Magick and Prayer

[1137]

And so!!!! You made up your own definition. Admit it. Not so hard, right? Don't go hugging on Orais' leg (or Aleister Crowley's)...... Or Donald's.

This makes it much simpler, see? I don't agree with your definition!!! Or line of reasoning. So, not much to argue about.

Take it easy, though. I bought life to your useless thread.

Of course I have my own definition... I believe in individuality and free thought. How I was holding on to them is beyond me (not to mention completely false). I like Orais' summation that magick = influence. If you can find me one idea that is completely without influence be my guest.

Cool, you don't agree with my definition. I couldn't care less. The point is you were trying to pervert my definition, and that is unacceptable.

If you want to call this bringing life to my thread, be my guest. Whatever helps you sleep. Personally I would rather have 2 pages of intelligent conversation than even 50 of nonsense.

 

[Sleeppy]

Of course I have my own definition... I believe in individuality and free thought. How I was holding on to them is beyond me (not to mention completely false). I like Orais' summation that magick = influence. If you can find me one idea that is completely without influence be my guest.

Cool, you don't agree with my definition. I couldn't care less. The point is you were trying to pervert my definition, and that is unacceptable.

If you want to call this bringing life to my thread, be my guest. Whatever helps you sleep. Personally I would rather have 2 pages of intelligent conversation than even 50 of nonsense.

One more thing.. there's no k. He actually defined "magic".

 

[Mister Emu]

Well whatever it is an attempt to do does not matter.

It does in my book, there is a large difference between, say, stabbing someone and cutting a steak even though both use knives.

What matters is what it actually is, which is manifesting change through psychological manipulation using one's gods and symbolism as part of the ritual, whether one accepts such a thing or not.

We'll just have to disagree then, because I don't think what is actually happening in my prayer is an attempt to manifest change through psychological manipulation.

 

[1137]

One more thing.. there's no k. He actually defined "magic".

Cool. I said magick. First of all, it is commonly used to tell the difference between stage magic and ritualistic magick like we are talking about here. Second, since magick is based off of psychology, spelling magick with a k is just more of the symbolism in my practice of magick. Really the spelling doesn't matter. I spell it that way because I want to and it strengthens the affects. Kind of like how you call god "Most High God". Like I said, I personallyvalue individual thought over a hive mind lifestyle.

 

[1137]

We'll just have to disagree then, because I don't think what is actually happening in my prayer is an attempt to manifest change through psychological manipulation.

That is fine with me. Thank you for not putting words in my mouth and perverting what I am saying. Agreeing to disagree is a necessary move in philosophical debate. Nobody will agree on everything haha.

 

[Me Myself]

Magick is defined in the OP.

"Magick -the practice of causing change through psychological manipulation, generally that of the self. Ritual, symbolism, chanting, meditation, invocation, etc are all used to influence one's own mind and cause change. Because of this, much studying, practice, and trial is required to find the ritual style, symbolism, etc that best works for a person. It is similar to the placebo affect, however it can be proven to work through brain scans during practice. Nobody denies the power of the mind. With magick, all comes from within."

I completely missed this and now understand I haven´t been talking about the same thing as the OP stipulates, so I started my own thread.

sorry for the troubles

 

[1137]

I completely missed this and now understand I haven´t been talking about the same thing as the OP stipulates, so I started my own thread.

sorry for the troubles

Haha it's alright.

 

[Orias]

Laughable.

You do know I was responding to the definition already given in the OP?

I'll be polite and leave it at that.

And you do know I was answering your question, "What isn't magic?" right?

Break things down dude, like I did to your post.

You don't agree that magic is like learning because...?

What you just agreed with everything that everyone told you?

And you call him God to emphasize that not only is he God among others like him but that he is God above all else being God because you weren't told this or thought of this at some point in your life time?

Sure, if it is not you doing the manipulating then it is others right?

I guess though caring to understand is different.

 

[Sleeppy]

And you do know I was answering your question, "What isn't magic?" right?

Break things down dude, like I did to your post.

You don't agree that magic is like learning because...?

What you just agreed with everything that everyone told you?

And you call him God to emphasize that not only is he God among others like him but that he is God above all else being God because you weren't told this or thought of this at some point in your life time?

Sure, if it is not you doing the manipulating then it is others right?

I guess though caring to understand is different.

No. "What isn't magick."

I don't know what you're saying. I don't care. Let's just leave it at that.

 

[Orias]

No. "What isn't magick."

Alright I see the argument you sport.


mag·ick(m

j

k)
n. An action or effort undertaken because of a personal need to effect change, especially as associated with Wicca or Wiccan beliefs.


Not much of a difference is there?

I don't know what you're saying. I don't care. Let's just leave it at that.

Don't be so soft.

All you have to do is answer the questions to the best of your ability.

 

[Sleeppy]

Alright I see the argument you sport.


mag·ick(m

j

k)
n. An action or effort undertaken because of a personal need to effect change, especially as associated with Wicca or Wiccan beliefs.


Not much of a difference is there?



Don't be so soft.

All you have to do is answer the questions to the best of your ability.

Yep.. Slow down, killer. No need to get 'hard', with me. That tactic is really overused.

 

[Orias]

Yep.. Slow down, killer. No need to get 'hard', with me. That tactic is really overused.

So is comming into a debate unprepared.

Better luck next time.

 

[Sleeppy]

So is coming into a debate unprepared.

Better luck next time.

There it is again.

 

[1137]

Yep.. Slow down, killer. No need to get 'hard', with me. That tactic is really overused.

There it is again.

Can you please leave my thread if you have absolutely nothing to say.

 

[Iti oj]

sooo where did we leave off? this thread seems to be having difficulty. It started off so strong

 

[1137]

Let's just start over. Maybe we can save this thread and get some intelligent discussion going?

Magick - the practice of causing change through psychological manipulation, generally that of the self. Ritual, symbolism, chanting, meditation, invocation, etc are all used to influence one's own mind and cause change. Because of this, much studying, practice, and trial is required to find the ritual style, symbolism, etc that best works for a person. It is similar to the placebo affect, however it can be proven to work through brain scans during practice. Nobody denies the power of the mind. With magick, all comes from within.

Now, praying is just another way of practicing magick. The symbols include one's god(s), following ritualistic dogma set up by religions, etc. A person who believes in prayer may heal faster if they know they are being prayed for, as it also comes from within.

So, the question is, how can many religious people claim prayer to be good while magick to be evil, when they are one in the same? My own theory is that teaching such a thing forces a person to look externally and ignore internal power. But perhaps there is more to it.

Thoughts?

 

[dawny0826]

Magick - the practice of causing change through psychological manipulation, generally that of the self. Ritual, symbolism, chanting, meditation, invocation, etc are all used to influence one's own mind and cause change. Because of this, much studying, practice, and trial is required to find the ritual style, symbolism, etc that best works for a person. It is similar to the placebo affect, however it can be proven to work through brain scans during practice. Nobody denies the power of the mind. With magick, all comes from within.

Now, praying is just another way of practicing magick. The symbols include one's god(s), following ritualistic dogma set up by religions, etc. A person who believes in prayer may heal faster if they know they are being prayed for, as it also comes from within.

So, the question is, how can many religious people claim prayer to be good while magick to be evil, when they are one in the same? My own theory is that teaching such a thing forces a person to look externally and ignore internal power. But perhaps there is more to it.

Thoughts?

I don't think that magic is evil, unless it's used for such purpose. In the name of Christ, Christians have cast away demons, healed the sick and have done many more things.

I see no difference between this and other "magics". It's the channeling of spiritual energy. This energy can come from a place of good intentions or not.

 

[Iti oj]

I think pray well it could be a form of magic, pray is more meant to be about veneration, praise, thanks, and confession.

 

[jasonwill2]

I was going to quote some people, but after reading through 5 plus pages I gave up. Gone for 4 days and you guys add 10 pages lol.

Supernatural forces exist insofar as they are part of nature. Technically, I do not believe in the supernatural because I am a pantheist. The "super"natural is merely parts of the natural world we do not understand. The only thing "super" about spirits and magic is that they are not bound into matter.

They are energy and forces, they are INTELLIGENT and conscious forces and energies, very much alive, BUT COMPLETELY NATURE. Their workings in merely in a form that we cannot YET study scientifically.

Yahweh is very real, Lucifer is very real, Allah is very real, Buddha is very real, Satan is very real, but all are merely names for conscious forces we do not fully understand.

Magic is according to the Satanic Bible:

"The change in situations or events in accordance with one's will, which would, using normally accepted methods, be unchangeable."

It seems to me that magic is ANYTHING from prayer to invocations to even applied psychology. The fact that this definition includes a part of science, psychology, would indicate that magic is an aspect of the mind that can bring about change.

Now prayer and greater magic changes actual events and more than just your own mind, so it could be inferred that if magic works through minds, these greater forces (gods) are conscious minds! Again, I think gods are very real, but are incorporeal (with the exception of the Universe that is THE god).

Really, it's all a matter of semantics. Magic is magic, no matter what you call it or who you pray to. We use it every day. When we understand it we call it "science", when we do not understand it we call it "magic". The only difference is that we cannot study it because we have not advanced to that point yet.

This is the view of a pantheist. Spiritual and mundane reside in the same Universe. The only difference is that one consists of matter, and the other consists of energy and forces. Keep in mind that matter is 'frozen' energy.

To deny gods is like denying electricity or gravity to me. Gravity and electricity is very real as cab be seen by it's effects, but both forces do not have any direct physical manifestation that we have yet discovered. Electric charges in electrons isn't the electron itself, but rather a property of it so don't bother. Also we havn't seen any gravitons and according to a relativistic model (as opposed to quantum) none would exist so don't attack that either. So my analogy still stands.

 

[Tom Terrific]

Magick - the practice of causing change through psychological manipulation, generally that of the self. Ritual, symbolism, chanting, meditation, invocation, etc are all used to influence one's own mind and cause change. Because of this, much studying, practice, and trial is required to find the ritual style, symbolism, etc that best works for a person. It is similar to the placebo affect, however it can be proven to work through brain scans during practice. Nobody denies the power of the mind. With magick, all comes from within.

Now, praying is just another way of practicing magick. The symbols include one's god(s), following ritualistic dogma set up by religions, etc. A person who believes in prayer may heal faster if they know they are being prayed for, as it also comes from within.

So, the question is, how can many religious people claim prayer to be good while magick to be evil, when they are one in the same? My own theory is that teaching such a thing forces a person to look externally and ignore internal power. But perhaps there is more to it.

Thoughts?

I am a Witch, but a somewhat unorthodox Witch -- by which I mean that I speak for myself and not others who call themselves "Witches." (In other words, if you want an excuse to dismiss what I say, I've given it to you.)

This is a very simplstic notion of magick and prayer. I've heard that Patricia Telesco speaks of magick as "co-creation." I haven't read her on this, but I am in complete agreement. Magick is not about control; it's about entering into a dance with the forces of creation. It's a dance of love.

Most people -- Witches included -- seem to think of magick in terms of manipulation. It is interesting -- to say the least -- to reflect on the fact that this is the very attitude that environmentalists, especially those of a Pagan stripe, find fault with in those who attempt to dominate the Earth, causing pollution and shortages in the necessaries of life. What is the difference between strip mining a mountain or clear cutting a forest and forcing the spirit world to manifest your desires? It's the same thing.

Magick is a dance with the forces of creation. The Witch may lead in this dance, but if she attempts to dominate her partners she has left the path of wisdom and love. LIkewise, prayer is not an attempt to change reality in accordance with the will. Prayer is about communion with the divine. That's it. That's all. If you happen to ask for things, it's not trying to effect change. It's not manipulation. It's asking, like asking your parents as a small child. If you're trying to manipulate reality when you ask your deity for a boon, you've seriously missed the point.

Love your deity, however you conceive of Him or Her. That's the secret. That's all.