how would one determine that? Why is prayer to Isis or Cerridwen or Athena not actually "prayer"? Why do you put limits on what is and is not "prayer" based upon who is prayed to?

 

[Hexavibrongal]

Many Christians I know are against even meditating. Who is to say what you feel is not evil power, as mediation leaves you open to all things (in Christian belief).

Some Christians may believe this, but I'm unaware of any scripture to support it. I think this is based more on Christian prejudice against other religions and cultures. If you have scripture to support it, I'd love to see it.

I think prayer is just a kind of meditation. Meditation is a direction of the mind to a specific kind of thought, and in prayer you direct your mind to imagine what it would be like to have a conversation with God. It involves saying things to God and listening, or sometimes it involves repeating something over and over to clear your mind for contact with God, or one of many other varieties of prayer meditation styles. I pray/meditate a few hours a every day, and after a while you just don't have anything to say to God anymore -- I can only clear my mind and listen. This is obviously very similar to some forms of meditation that, in my experience, are compatible with Christian philosophy.

Other forms of meditation like visualizations to acquire power, money, or physical pleasure are probably not compatible with Christian prayer and philosophy. If there's any danger of "evil spirits" in these forms of will-amplifying meditation, then this danger exists in some kinds of improper prayer too, because in both you are doing the same thing with your mind and direction of thought.

 

[Sleeppy]

But, which god is the "Most High God" then? And how would one determine that? Why is prayer to Isis or Cerridwen or Athena not actually "prayer"? Why do you put limits on what is and is not "prayer" based upon who is prayed to?

There's a variety of ways to determine it.

I don't believe those gods to exist. So, I can't communicate with them.

I pray to the One I pray to because He is above all else, and all else He has Power over. He is the One I have most and all faith in, to do what is agreeable to His good and perfect nature, for my sake, according to my asking.

 

[Draka]

There's a variety of ways to determine it.

I don't believe those gods to exist. So, I can't communicate with them.

I pray to the One I pray to because He is above all else, and all else He has Power over. He is the One I have most and all faith in, to do what is agreeable to His good and perfect nature, for my sake, according to my asking.

So, if I don't believe your god exists then would it be fair for me to say you don't actually pray? That it is something else? Maybe magic? Maybe muttering to yourself?

 

[Sleeppy]

So, if I don't believe your god exists then would it be fair for me to say you don't actually pray? That it is something else? Maybe magic? Maybe muttering to yourself?

It's completely up to you. You can form your own ideas. I formed mine.

 

[Me Myself]

In addition, in praying, we focus on the Most High rather than the ritual or the chant...

The ritual or chant is just a way of channeling your will in magic, the will and power of the magician is the most ijmportant, the same way in a christian prayer the faith and intentions of the one praying is the most important

 

[Me Myself]

I don't have a definition for magic.

Prayer- communicating with the Most High God. Might include from many forms of questioning or commentary - such as asking for blessings, or praising, etc.

Only the most high?

Given that Jesus said many times the Father is above him, you clearly cannot pray to Jesus o.0?

 

[Draka]

Only the most high?

Given that Jesus said many times the Father is above him, you clearly cannot pray to Jesus o.0?

What I seem to be getting from Sleeppy is that prayer is dependent upon if it is to the person's perceived "Most High" deity. So in the case of polytheism prayer is only prayer if it is to one major god and not to any minor gods. And that since it seems to be a person to person thing, then there really is no actual definition of prayer to him. Just a personal belief thing of his own. All in all, it makes no sense.

 

[Sleeppy]

Only the most high?

Given that Jesus said many times the Father is above him, you clearly cannot pray to Jesus o.0?

Nobody is to pray to Jesus. He said so Himself. We are to pray to the Father, in His name.

What I seem to be getting from Sleeppy is that prayer is dependent upon if it is to the person's perceived "Most High" deity. So in the case of polytheism prayer is only prayer if it is to one major god and not to any minor gods. And that since it seems to be a person to person thing, then there really is no actual definition of prayer to him. Just a personal belief thing of his own. All in all, it makes no sense.

You've obviously taken offense. Try not to. I wasn't intending to offend you, and don't care to.

There is only one Most High. So I define prayer as only to Him, not to each person's perceived deity. Therefore, it's not a "person to person thing", I do have a very precise definition, and it makes perfect sense you just misunderstand and reject, perhaps because of your offense taken.

 

[Me Myself]

Well, basicaly Sleepy believes his prayer is not magic because he thinks his God is more special than the other ones

Actually, I went to oxford dictionary already, so we can have the common interpretation:

the power of apparently influencing events by using mysterious or supernatural forces

"I truly tell you, if you had faith the size of a grain of mustard you could command the mountain to move, and it would move"

So Faith is clearly the supernatural fuel used in Christian magic.

 

[Sleeppy]

Well, basically Sleeppy believes his prayer is not magic because he thinks his God is more special than the other ones

Actually, I went to oxford dictionary already, so we can have the common interpretation:

the power of apparently influencing events by using mysterious or supernatural forces

"I truly tell you, if you had faith the size of a grain of mustard you could command the mountain to move, and it would move"

So Faith is clearly the supernatural fuel used in Christian magic.

That's mature. Talk right past me.

 

[1137]

I think prayer is just a kind of meditation. Meditation is a direction of the mind to a specific kind of thought, and in prayer you direct your mind to imagine what it would be like to have a conversation with God.

So, once again, you agree that prayer is magick, and that god is just a piece of the ritual. It seems the only problem you are having with that logic is you god's supposed involvement changes everything. However, this thread is based on the fact that prayer works because of psychological aspects, and therefore is magick. You've even confirmed here that prayer is psychological.

 

[Draka]

Nobody is to pray to Jesus. He said so Himself. We are to pray to the Father, in His name.



You've obviously taken offense. Try not to. I wasn't intending to offend you, and don't care to.

There is only one Most High. So I define prayer as only to Him, not to each person's perceived deity. Therefore, it's not a "person to person thing", I do have a very precise definition, and it makes perfect sense you just misunderstand and reject, perhaps because of your offense taken.

Well, I don't know about offense as much as confused by your gall. The way it reads, you seem to think that you "pray", but no one who believes in a different deity than you "prays". The way you present this is that you actually pray because you pray to the "right" god and all others don't pray because they don't pray to the "right" god. This becomes confusing, because one then has to wonder what it is you think everyone else is doing? Not to mention, that if your stance were to hold true, then your praying isn't really praying to someone who believes in a different "right" god. The whole thing doesn't make much sense.

 

[Sleeppy]

Well, I don't know about offense as much as confused by your gall. The way it reads, you seem to think that you "pray", but no one who believes in a different deity than you "prays". The way you present this is that you actually pray because you pray to the "right" god and all others don't pray because they don't pray to the "right" god. This becomes confusing, because one then has to wonder what it is you think everyone else is doing? Not to mention, that if your stance were to hold true, then your praying isn't really praying to someone who believes in a different "right" god. The whole thing doesn't make much sense.

And so you detest my confidence. That's fine. You obviously have your own confidence (or gall) as well.

You're getting agitated over a definition that I made. You obviously have your own. I haven't taken your god(s) away from you. "Pray" to them all you like.

 

[Draka]

And so you detest my confidence. That's fine. You obviously have your own confidence (or gall) as well.

You're getting agitated over a definition that I made. You obviously have your own. I haven't taken your god(s) away from you. "Pray" to them all you like.

You over-estimate my "agitation".

So you do acknowledge that I pray to different gods and goddesses than you? That what I do is prayer?

 

[Sleeppy]

You over-estimate my "agitation".

So you do acknowledge that I pray to different gods and goddesses than you? That what I do is prayer?

What you do is not prayer, according to my definition of it. I'm not claiming to be an authority over you. Define it however you like.

 

[Draka]

What you do is not prayer, according to my definition of it. I'm not claiming to be an authority over you. Define it however you like.

So then, what is it to you? According to your personal invented definition that is.

 

[Sleeppy]

So then, what is it to you? According to your personal invented definition that is.

Why do I need a definition for something that you're doing? It has no relation to me. I haven't claimed authority over you to define your actions and beliefs.

 

[1137]

Alright, I'm playing catch-up here.

Define magic. Then we can determine what fits.. And if we both subscribe to the same definition.

Magick is defined in the OP.

"Magick -the practice of causing change through psychological manipulation, generally that of the self. Ritual, symbolism, chanting, meditation, invocation, etc are all used to influence one's own mind and cause change. Because of this, much studying, practice, and trial is required to find the ritual style, symbolism, etc that best works for a person. It is similar to the placebo affect, however it can be proven to work through brain scans during practice. Nobody denies the power of the mind. With magick, all comes from within."

Well, magic is the use of supernatural forces to change ourselves or our enviroment. Generaly through ritual, and always with an excercise of will, faith or imagination sort to speak.

Absolutely false. Magick has nothing to do with supernatural forces. First of all, supernatural forces do not exist. Only what is natural can exist. Just because we maybe cannot even fathom it does not mean it is above nature. It is the use of psychology to change our lives through symbolism and ritual, same as prayer.

I don't have a definition for magic.

Prayer- communicating with the Most High God. Might include from many forms of questioning or commentary - such as asking for blessings, or praising, etc.

The definition has been provided. The point is that the asking for blessings, praising, etc is the same as the symbolism in magick. It works because it has unrealized psychological affects, not because some god is bestowing blessings.

There's a variety of ways to determine it.

I don't believe those gods to exist. So, I can't communicate with them.

I pray to the One I pray to because He is above all else, and all else He has Power over. He is the One I have most and all faith in, to do what is agreeable to His good and perfect nature, for my sake, according to my asking.

Why call god the "Most High God" if it is the only god? Why not just call him god? The reason is because that title is all part of the symbolism. Same as with magick ritual, you have found what affects you the best psychologically to cause the most change. Otherwise there is absolutely no reason to call the one god that exists the greatest god. The only god is the greatest god.

The ritual or chant is just a way of channeling your will in magic, the will and power of the magician is the most ijmportant, the same way in a christian prayer the faith and intentions of the one praying is the most important

In comparison, yes. The chanting some engage in with magick is equal to the verbal praying in prayer. However, chanting is not necessary for magick. Praying is a specific subtype of magick.

Well, basicaly Sleepy believes his prayer is not magic because he thinks his God is more special than the other ones

I get the feeling also.