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Magick and Prayer

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
That is an interesting take on it. In fact, I do not think I have heard it before. Generally Christians do not accept the practice of magick and mysticism, as they divide the LHP and RHP greatly. I'd say you actually blur the line more than make it obvious. And there is nothing wrong in that. It is just one less thing to divide people, and I have great respect for such revolutionary open mindedness.

You pretty much came here and said "I practice magick, but I don't call it that because I'm christian." Thats what I got.

To whom were u responding?

I was responding to you. You said:
As a result, my prayer has become more and more like an almost Zen-like meditation for me, simply experiencing the presence of God for some time without much thought.

This is still magick, and it is not even prayer according to what I learn from Christian beliefs. It is simply magick through meditation, which seems to be the most popular way. Many Christians I know are against even meditating. Who is to say what you feel is not evil power, as mediation leaves you open to all things (in Christian belief). Magick is magick, and what people call it does not change it. Calling it something else, or thinking of it in a different way, is all part of the symbolism.
 

jasonwill2

Well-Known Member
You quoted Jesus.. And then you go against quite a few of His other sayings (and doings), that can also be quoted.

The Serenity Prayer isn't even His.

People don't realize that these things are so called because they are absent of God. Idolatry vs. God, Miracle vs. Sorcery, etc.

Where do you think the power for these things originates from?

Huh? Oh it's evil because it's not from YOUR god. Ah, ok. Guess the "little children" who were killed was a good act of an all loving god?

[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, san-serif] 2 Kings, 2:23-24. [/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, san-serif]23: And he (Elisha) went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.[/FONT] [FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, san-serif]
24: And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them."
[/FONT]​
Now let's look at what the evil Church of Satan says, shall we?

SATANIC RULE OF THE EARTH #9

9. Do not harm little children.

source:Church of Satan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
So I see it, the things of your god are good, are 'white' magic and miracles/prayers, while things not of him are evil, and are 'black' magic and sorcery.

But if the origins are the only difference, why make the distinction? That's like giving different names to the word "picture" based on if a woman or man drew it. It really doesn't matter as it is just a matter of semantics. It's word play that dances around the real issue that they are identical in how they work and function.

My point may not be the most clear but eventually it was going to come up "prayer is good because its of god witchcraft is bad because its of satan", so I wanted to make my point here before it came
 
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1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
jasonwill2-

So I see it, the things of your god are good, are 'white' magic and miracles/prayers, while things not of him are evil, and are 'black' magic and sorcery.

But if the origins are the only difference, why make the distinction? That's like giving different names to the word "picture" based on if a woman or man drew it. It really doesn't matter as it is just a matter of semantics. It's word play that dances around the real issue that they are identical in how they work and function.

What are you talking about "where it comes from"? It comes from in one's own mind. That is the point. It is also the reason why magick cannot actually be black or white. It simply is magick. We are not using powers of light and darkness to achieve our will, we are doing it ourselves. That is the reason for practicing magick: to get in touch with your Self and your True Will.

I am not sure if that is your point here or not.
 

jasonwill2

Well-Known Member
jasonwill2-



What are you talking about "where it comes from"? It comes from in one's own mind. That is the point. It is also the reason why magick cannot actually be black or white. It simply is magick. We are not using powers of light and darkness to achieve our will, we are doing it ourselves. That is the reason for practicing magick: to get in touch with your Self and your True Will.

I am not sure if that is your point here or not.

The Christians will disagree, and so will I up to a point. Magic is magic, it's not white or black, but they can come from gods or spirits just as much as it can from a man or woman. Spirits/gods, in my book, only survived death because they were powerful magicians. Why wouldn't they be good at magic then?

That is my view on it. If it isn't The Darkness or a handful of gods I've named a couple of times, it was once a flesh and blood magician. Why wouldn't some of these spirits answer the prayers of some of their followers? Perhaps it gives them an ego boost. Look at the Christian god, he's all about his own ego.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Huh? Oh it's evil because it's not from YOUR God. Ah, ok. Guess the "little children" who were killed was a good act of an all loving god?

Now let's look at what the evil Church of Satan says, shall we?

So I see it, the things of your god are good, are 'white' magic and miracles/prayers, while things not of him are evil, and are 'black' magic and sorcery.

But if the origins are the only difference, why make the distinction? That's like giving different names to the word "picture" based on if a woman or man drew it. It really doesn't matter as it is just a matter of semantics. It's word play that dances around the real issue that they are identical in how they work and function.

My point may not be the most clear but eventually it was going to come up "prayer is good because its of god witchcraft is bad because its of satan", so I wanted to make my point here before it came

Answering the bold: Correct!

However, these weren't children. Even so.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Magick - the practice of causing change through psychological manipulation, generally that of the self. Ritual, symbolism, chanting, meditation, invocation, etc are all used to influence one's own mind and cause change. Because of this, much studying, practice, and trial is required to find the ritual style, symbolism, etc that best works for a person. It is similar to the placebo affect, however it can be proven to work through brain scans during practice. Nobody denies the power of the mind. With magick, all comes from within.

Now, praying is just another way of practicing magick. The symbols include one's god(s), following ritualistic dogma set up by religions, etc. A person who believes in prayer may heal faster if they know they are being prayed for, as it also comes from within.

So, the question is, how can many religious people claim prayer to be good while magick to be evil, when they are one in the same? My own theory is that teaching such a thing forces a person to look externally and ignore internal power. But perhaps there is more to it.

Thoughts?

IMO ritual ceremony and invocation seems to point to little difference
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
IMO ritual ceremony and invocation seems to point to little difference

Are you saying they are the same, magick and prayer that is? It is true that both are based around ritual, ceremony, and invocation (in cases / depending on the definition).

The difference arises if the outcome of magick / prayer actually comes from an external source. If prayer truly comes from god, then it is different from magick. However, scientific evidence shows psychological connection to prayer and its outcomes. Many people who pray have brought up to me that this changes the very idea of prayer (as it means it is internal). However, it would only confirm magick, and them being the same.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
I think the main difference is asking for something and wanting something,prayer seems to be cap in hand,ie, you want what you get whereas Magick seems to be to get what you want,other than that ritual and ceremony with the aim to invoke a power to act on on your behalf seems very simmilar.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
So, do we all agree that prayer is a form of magic already? As it has rituals, evocations, asking for supernatural distribution of gifts, etc?
 

Renji

Well-Known Member
I think the main difference is asking for something and wanting something,prayer seems to be cap in hand,ie, you want what you get whereas Magick seems to be to get what you want,other than that ritual and ceremony with the aim to invoke a power to act on on your behalf seems very simmilar.

This...
 

Me Myself

Back to my username

No difference actually.

"Ask and you will be given, seek and you will find, knock and the door will be open"

And furthermore

"With faith the size of a grain of mustard, you could tell the mountain to move and it would move"

"Your faith has healed you"

Many forms of magic use mediator spirits for forces to be moved to the magician´s will. Christian prayer does the same, and uses God/holy spirit/ Jesus as the intermediate spirit.

edit: and if it has not been made clear: "Faith" serves as magic power.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Define magic. Then we can determine what fits.. And if we both subscribe to the same definition.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
Define magic. Then we can determine what fits.. And if we both subscribe to the same definition.

Well, magic is the use of supernatural forces to change ourselves or our enviroment. Generaly through ritual, and always with an excercise of will, faith or imagination sort to speak.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Well, magic is the use of supernatural forces to change ourselves or our enviroment. Generally through ritual, and always with an excercise of will, faith or imagination so to speak.

I don't use that definition.

But, according to it, successful prayer would be magic. As far as interpret it.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
I don't have a definition for magic.

Prayer- communicating with the Most High God. Might include from many forms of questioning or commentary - such as asking for blessings, or praising, etc.
 

Renji

Well-Known Member
Prayer- communicating with the Most High God. Might include from many forms of questioning or commentary - such as asking for blessings, or praising, etc.

I agree with this. Prayer, relies more on faith (it's not a magic power, IMO) rather than the rituals and chants unlike the way I see with magic...
 

Renji

Well-Known Member
In addition, in praying, we focus on the Most High rather than the ritual or the chant...
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
I don't have a definition for magic.

Prayer- communicating with the Most High God. Might include from many forms of questioning or commentary - such as asking for blessings, or praising, etc.

So, what is this "Most High God"? Is prayer to any other god not actually prayer?
 
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