Make It Compulsory to teach Gen 9:1 to 9:19 In All Abrahamic, Schools, Mosques Synagogues & Church

[genesis9]

This.

Curious @genesis9 - I notice that you ''label'' yourself as ''close to secular humanism.'' Why then do you believe that it should be compulsory for secular schools to teach Genesis? Just wondering.

I said close to.. I believe in a non-interfering Univrsal Creator of some type. . I believe Genesis 9 is an echo of a much older philosphy/belief system and it has a message to all of us (its not the oldest eg Gilgamesh) but it is the oldest, most relevant to the situaion we are faced with today. It has a message that Judaism, Christianity and Islam along with all the Rabbis, Priests Imams, Atheists and other groups have obscured, over and over again. Later writing on Moses teaches an echo of it as does Jesus and Mohammed. But the quiet small message is lost.
This message speaks to me in a quiet voice over the hubbub of useless inter-faith dialogue that has gone on for 1000 years plus and will continue do do so . These faiths only have one common ground Gen 9 which any humanist can read agree with and know what it really means............The small voice speaks to me and you and everyone, without exception and without favouritism. This voice says simply "Be fruitful and multiply. No orders/commands/dictats/shall nots/ rules on dress code/. Its important for what Gen 9 does NOT say .

 

[rosends]

So you see vegetarianism as contradicted by your Universal Creator's edict and all people should be taught from a young age that "every moving thing that lives shall be food for you." Also, all children should be taught that if one spills human blood, his blood must be spilled by other men (verse 6). Also, you think that all people must be taught that their purpose in life is to fill up the planet with people. Someone who chooses to have no children, or the family which stops after a kid or two is wrong according to this essential teaching which you decided is what all people have in common. And, of course, you want all people to be taught to have faith in this supernatural creator, so to be an atheist is improper. All schools must teach that.

I don't think that this is what people should be taught. I think that a random person has the right to be a vegetarian, not have kids, and have a trial, not having his blood shed, if he accidentally causes another person to bleed.

 

[Flankerl]

This thread hurts so much.

It actually implies that Jews don't learn about the 9th chapter of their holy book.


And what's even worse: "Born orthodox Jew"

 

[Brickjectivity]

The trouble is I don't think the world is going to last that long in its current state. Its the young adults of today who are the real issue.

Hi genesis9. I like the idea of adding your suggested practice to the routine of religious schools, although I think most governments do not have the authority to implement it. I think it is something to suggest to the leadership of schools directly. I believe that you could petition each religious school to adopt this practice that you have described, but you could not successfully petition many governments to enforce it. I think petitioning schools could be worthwhile and also generating notoriety and public discussion about it. For example you could publish an open letter to the Christian schools, could take out advertisements and call them out. I think that you should research each institution first. For example if you are going to address Islamic private schools then you should speak with people who are familiar with those institutions about how to approach them and so forth.

Currently what they do in Christian schools every morning is to pledge allegiance to the US flag and also the Christian flag. For the Christian flag they recite "I pledge allegiance to the Christian flag and to the saviour for whose kingdom it stands: one saviour crucified, risen and coming again with life and liberty for all who believe." For the American Flag they recite the typical pledge including the phrase 'One nation under God'. You could suggest that they include something about Genesis 9.

I think you could not successfully petition secular schools to adopt your idea. They are not permitted to teach religion, and that is how your idea would be perceived. If they adopted teaching that bit from Genesis chapter 9 they would be under threat of litigation, loss of funding and possible criminal charges.

There is a certain panicky feeling I get about the world, too when I think about how fragile it is. I do expect some more cataclysms, some wars and many deaths. I think some people will survive. I don't know who is going to survive and who is not; but I think culture is not going to die. I agree there is reason for concern, and we are seeing new technological revolutions on their way. There is a manufacturing revolution, and AI revolution, health changes, improvements in the food supply, new continents coming online, global warming (possibly), and many things can happen. A super volcano can erupt and so forth.

 

[genesis9]

So you see vegetarianism as contradicted by your Universal Creator's edict and all people should be taught from a young age that "every moving thing that lives shall be food for you." Also, all children should be taught that if one spills human blood, his blood must be spilled by other men (verse 6). Also, you think that all people must be taught that their purpose in life is to fill up the planet with people. Someone who chooses to have no children, or the family which stops after a kid or two is wrong according to this essential teaching which you decided is what all people have in common. And, of course, you want all people to be taught to have faith in this supernatural creator, so to be an atheist is improper. All schools must teach that.

I don't think that this is what people should be taught. I think that a random person has the right to be a vegetarian, not have kids, and have a trial, not having his blood shed, if he accidentally causes another person to bleed.

You can be vegetarian , you can eat what will , you can eat the animals if you wish, you can do pretty much as you will . I note you are Jewish, so if you are going to start with the take every word literally you are going to come a cropper pretty soon. Its the essence of the chapters that we must teach the children. Sure its a parsha but so what. One week later it is forgotten, but it is the only socially cohesive verse in either testamanet that is also acceptable to secular humanists, because God implies God isn't here.
Re verse 6
6. Whoever sheds the blood of man through man shall his blood be shed, for in the image of God He made man. ו . שֹׁפֵךְדַּםהָאָדָםבָּאָדָםדָּמוֹיִשָּׁפֵךְכִּיבְּצֶלֶםאֱלֹהִיםעָשָׂהאֶתהָאָדָם :
Read it this way Whoever sheds the blood of man through MAN shall his blood be shed, for in the image of God He made man, then tie that in with the Covenant ie God promises never to destroy humanity again . Sure the word mayim waters is used but please please if you like Hillel expects us to accept that God was only talking about actual water you are misguided. The word "waters" imo is an scribe being expeditious, after all he could have done a list, drought, famine, plague, spiders, some snakes. earthquakes, volcanoes, david icke, meteors, flaming fire, but the word water was used because that was what had just been experienced. How do I know this? How do I know God's intention message was twisted even then, as it always is? Because the essence of God you and I fe;ly at Cheder when we were 5 disappears after Gen9:19 You don't look at the word meanings like silly qabbalists UNLESS it is the word of God speaking equally to all. If that is not the case you are listening to the words of some ancient tribal leader
You have interpreted the words as I have ad yet my interpretation is true to Gen 9:1 and Gen 9:7 etc and yours is not. Neither does your definition add to social cohesion in any way, nor is it any message that makes sense and yet your saying it on Saturday (or was it last Sat) Sign my petition or help me srat one wherever you are. At the end of every one of your shul services get it read out, and at school at RE.

This thread hurts so much.

It actually implies that Jews don't learn about the 9th chapter of their holy book.


And what's even worse: "Born orthodox Jew"

It implies nothing of the sort. It is lost within the 50 or of other chapters that come afterwards and therefore it is emphasized one Saturday a year and quickly forgotten.

Hi genesis9. I like the idea of adding your suggested practice to the routine of religious schools, although I think most governments do not have the authority to implement it. I think it is something to suggest to the leadership of schools directly. I believe that you could petition each religious school to adopt this practice that you have described, but you could not successfully petition many governments to enforce it. I think petitioning schools could be worthwhile and also generating notoriety and public discussion about it. For example you could publish an open letter to the Christian schools, could take out advertisements and call them out. I think that you should research each institution first. For example if you are going to address Islamic private schools then you should speak with people who are familiar with those institutions about how to approach them and so forth.

Currently what they do in Christian schools every morning is to pledge allegiance to the US flag and also the Christian flag. For the Christian flag they recite "I pledge allegiance to the Christian flag and to the saviour for whose kingdom it stands: one saviour crucified, risen and coming again with life and liberty for all who believe." For the American Flag they recite the typical pledge including the phrase 'One nation under God'. You could suggest that they include something about Genesis 9.

I think you could not successfully petition secular schools to adopt your idea. They are not permitted to teach religion, and that is how your idea would be perceived. If they adopted teaching that bit from Genesis chapter 9 they would be under threat of litigation, loss of funding and possible criminal charges.

There is a certain panicky feeling I get about the world, too when I think about how fragile it is. I do expect some more cataclysms, some wars and many deaths. I think some people will survive. I don't know who is going to survive and who is not; but I think culture is not going to die. I agree there is reason for concern, and we are seeing new technological revolutions on their way. There is a manufacturing revolution, and AI revolution, health changes, improvements in the food supply, new continents coming online, global warming (possibly), and many things can happen. A super volcano can erupt and so forth.

Thank you for your sensible advice. Its a bit different over in the UK/EU ie re school systems but I will be looking for someone in the USA to help do the same thing. I think you are right to be worried about the state of the world. Putin has his own agenda and when he pulls out, we will still be left with a situation that possibly only a nuke(God forbid) might solve , but I'm no military man. I know the kids who are 6-10 say are going to put all divisive religions into the bin when they get into power in say 40 years time, but I'm not sure if we'll have anything left by then
In the meantime think like this. if any church, shul, mosque or school refuses to teach gen 9:1 at the end of their service RE class etc I and the Security Services might well want to know why. It seconds as a great smoke em out tool.

 

[Flankerl]

It implies nothing of the sort. It is lost within the 50 or of other chapters that come afterwards and therefore it is emphasised one saturday a year and quickly forgotten.

Ah where has the facepalm smiley gone...

 

[rosends]

You can be vegetarian , you can eat what will , you can eat the animals if you wish, you can do pretty much as you will . I note you are Jewish, so if you are going to start with the take every word literally you are going to come a cropper pretty soon. Its the essence of the chapters that we must teach the children. Sure its a parsha but so what. One week later it is forgotten, but it is the only socially cohesive verse in either testamanet that is also acceptable to secular humanists, because God implies God isn't here.
Re verse 6
6. Whoever sheds the blood of man through man shall his blood be shed, for in the image of God He made man. ו . שֹׁפֵךְדַּםהָאָדָםבָּאָדָםדָּמוֹיִשָּׁפֵךְכִּיבְּצֶלֶםאֱלֹהִיםעָשָׂהאֶתהָאָדָם :
Read it this way Whoever sheds the blood of man through MAN shall his blood be shed, for in the image of God He made man, then tie that in with the Covenant ie God promises never to destroy humanity again . Sure the word mayim waters is used but please please if you like Hillel expects us to accept that God was only talking about actual water you are misguided. The word "waters" imo is an scribe being expeditious, after all he could have done a list, drought, famine, plague, spiders, some snakes. earthquakes, volcanoes, david icke, meteors, flaming fire, but the word water was used because that was what had just been experienced. How do I know this? How do I know God's intention message was twisted even then, as it always is? Because the essence of God you and I fe;ly at Cheder when we were 5 disappears after Gen9:19 You don't look at the word meanings like silly qabbalists UNLESS it is the word of God speaking equally to all. If that is not the case you are listening to the words of some ancient tribal leader
You have interpreted the words as I have ad yet my interpretation is true to Gen 9:1 and Gen 9:7 etc and yours is not. Neither does your definition add to social cohesion in any way, nor is it any message that makes sense and yet your saying it on Saturday (or was it last Sat) Sign my petition or help me srat one wherever you are. At the end of every one of your shul services get it read out, and at school at RE.

So you want this section taught according to your interpretation. Got it.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Thank you for your sensible advice. Its a bit different over in the UK/EU ie re school systems but I will be looking for someone in the USA to help do the same thing. I think you are right to be worried about the state of the world. Putin has hois own agenda and when he pulls out, we will still be left with a situation that possibly only a nuke(God forbid) might solve , but I'm no military man. I know the kids who are 6-10 say are going to put all divisive religions into the bin when they get into power in say 40 years time, but I'm not sure if we'll have anything left by then
In the meantime think like this. if any church, shul, mosque or school refuses to taech gen 9:1 at the end of their servce RE class etc I and the Security Services might well want to know why. It seconds as a great smoke em out tool.

Things aren't that bad. Actually they are improving due to peaceful methods and lots of patience. I wouldn't trust forcing opinions. It never works for very long.

 

[metis]

So change the law.

Why should our laws be changed to fit your standards?

BTW, what would you say if a teacher who was an atheist quoted Genesis 9 and then went and gave their opinion on how it is all just a bunch of superstition and meaningless dribble?

 

[genesis9]

Ah where has the facepalm smiley gone...

So you want this section taught according to your interpretation. Got it.

You got it as opposed to a bunch old crusty old 15th/16th century silly old men. But I got your interpretation Keep well away from shul my friend you are no Jew.

Why should our laws be changed to fit your standards?

BTW, what would you say if a teacher who was an atheist quoted Genesis 9 and then went and gave their opinion on how it is all just a bunch of superstition and meaningless dribble?

I'd say good on you mate but at least we agree that even thispretend God made sure everyone was equally blessed so no Mahmud/Moshe, you are NOT any beter than anyone else and YES Peter and Pau being fruitful doesnt just mean to self, it has to include others or else you will make enemies and that wouldnt be fruitful etc etc And if we dont want our kids to believe in God well neither do I

 

[columbus]

You got it as opposed to a bunch old crusty old 15th/16th century silly old men.

Here is the part you are not getting.
Kids need school. They deserve education. This must be done, regardless of the parents religious beliefs.
But if the curriculum is not restrained to math and geography and language and such, there's going to be a big problem. Not all parents agree with you about anything in the way of religion. You have no right to teach their kids which scriptures are important and what those scriptures mean. Nobody does.
If the parents want their child taught religious beliefs there is a plethora of options available to them. But as soon as you win the right to teach other people's children religion and morals, you can bet a million other people will, justifiably, demand the same access to the children.
That won't happen in the USA.
There have already been numerous attempts to push religion on secular, government run, schools and they usually fail. Because even the religious parents don't want somebody else in charge of religious education.
Tom

 

[rosends]

You got it as opposed to a bunch old crusty old 15th/16th century silly old men. But I got your interpretation Keep well away from shul my friend you are no Jew.

You have no idea what my interpretation is. All I quoted was the literal statement of the text which you either have to accept or mitigate through your own personal reading. You chose the latter. So you want every school and house of worship to subscribe not just to a theistic perspective but to your particular interpretation. You have decided that you are the world's mediator between god and man. That is incredibly arrogant.

 

[Tesla]

As i am , but actualy Christianity has been true to Old testament text

In my entire life, I have never heard a single self-respecting Jew refer to it as the "old testament". This is doubly true of anyone with even a sliver of authentic "orthodox" background.

 

[metis]

You got it as opposed to a bunch old crusty old 15th/16th century silly old men. But I got your interpretation Keep well away from shul my friend you are no Jew.





I'd say good on you mate but at least we agree that even thispretend God made sure everyone was equally blessed so no Mahmud/Moshe, you are NOT any beter than anyone else and YES Peter and Pau being fruitful doesnt just mean to self, it has to include others or else you will make enemies and that wouldnt be fruitful etc etc And if we dont want our kids to believe in God well neither do I

First of all, rosends is Jewish and, secondly, you have no clue what you're talking about. I can't even figure out what you're trying to say or prove.

 

[genesis9]

You have no idea what my interpretation is. All I quoted was the literal statement of the text which you either have to accept or mitigate through your own personal reading. You chose the latter. So you want every school and house of worship to subscribe not just to a theistic perspective but to your particular interpretation. You have decided that you are the world's mediator between god and man. That is incredibly arrogant.

So what is your interpretation please? and you quoted your interpretation of the literal statement of the text, so you either can't think straight or you are being disingenuous I am not interested and will not respond to personal remarks eg arrogant If you think I am that's your ignorance

In my entire life, I have never heard a single self-respecting Jew refer to it as the "old testament". This is doubly true of anyone with even a sliver of authentic "orthodox" background.

Then the Jew you talk about is neither self-respecting nor does he/she walk with God
Read Gen 9 again

First of all, rosends is Jewish and, secondly, you have no clue what you're talking about. I can't even figure out what you're trying to say or prove.

I know he is Jewish, it says so on his avatar thingy. So was I I said to him basically that he would rather follow the interpretations of some crusty old Rabbis (I said men so as not to inflame) 300 years than use his own interpretations or perhaps mine.

 

[genesis9]

This petition had now been sent to The EU The link is

https://www.change.org/p/any-high-official-who-grasps-anyone-who-sees-these-socially-cohesive-verses-appeal-equally-to-jew-christian-muslim-amp-secul-make-it-eu-law-that-gen-9-1-9-19-is-a-part-of-all-school-re-amp-all-religious-services

 

[Tesla]

So what is your interpretation please? and you quoted your interpretation of the literal statement of the text, so you either can't think straight or you are being disingenuous I am not interested and will not respond to personal remarks eg arrogant If you think I am that's your ignorance

Then the Jew you talk about is neither self-respecting nor does he/she walk with God
Read Gen 9 again

I know he is Jewish, it says so on his avatar thingy. So was I I said to him basically that he would rather follow the interpretations of some crusty old Rabbis (I said men so as not to inflame) 300 years than use his own interpretations or perhaps mine.

Are you a messianic?

Okay, pop quiz! What is the proper brocha for a little piece of bread for which Challah has not been taken? If Challah is taken, what is the proper procedure if you do not have access to a wash cup?

 

[genesis9]

Here is the part you are not getting.
Kids need school. They deserve education. This must be done, regardless of the parents religious beliefs.
But if the curriculum is not restrained to math and geography and language and such, there's going to be a big problem. Not all parents agree with you about anything in the way of religion. You have no right to teach their kids which scriptures are important and what those scriptures mean. Nobody does.
If the parents want their child taught religious beliefs there is a plethora of options available to them. But as soon as you win the right to teach other people's children religion and morals, you can bet a million other people will, justifiably, demand the same access to the children.
That won't happen in the USA.
There have already been numerous attempts to push religion on secular, government run, schools and they usually fail. Because even the religious parents don't want somebody else in charge of religious education.
Tom

..and here is the part you are not getting its not religious teaching!!!! Its a socially cohesive text that just so happens to be in our oldest relevant known text, which so happens to be a religious book. So what? Who's mentioning Jews or Christians? Do you want your kids to grow up in fear that God will punish them? Well then read Gen 9:6
[9:6] Whoever sheds the blood of a human, by a human shall that person's blood be shed; for in his own image God made humankind.
BY A H_U_M_A-N shall that person's etc etc ie there is no God here that punishes us even for the greatest of crimes,. that is up to us So for the final time it is not a religious teaching it is a beautiful socially cohesive chapter, stuck in a religious book. Its is jointly owned by Jew, Christian and Muslim and loved by secularists. I am saying take it out of the book and teach it in the classes and places of worship. I am sure Sikhs and Hindus would have no objection, and if they did I'm sure issues can be sorted

 

[genesis9]

Are you a messianic?

Okay, pop quiz! What is the proper brocha for a little piece of bread for which Challah has not been taken? If Challah is taken, what is the proper procedure if you do not have access to a wash cup?

I can't remember Last time I said "hagofen or "ha-adamah) was when I was 12 I am 55 now. I guess that proves I'm not an Orthodox Jew then. Always hated the 18th C custom But in Chumash study I am an expert

Don't pop quiz me on stuff that is of no interest to anyone . Pop quiz me on how the Jewish people themselves hold the very key to the safety of the whole human race;. Jewish People really ARE the chosen ones... Chosen first to reject any religion that teaches any one person that they are better than their brother in any way. The Torah IS the chosen book that holds the answers not to this war we fight now, but for our kids. Chochum

as for what I am Well here is the road Jew > Taoist >Buddhist >falun Gong >Born Again Christian >messianic Jew > Secular Humanist
But the God has always been the same on this fifty year journey
Now sign my petition or tell me how to get one going in the USA

 

[Tesla]

I can't remember Last time I said "hagofen or "ha-adamah) was when I was 12 I am 55 now. I guess that proves I'm not an Orthodox Jew then. Always hated the 18th C custom But in Chumash study I am an expert

Don't pop quiz me on stuff that is of no interest to anyone . Pop quiz me on how the Jewish people themselves hold the very key to the safety of the whole human race;. Jewish People really ARE the chosen ones... Chosen first to reject any religion that teaches any one person that they are better than their brother in any way. The Torah IS the chosen book that holds the answers not to this war we fight now, but for our kids. Chochum

as for what I am Well here is the road Jew > Taoist >Buddhist >falun Gong >Born Again Christian >messianic Jew > Secular Humanist
But the God has always been the same on this fifty year journey
Now sign my petition or tell me how to get one going in the USA

I quizzed you because you made a statement that you have an orthodox background, and yet your mode of speech (or typing) is so far from orthodox mannerisms. It begs the question about just how orthodox your orthodox background was.

There is, after all, a very well-known problem within Judaism of people with little or no Jewish education joining offshoot movements, such as Messianic Judaism, and claiming orthodox heritage as a means of bolstering themselves in the Jewish pecking order. By doing this, they think they’re reinforcing the credentials of the movement they’ve joined, and their own reasoning for joining that movement.

I’m certainly not saying that this is what you are doing; I don’t know you. I just found it odd that you call it “Genesis” instead of “Bereishis" and you called it “old testament” instead of Tanach. I found it odd that you used the Christian style numbering system instead of the more traditional Jewish way of identifying a section by naming the parsha and then giving the pasuk.

And just in case you were curious:

Hagofen is for wine.

Ha-Adomah is for vegetables and fruits from the ground. –like a potato.

Mezonos is used for breads that have not had Challah taken. –like cake.

Challah without a wash cup can be wrapped in paper or foil so as not to be touched with your hands.