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Make It Compulsory to teach Gen 9:1 to 9:19 In All Abrahamic, Schools, Mosques Synagogues & Church

Tesla

Member
I live in the UK not the USA. In the UK my Great-Grandfather founded Allerton Synagogue
My father too went to the Jewish school and attended all prayers 3 times a day regularly with tephilim etc . I didnt want to do it because when I was 6 I read Gen 9 and found the only writing about God that is acceptable to ALL of Humanity. Didnt know it then of course.
Ergo as per my post I was born an orthodox Jew In the UK ? Well I think it does. Irrelevant anyways.

If you like you are more Jewish than me more holy, closer to God and that really does suit me . You have patronized and insulted me personally, by implying that I am a liar h but that is OK I'm not here to sell myself.
You said this "Please understand that it is offensive when others claim to have this upbringing etc etc . "

...and you diminish my character with your words when we are here to talk about

Make It Compulsory to teach Gen 9:1 to 9:19 In All Abrahamic, Schools, Mosques Synagogues & Church

But just in case you were wrong about my family's Orthodoxy or otherwise you add that I dont know enough/didnt learn hard enough/didn't spend long enough reciting to get anything out of Judaism, another poor guess.

Poor Tesla so in love with the custom and the TRADITION and the stories and the words of the famous rabbis but so immersed in the forest he hasn't realized that the path he walks leads nowhere. Lost like the Qabbalist who only when he puts down all the complex Tetragammaton stuff he reads, only when he walks away from it ....then and only then can he really see it for what it is, a red herring. BTW I bet not all Jews see you as Orthodox even with all your conversions (that was nasty)
Then Tesla said "

No, they have to be orthodox! They have to display that their decision to leave Judaism was based on life-long study of Torah which resulted in undeniable evidence that supports whatever new religious movement they’ve decided to join."

Rubbish, Rubbish Rubbish. Now you are telling me how I should make my own journey when all I was doing was asking you to make Gen 9 more prominent .

And I really like this one " You are the one who inflated your background, not me. I just asked you to answer a very basic question, akin to being like, “Which food is dessert: bread or birthday cake?” You have now shown other Jewish people that you too can tell lies . The clever trap spring loaded question you asked me (and I'll ask perhaps my cousin Rabbi Rosenblatt or perhaps Rabbi Refson Neve Yerushalayim whether or not the question you asked me was basic or not. So dont tell lies.

It was a trick question and no I couldn't answer answer it because I do not care about the subject. By your logic I and indeed everybody reading this forum can'T know God because me and everyone else here couldn't answer a rabbinical question about blessings for bread.

Now I could play your game I could Google you ask you what you are selling. Should we ask you how much you make out of your ministeries. Why not? On the UK forum
here I have been batted all over the place BUT I'm not making any living out of this, don't want to. However to do such a thing to you here in Public to assassinate your character imo would not be fruitful to self nor others so I'll not do it

Finally you say this "The problem here is that you believe that you understand Judaism better than practicing Jews do. Not just orthodoxy, but Judaism as a whole. If you cannot understand my religion, my people, my customs, and my traditions, then where do you come off , trying to step into my shul or my yeshiva (either in person, or through any legislation), and tell my Rabbis and my people that we’re studying Torah incorrectly, and that we have to alter +3500 years of Jewish study and belief to satiate your agenda?"


I do not understand Judaism better than practicing Jews do. After reading your words I thought to myself Genesis 9 cannot be a Jewish text . Noach cannot be a Jewish text . Why? because Tesla differentiated in his words Jew and Gentile whilst God (if God exists) blessed ALL equally Rabbi. Instead of filling your head with tradition and prayer, re-educate yourself. You alienate as many as you care for, in your Jewish Batting orders Club so you are irrelevant as is your opinion to anyone not Jewish
I don't want to know Judaism I don't want to brush up on my Parshot or whatever
Focus your mind on this Rabbi . How is your religion going to solve the mess that it equally with the other Abrahamic faiths have made ? Try Gen 9 Rabbi Or if you wish the rest of ALL those that God blessed to think that you have something more special than anyone else and we all know that you do, then Parshat Noach

I was going to end by saying that Yes The rabbis got it wrong and still do and yes after 3500 we are still slaughtering each other, but then I got that that little prod I always get when I'm winning an argument so I will say only that some Rabbis looked in the wrong places and taught the wrong thing and some looked in the right places and taught the right thing, but anybody at a glance can know what is from God and what is not... because you actually blaspheme when you even lead people into prayer if you want to play clever religious argument games with me.......... How so?
Gen 9:6
Parshat Noach
[9:6] Whoever sheds the blood of a human, by a human shall that person's blood be shed; for in his own image God made humankind. [9:7] And you, be fruitful and multiply, abound on the earth and multiply in it."
I'll spell it out again, only this time I'll write it as I feel it and I am allowed to feel it the same way as anybody else because God just told me I was made like him, in his image, not just in looks Oh no clever clever Rabbi BUT also in values ..so we don't need yours thanks!!
Here we go again ...yep my words, yep MY beliefs and YEP the only way to read it
Gen 9:6

Even if you do the very worst thing you can do, which is to kill someone, I'm not going to punish you, I do not need to ......You were made like me, so please be happy be fruitful (that is to self and others by definition)
But I know you won't get that Tesla you have the journey you have made to date, right into the thicket that is Judaism, when you had such a promising start. No I don't mean that. That would be mean.




Correct. They misinterpreted the Adam and Eve snake story. I have it about right I think, but for now that is off-topic imo:D

Goodness that was quite a rant!

Your whole post serves as a firm reminder to me that I should always check to see if a user has identified their gender on their accounts before I assume that they're male or female.

Good lesson.
 

genesis9

God All_a_us.
OK, so here's a hypothetical. I just read your translation. I disagree with it. I want to teach this same passage but explain it very differently. is that acceptable? I want to go back to the source, in hebrew, and translate it according to what it says, without your mediation. Would that satisfy what you want?
If not, then you should be rethinking what you are asking for. if so, then people will not get the particular message you want them to.

Well it should be acceptable in your land of the free is it? Why is it not? Believe me its pretty close tp the original but so far you havent even come up with a decent argument except that you'd hate to learn something from someone for a mo. You have now failed twice to come up with any interpretation so please until you do ........ send A rabbi that can talk sense as to why they would object so much

What I meant was that debate is not allowed in DIRs. Not allowed by anyone.

Because... DIR locations are like a meeting place of those of like minds, and a sufficiently respectful tone is expected. DIRs are a location set aside from debate locations -- where people may discuss their own beliefs, but not attack that of others. Hostile tones, or threatening type language is just so outside of the "safe space" intention of the DIRs, it is disheartening to me to see it. To me, it's like seeing someone throw a rock at a church, temple, etc. You don't have to agree with other people, but the way I see it, this is the very worst place to actively disagree.

To me, this seems like an attack.

edit: And...the entire thread strikes me as a political matter, where you are really looking for support for your petition -- and I don't think it is a religious matter, so I don't even think the subject belongs in a DIR.

i think you are right about the Politics. i never thought of that ! REre the other matter please mods move this post to where it should be thanks
I should add that it was me who was attacked first ie personally but yes i have been nasty, outnumbered and outflanked but still winning these err debates. I get your point but its time we all started throwing rocks, before it becomes bombs Please see OP and this petition

Nah, I think they know their story better than we do.
That would be like me translating a Chinese history book into English, and then teaching a group of Chinese students about their history. I can only imagine they would snicker and shake their heads.
I'm Jewish and i'm not Jewish re-read the posts

Goodness that was quite a rant!

Your whole post serves as a firm reminder to me that I should always check to see if a user has identified their gender on their accounts before I assume that they're male or female.

Good lesson.
Tesla I have reported you for sexual discrimination. What difference does it make what sex I am and why have you failed to come up with a more socially cohesive or indeed any explanation of gen 9:1, instead implying that your answer might be different if i was a man or a woman. Oh dear
Tesla is a very apt name for you. Brilliant work by Tesla that was halted and shelved, now supposedly used as a weapon of war . I think people should see for themselves how you cam on this forum and attacked me. Yes you are upset that you think your life's work is being undermined , but that is not my intention it could however be a by-product IF you continue to fail to come up with any logical reasons why gen 9 should not be basically written into everything ...........and do you know the really beautiful part....It came from Judaism, Judaisms gift to the world. You should be scrqambling over each other to get this into schools churces and mosques
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Why should the state tell a church, mosque, synagogue, or any other place of worship, what they must teach? I am certain that most Abrahamics, in general, globally even, would be staunchly opposed to this.
 

Tesla

Member
Tesla I have reported you for sexual discrimination. What difference does it make what sex I am and why have you failed to come up with a more socially cohesive or indeed any explanation of gen 9:1, instead implying that your answer might be different if i was a man or a woman. Oh dear Tesla is a very apt name for you. Brilliant work by Tesla that was halted and shelved, now supposedly used as a weapon of war . I think people should see for themselves how you cam on this forum and attacked me. Yes you are upset that you think your life's work is being undermined , but that is not my intention it could however be a by-product IF you continue to fail to come up with any logical reasons why gen 9 should not be basically written into everything ...........and do you know the really beautiful part....It came from Judaism, Judaisms gift to the world. You should be scrqambling over each other to get this into schools churces and mosques


Uh.... I am a female. You were calling me "he" in your rant. Even after I said something, you still didn't think to click on my profile to learn if maybe possibly it was you that made the faux pas. Never even occurred to you.

Just... wow.

"Poor Tesla so in love with the custom and the TRADITION and the stories and the words of the famous rabbis but so immersed in the forest he hasn't realized that the path he walks leads nowhere."

"Noach cannot be a Jewish text . Why? because Tesla differentiated in his words Jew and Gentile whilst God (if God exists) blessed ALL equally Rabbi.Instead of filling your head with tradition and prayer, re-educate yourself."
 

genesis9

God All_a_us.
Uh.... I am a female. You were calling me "he" in your rant. Even after I said something, you still didn't think to click on my profile to learn if maybe possibly it was you that made the faux pas. Never even occurred to you.

Just... wow.


"Poor Tesla so in love with the custom and the TRADITION and the stories and the words of the famous rabbis but so immersed in the forest he hasn't realized that the path he walks leads nowhere."

"Noach cannot be a Jewish text . Why? because Tesla differentiated in his words Jew and Gentile whilst God (if God exists) blessed ALL equally Rabbi.Instead of filling your head with tradition and prayer, re-educate yourself."
So what. I don't check people's profiles because I am not interested in fighting and winning personal battles like you are I am here to get a petition going. Your remark is still sexist even if you were a woman.. I am sure everyone on this forum would agree that referring to Tesla as a HE is fair enough AND note that you still have come up with absolutely no other interpretation of gen 9
if it helps you I will retract the "you are on the wrong path bit " That is not being fruitful to another and in your temple you will do good work and comfort many many lost souls, we know that but NOW right now is the time to stop trying to score points and come up with something that negates the terrible damage twisted interpretations of the world's most beautiful religions is doing,
Sign the petition or work with me to get one going in the USA I haven't had one person as yet destroy my arguments and regardless of whether they are mine or anybody's else's mypetition might just help a young man think twice before picking up an AK47 .

Congratulations! I suppose if we have to teach about a fabricated world wide flood that we also get to teach children about the goblins that will spoil your milk if you leave out mistletoe.
The story is in every culture . its as old as the hills. it obviously contains within it some truth or it would not have been so widely documented. As for whether vampires are real, well like the Flood story they appear in legends in cultures all over the world. But if you read genesis properly you'll find that God wiped them out when he wiped out the nephilim That is a sort of theological joke o_O
 

Tesla

Member
So what. I don't check people's profiles because I am not interested in fighting and winning personal battles like you are I am here to get a petition going. Your remark is still sexist even if you were a woman.. I am sure everyone on this forum would agree that referring to Tesla as a HE is fair enough AND note that you still have come up with absolutely no other interpretation of gen 9
if it helps you I will retract the "you are on the wrong path bit " That is not being fruitful to another and in your temple you will do good work and comfort many many lost souls, we know that but NOW right now is the time to stop trying to score points and come up with something that negates the terrible damage twisted interpretations of the world's most beautiful religions is doing,
Sign the petition or work with me to get one going in the USA I haven't had one person as yet destroy my arguments and regardless of whether they are mine or anybody's else's mypetition might just help a young man think twice before picking up an AK47 .

Phew. I feel much better knowing now that you're willing to retract that statement about how I'm on the wrong track. Thank you.

I decline your offer to interpret Genesis 9 for you. You've clearly made up your mind, and you're moving forward with your legal measure to attempt to force people to learn this. I thank G-d every day that I live in a country that separates church and state, so I have no fear of your bill ever impacting my own life. I doubt very seriously that your bill will be passed in your country either. I would encourage you to change your mode of communication to be more considerate of the cultures and traditions of those who you are trying to reach. You cannot hope to convince others to change without a little diplomacy.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Well it should be acceptable in your land of the free is it? Why is it not? Believe me its pretty close tp the original but so far you havent even come up with a decent argument except that you'd hate to learn something from someone for a mo. You have now failed twice to come up with any interpretation so please until you do ........ send A rabbi that can talk sense as to why they would object so much
You aren't very good at this, are you. My interpretation doesn't matter. The point is that you are pushing YOUR interpretation so ANY interpretation that I come up with which opposes yours would either invalidate your need or be unacceptable. You impute an argument on to me because you don't understand your own central flaw. Let's say I object because your interpretation inserts words and concepts which aren't in the text. So if the text says "if you spill blood, your blood must be spilled" and you turn that into "IF blood need to be spilled it will be at the hands of man, human, not I, God" I don't think your read is right. Can I teach any other one or is yours so "objectively" correct that everyone has to subscribe to that idea?

Your inability to confront the consequences of either answer to this is rather telling.
 

Tesla

Member
Perhaps the congregation has changed since you were a youth, but Allerton is, at least now, an Orthodox congregation.

No, no, no. I said I personally am from a reformed background.

Edit:
Oh, that was addressed to Genesis. Sorry.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
So who would object, not a Christian surely, not a Jew, not a Muslim, not a Secular Humanist, so whom?

Anyone who wouldn't want to see rights and liberty in jeopardy would object to the idea of the government meddling in religious institutions, and vice versa.
 

Aset's Flames

Viperine Asetian
So what. I don't check people's profiles because I am not interested in fighting and winning personal battles like you are I am here to get a petition going. Your remark is still sexist even if you were a woman.. I am sure everyone on this forum would agree that referring to Tesla as a HE is fair enough AND note that you still have come up with absolutely no other interpretation of gen 9
if it helps you I will retract the "you are on the wrong path bit " That is not being fruitful to another and in your temple you will do good work and comfort many many lost souls, we know that but NOW right now is the time to stop trying to score points and come up with something that negates the terrible damage twisted interpretations of the world's most beautiful religions is doing,
Sign the petition or work with me to get one going in the USA I haven't had one person as yet destroy my arguments and regardless of whether they are mine or anybody's else's mypetition might just help a young man think twice before picking up an AK47 .


The story is in every culture . its as old as the hills. it obviously contains within it some truth or it would not have been so widely documented. As for whether vampires are real, well like the Flood story they appear in legends in cultures all over the world. But if you read genesis properly you'll find that God wiped them out when he wiped out the nephilim That is a sort of theological joke o_O

So do you know that was a lie or are you ignorant?

The flood does not appear in every culture.
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
I just found it odd that you call it “Genesis” instead of “Bereishis"..................

I agree with the latter part of your comment regarding the use of the terms "Old Testament" and "New Testament", however it is not uncommon for committed, knowledgeable Jews across the denominational spectrum, especially when writing for, or speaking to, a mixed audience to use the terminology familiar to the most people. To be fair, the OP was not directing his post solely to Jews and I would give him a pass on this one.
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
I don't know any other word for it, sorry. Reformed Judaism is what I've always known it by.

Saying "reformed" is like saying "orthodoxed" or "conservatived."

It is Reform Judaism. I've known Jews outside the movement, and non-Jews, who have referred to it as "Reformed", but I've never before met someone brought up within Reform who has added the "ed." I guess now I have.

And since I have not previously done so - Welcome to the forum.
 
Last edited:

Tesla

Member
Saying "reformed" is like saying "orthodoxed" or "conservatived."

It is Reform Judaism. I've known Jews outside the movement, and non-Jews, who have referred to it as "Reformed", but I've never before met someone brought up within Reform who has added the "ed." I guess now I have.

And since I have not previously done so - Welcome to the forum.

Thanks for the welcome.

I couldn't resist, so I just called my mom and I asked her to state the denomination of Judaism that our family is. She said, "Reformed." I don't know why, but maybe it's because Judaism had previously experienced a reformation that she now calls it "Reformed". Perhaps it's time to update our vocabulary. I appreciate the feedback. :)
 

4consideration

*
Premium Member
i think you are right about the Politics. i never thought of that ! REre the other matter please mods move this post to where it should be thanks
I should add that it was me who was attacked first ie personally but yes i have been nasty, outnumbered and outflanked but still winning the

se err debates. I get your point but its time we all started throwing rocks, before it becomes bombs Please see OP and this petition
If you'd like to request the mods to move your thread, there are two ways. One is to use the report button (the OP would be a good post to use for a request to move the thread.) That's probably the easiest thing in this situation. The other option is to create a thread in Site Feedback. That starts a conversation between you and the staff. Other members can't see your Site Feedback thread.

It is possible that just announcing a request in a thread could get attention, but I wouldn't rely on that, since that's not how it works here.

I see you're intent on debating, and throwing rocks. I can't stop you. But...I have no intention of participating in it with you, nor in signing your petition, nor in trying to get a similar thing started in the US. I don't see any value in what it looks to me like you are doing.
 

genesis9

God All_a_us.
Phew. I feel much better knowing now that you're willing to retract that statement about how I'm on the wrong track. Thank you.

I decline your offer to interpret Genesis 9 for you. You've clearly made up your mind, and you're moving forward with your legal measure to attempt to force people to learn this. I thank G-d every day that I live in a country that separates church and state, so I have no fear of your bill ever impacting my own life. I doubt very seriously that your bill will be passed in your country either. I would encourage you to change your mode of communication to be more considerate of the cultures and traditions of those who you are trying to reach. You cannot hope to convince others to change without a little diplomacy.

Its a legal measure to get the teachers to teach it. Its a jewish/Christian/Muslim and Secular teaching. Hindus and Sikhs have little ground to object and of course it is easy to make provision to exclude certain religions and atheists if so wished. I mean it isn't impossible is it ?

As for Muslims I am sure practising Muslims would not refuse to allow their children to learn it,provided that they and all interested groups could input into how exactly the measure would be carried out

You aren't very good at this, are you. My interpretation doesn't matter. The point is that you are pushing YOUR interpretation so ANY interpretation that I come up with which opposes yours would either invalidate your need or be unacceptable. You impute an argument on to me because you don't understand your own central flaw. Let's say I object because your interpretation inserts words and concepts which aren't in the text. So if the text says "if you spill blood, your blood must be spilled" and you turn that into "IF blood need to be spilled it will be at the hands of man, human, not I, God" I don't think your read is right. Can I teach any other one or is yours so "objectively" correct that everyone has to subscribe to that idea?

Your inability to confront the consequences of either answer to this is rather telling.

Teach what you like, I am not teaching I am showing. Again third and last time , you show me what the text means FYI teach and show are not the same but I'm trying to get a petition going here. if you think I think I am some sort of super-rabbi you are just wrong. I am genuinely frightened for my many children and here in the UK we don't have a big pond. I've studied this for 50 years. Doesn't mean I am right and I have kept my mouth shut for many many years. Now I feel I must speak. The feeling isn't a voice in my head, its me crying for my little son who may one day be at the wrong end of a gun, if we last that long. Not just my son, any child. So it is a petition. One needs to be set up in the USA too and I know just the man!


Perhaps the congregation has changed since you were a youth, but Allerton is, at least now, an Orthodox congregation.

Rabbi, I was sure it was and I was but Tesla told me it wasn't and that i wasn't fit to say i was born into an Orthodox Community and let me say Allerton Shul, co-founded by my Grandfather gave me a beautiful introduction to Judaism as did Rabbis Rogosnitsky in Yeshiva , the most wonderful Rabbi Malcolm Malitz, lovely Rabbi Stanley Cohen, patient Rabbi Cedric Cohen, and many others,.


Anyone who wouldn't want to see rights and liberty in jeopardy would object to the idea of the government meddling in religious institutions, and vice versa.
Its a secular verse too ie rainbows/animals/kids/Gods Blessing to all



I agree with the latter part of your comment regarding the use of the terms "Old Testament" and "New Testament", however it is not uncommon for committed, knowledgeable Jews across the denominational spectrum, especially when writing for, or speaking to, a mixed audience to use the terminology familiar to the most people. To be fair, the OP was not directing his post solely to Jews and I would give him a pass on this one.

Saying "reformed" is like saying "orthodoxed" or "conservatived."

It is Reform Judaism. I've known Jews outside the movement, and non-Jews, who have referred to it as "Reformed", but I've never before met someone brought up within Reform who has added the "ed." I guess now I have.

And since I have not previously done so - Welcome to the forum.
........or Teslaed. No sorry doesn't work!
 
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