Make It Compulsory to teach Gen 9:1 to 9:19 In All Abrahamic, Schools, Mosques Synagogues & Church

[genesis9]

I would object to the above being taught in any public school setting as it is nothing but an attempt to jam specific religious teachings down the throats of children. With the Flood narrative, there are various way that it can be interpreted and applied. Children hearing that narrative are likely to ask questions, thus putting the instructor on the spot whereas (s)he would either have to bow out of the conversation, give his/her interpretations, or be theologically affluent enough to go through various ways it can be interpreted.

Jam what?

No, it's best to leave the churches, synagogues, and mosques do their job on such matters and leave the public schools alone with their own religious education.

Noit isn't not in this climate

So, the Chief Rabbis magically speak for all Jews? Get real.

No he does not

Here is the bottom line.
Schools only have limited time and resources. If they manage to teach the basics they're doing well.
Language and math and geography and science and history and literature and civics and basic skills, coupled with the joy of learning and critical thinking and a modicum of discipline and socialization.
The schools already have a huge task. Adding to that task, like expecting them to teach @genesis9 morals and interpretation of scriptures is not at all feasible.
Tom

Oh really...well we haven't been doing and look what is happening now in IS

 

[genesis9]

Basically it one only take one person to file suit, and then it is the Supreme Court that would then rule based on what's in the Constitution, and that can be found in the 1st Amendment's "Establishment Clause". U.S. law works somewhat differently than U.K. law on matters such as this.

So change the law.

Yes, it is my verse to interpret. Your religious background doesn't give you any special rights to teach other people's children your interpretation.
This is a good illustration of yet another reason to avoid teaching religion in secular schools. You believe that your understanding of scripture is superior to mine. Someone who has another one might well think that theirs is superior to yours. You might justifiably object to a teacher using another interpretation for your child's "compulsory education".
The only way to avoid religious people messing up the school system is to leave religion out of the curriculum.
Tom

 

[genesis9]

So change the law.

You are of course quite right but you show me your interpretaion of Gen 9:1 for example or gen 9:7 What does that mean to you then?

 

[genesis9]

This is a pretty good illustration of why I would object to it being compulsory education in secular schools.
That is not the way I would interpret the verse. You and whatever religious institutions are free to interpret it any way you want. But forcing kids to learn your interpretation is not gonna fly. If parents want their children taught about religion that is fine. There are plenty of opportunities.

Frankly I wish basic Bible literacy could be taught in schools. Even religious kids often grow up remarkably ignorant to one of the most fundamental works in the western world. But it can't be done for an assortment of reasons.
Tom

You are of course quite right but you show me your interpretation of Gen 9:1 for example or gen 9:7 What does that mean to you then?

Here is the bottom line.
Schools only have limited time and resources. If they manage to teach the basics they're doing well.
Language and math and geography and science and history and literature and civics and basic skills, coupled with the joy of learning and critical thinking and a modicum of discipline and socialization.
The schools already have a huge task. Adding to that task, like expecting them to teach @genesis9 morals and interpretation of scriptures is not at all feasible.
Tom

Find the resources andf get it taught in Mosques Curches Synagogues at the end of every services

Again it IS the only verse on which all semitic religions would not oject to and neither would any secular humanist

 

[columbus]

Oh really...well we haven't been doing and look what is happening now in IS

I see the problem there as the compulsory education of Muslims by hard core religious people. Which is what you are advocating. You think your religious interpretations are the best ones, so do the mullahs.
I say leave the kids alone, unless you are their parents.
Tom

 

[columbus]

You are of course quite right but you show me your interpretation of Gen 9:1 for example or gen 9:7 What does that mean to you then?

What you don't seem to grasp is that what I'm objecting to is compulsory religious education. Period. Once you give that concept the OK there is no end to the madness.
Tom

 

[YmirGF]

So..... we are asked to sign a petition telling various religious groups what they should be teaching? You don't see any problems with the state imposing its will on religious groups? Like, seriously, what could go wrong with that notion?

 

[genesis9]

What you don't seem to grasp is that what I'm objecting to is compulsory religious education. Period. Once you give that concept the OK there is no end to the madness.
Tom

I do get it, I really do but this is not compulsory religious education, Gen 9:1- 9:19 actually shows quite clearly that God is secular, but quite nicely the same passage delights Christians jews and would you credit uslims. It is the only cohesive chapter in the Bible and it is also secular

So..... we are asked to sign a petition telling various religious groups what they should be teaching? You don't see any problems with the state imposing its will on religious groups? Like, seriously, what could go wrong with that notion?

I am not asking the State to impose its will on religious groups I am asking the State to impose on religious group the only teaching that they all agree on, to be repeated at the end of every religious service and RE class in school

 

[YmirGF]

I am not asking the State to impose its will on religious groups I am asking the State to impose on religious group the only teaching that they all agree on, to be repeated at the end of every religious service and RE class in school

States imposing a giving thing is still an imposition regardless of what that imposition is. There must always be a division of church and state, period.

 

[genesis9]

This is interesting I wrote a book, its free , It takes you to an interview scene where a CEP counter extremist pro is trying to deprogramme a potentially brainwashed Muslim. We are not interested in the scenario here I'm an amateur . BUT the theology is inarguable ... Please try to get the arguments used.

 

[genesis9]

Berei**** - Genesis - Chapter 9

1. And God blessed Noah and his sons, and He said to them: "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. 2. And your fear and your dread shall be upon all the beasts of the earth and upon all the fowl of the heaven; upon everything that creeps upon the ground and upon all the fish of the sea, [for] they have been given into your hand. :3. Every moving thing that lives shall be yours to eat; like the green vegetation, I have given you everything.
4. But, flesh with its soul, its blood, you shall not eat.

(CEP) Explain to the subject that God/Allah is about to give us the terms and conditions, the rules upon which we should all live. Point out that these were really the first commandments way in advance of Moses and the ten Commandments and ask the subject to explain the first commandment, keeping things slow and more intense.

(CEP) Advise the subject that the first rule was it is forbidden to eat flesh either with soul presumably an animal that is still alive or flesh with blood. Halal and Kosher meat keeps to this rule. Again remind the subject that this account is way before the instructions to Israelites on how to keep kosher in the desert wanderings.

Ask the subject to read the next 2 verses very slowly and carefully and to bear in mind not only is the Torah the first book of the words of Allah

5. But your blood, of your souls, I will demand [an account]; from the hand of every beast I will demand it, and from the hand of man, from the hand of each man, his brother, I will demand the soul of man. 6. Whoever sheds the blood of man through man shall his blood be shed, for in the image of God He made man. ו . שֹׁפֵךְדַּםהָאָדָםבָּאָדָםדָּמוֹיִשָּׁפֵךְכִּיבְּצֶלֶםאֱלֹהִיםעָשָׂהאֶתהָאָדָם :

(CEP) Repeat the verses again “. But your blood, of your souls, I will demand [an account]; from the hand of every beast I will demand it, and from the hand of man, from the hand of each man, his brother, I will demand the soul of man. 6. Whoever sheds the blood of man through man shall his blood be shed, for in the image of God He made man. ו . שֹׁפֵךְדַּםהָאָדָםבָּאָדָםדָּמוֹיִשָּׁפֵךְכִּיבְּצֶלֶםאֱלֹהִיםעָשָׂהאֶתהָאָדָם :

This is what we have been heading towards since the beginning of this programme. Confirm with the subject that Allah said quite clearly, in the beginning of the first book of Allah, long before Moses his commandment

“Whoever sheds the blood of man through man shall his blood be shed, for in the image of God He made man”

Point out to the subject that verse 5 is the warning and verse 6 the commandment the words are clear: God’s / Allah’s own words; words that cannot be played with. Words that cannot be added to or hidden or distorted: words that it is pointless to over-analyse

Give your interpretation of the words ie that Whatever animal or human spills the blood of man God will demand his/her soul and whoever sheds the blood of man shall his blood be shed . make it clear this is not talking of war nor murder, simply the shedding of blood. It is indisputable “Thou shall not take a life for whatever reason.” Now ask the subject for his response and deal with any response as follows

( SUBJECT) ....“God did not say we shall not kill”

God says that whoever spills blood their blood will be spilt by the hand of man BUT God shortly makes a Covenant with man and promises not to wipe us out ever again. God being infallible knows what His Covenant means for our future and therefore any killing in the name of God is not the word of God

 

[genesis9]

(SUBJECT) ....“God was not referring to war, nor Jihad”

(CEP) Advise the subject that he is correct. These original and earliest words of God/Allah made it clear there were no caveats

(SUBJECT)....“But in the Torah later The Israelites with God’s help killed all sorts of tribes.”

(CEP) Advise the subject that these writings came later in the Torah. God/Allah who is without error nor mistake gave us these words first and would not have changed His mind, nor contradicted himself. It is likely that there were embellishments but not here, not at this early and original stage.

(SUBJECT)....But in Jeremiah/Isaiah/Ezekiel/Amos etc. it states...

(CEP) These are not the words of God/Allah. These writings are NOT in the Torah

(SUBJECT).....“But it states in the Koran”

(CEP) Advise the subject that the Koran came much later than the Torah, and much later than this verse. How could an-all seeing God change His mind and why would the subject place more emphasis on a later work than an earlier one when it states quite clearly, early on in The Koran that the Torah IS the work of Allah. All you need to do is remove the seed of certainty in the mind of the subject, as we mentioned in the beginning of this programme ... that is all. Reiterate to the subject that it does not say smite only the unbeliever or those that do not follow the ways of God. It does not ask for the help of man to clear up the sinners. It cannot be explained in any other way . Drive the point home that this is without doubt the clearest message of all that the murder of any other Human of any persuasion of any caste, and of any belief-set is wrong. From this point God sets his Covenant with us, all of us , All the children of Noah.

Explain to the subject that by omission, God had said nothing to us about rape, or robbery, or fraud, or sexual relations with the same sex or anything else. That is because God made it so clear to us here by simple omission that all other acts are subject to the law of Man. he gave us that freedom.

 

[genesis9]

Finally the CEP can point out (this is optional) that these 2 commandments were actually number 2 and 3 and that the original commandment from God was right back in Genesis Chapter 2

16. And the Lord God commanded man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat. 17. But of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat of it, for on the day that you eat thereof, you shall surely die."

(CEP) Ask the subject what he/she thinks could be the significance of the breaking of this commandment in the context of the two we have just read and suggest that the more we think we know what is right and what is wrong we put ourselves and others in increasing danger and people die .


7. And you, be fruitful and multiply; swarm upon the earth and multiply thereon."


(CEP) This is the key verse in all of this . Ask the subject what he thinks this means. Remind the subject that the God of ALL in fact bless everybody through Noah and his sons ie our ancestors. Point out to the subject that if he or anyone else prevents others from multiplying and being fruitful they are in fact breaking the only Blessing that God ever gave to all of us . Ask the subject to analyse this verse again . Point out that an Infallible God would choose his words carefully ie no mention of how to worship or the need to convert non-believers just a blessing to be fruitful. ask the subject to read further


8. And God said to Noah and to his sons with him, saying: 9. "And I, behold I am setting up My covenant with you and with your seed after you. 10. And with every living creature that is with you, among the fowl, among the cattle, and among all the beasts of the earth with you, of all those who came out of the ark, of all the living creatures of the earth. This is my Covenant to you to all of humankind and to the beasts. 11. And I will establish My covenant with you, and never again will all flesh be cut off by the flood waters, and there will never again be a flood to destroy the earth." 12. And God said: "This is the sign of the covenant, which I am placing between Me and between you, and between every living soul that is with you, for everlasting generations. 13. My rainbow I have placed in the cloud, and it shall be for a sign of a covenant between Myself and the earth. 14. And it shall come to pass, when I cause clouds to come upon the earth, that the rainbow will appear in the cloud. 15. And I will remember My covenant, which is between Me and between you and between every living creature among all flesh, and the water will no longer become a flood to destroy all flesh. 16. And the rainbow shall be in the cloud, and I will see it, to remember the everlasting covenant between God and between every living creature among all flesh, which is on the earth. 17. And God said to Noah: "This is the sign of the covenant that I have set up, between Myself and between all flesh that is on the earth." 18. And the sons of Noah who came out of the ark were Shem, Ham, and Japheth; and Ham he was the father of Canaan. 19. These three were the sons of Noah, and from these, the entire earth spread out.

(CEP) Explain It is an everlasting covenant with a blessing that is for all time from the time of Noah. This is the oldest and most original covenant we have with God. This is God’s promise to us. These commands from God are the ones we must keep........ An all-knowing all seeing God would have known that we would break this Covenant but God/Allah did not add in caveats nor details of what would happen , not if but when we broke this Covenant by shedding blood. The Covenant still stands. The words are clear.

It is essential that the subject realises that an Infallible God makes and Infallible Covenant and that everything that follows on in the Bible after this Covenant is just the words of man.

Summary . God makes a covenant never to destroy us ever again. God warns us that anyone who sheds blood their blood shall be spilt but no murderer nor jihadist can ever be acting in the name of God because God made a promise never to destroy us ever again, implied directly or indirectly. Because God's words are clear and there are no ifs and no buts. how could the jihadist murderer, the extremist ever be acting in God's name. rather he has been fooled. God is infallable and would never correct his word, God would not need to . God blesses all of us with the words be fruitful & multiply


Check the subject's reaction. At this stage it might be opportune to seek immediate counselling or professional help. Advise the subject that the programme is at an end and check whether the desired result has taken place ie that there is now the faintest doubt in the mind of the subject that Allah commands his/her actions. If the programme has been conducted properly this should be in evidence. if there are issues and the CEP believes that the programme has not worked then the CEP should email

 

[columbus]

I do get it, I really do but this is not compulsory religious education, Gen 9:1- 9:19 actually shows quite clearly that God is secular, but quite nicely the same passage delights Christians jews and would you credit uslims. It is the only cohesive chapter in the Bible and it is also secular

No, obviously you don't. You are doing exactly what I am objecting to, insisting that your religious beliefs are different and better than others. You even manage to call for it to be compulsory and then say it isn't compulsory.
That is why I want religious beliefs kept out of secular curriculum. Because all religious people have a tendency to view their beliefs as special and necessary for the greater good.
You are doing it right here on this thread.
Tom

 

[genesis9]

No, obviously you don't. You are doing exactly what I am objecting to, insisting that your religious beliefs are different and better than others. You even manage to call for it to be compulsory and then say it isn't compulsory.
That is why I want religious beliefs kept out of secular curriculum. Because all religious people have a tendency to view their beliefs as special and necessary for the greater good.
You are doing it right here on this thread.
Tom

Your tagline is " To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle." I am a secular humanist and not religious and I love the verses Read them they are not beliefs they are "anti-beliefs" Be a taoist for a mo. Think what these verses (the key verses) do NOT say 9:6] Whoever sheds the blood of a human, by a human shall that person's blood be shed; for in his own image God made humankind. [9:7] And you, be fruitful and multiply, abound on the earth and multiply in it."

-No prescribed methods of worship
-No worship
-No demands
-No commands except that if you spill bnlood then by man will your blood be spilt Note by man
-No interfering God His blessing did not say I'll be back OR However etc
-All were blessed equally so in line with cohesive societies and the Human Right Act its right and fair
- No killing in the name of God

Do you get it now? not being rude

 

[columbus]

Do you get it now? not being rude

You are still advocating the compulsory teaching of your particular interpretation of a part of scripture.
That is what I am objecting to. The compulsory religious education, not that I think your interpretation is a bad one.
Do you get it now?
Once people think that compulsory religious education is OK, that it won't end with you and your opinions?
Tom

 

[genesis9]

You are still advocating the compulsory teaching of your particular interpretation of a part of scripture.
That is what I am objecting to. The compulsory religious education, not that I think your interpretation is a bad one.
Do you get it now?
Once people think that compulsory religious education is OK, that it won't end with you and your opinions?
Tom

Any child sat in a Mosque thinking about those very Sura that tell him to kill, even as the Imam explains they have very different meanings has got to think twice when at the end of the service Gen 9:1-9-19 is read to him I already quoted the Sura that tell him Allah gave the Old testament to the Jews and in his mind that's all he needs to confirm everything) The Imam has his eye on this kid,he has been asking questions that imply at least he is keen on lets say al-taaqiyya, so the chapters are read out, The Imam asks the kid some very difficult questions like What do you think this really truly means

"[9:6] Whoever sheds the blood of a human, by a human shall that person's blood be shed; for in his own image God made humankind. [9:7] And you, be fruitful and multiply, abound on the earth and multiply in it." [9:8] Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him, [9:9] "As for me, I am establishing my covenant with you and your
descendants after you,"

The kid falters ........You just removed the tiniest seed of brainwashing. Quoting Islamic verse useless, he knows all that. talking about Jesus,forget it , he sees Jesus as the second most important prophet BUT never as God/Son of God. Talk atheism to him and he won't even bother to listen to you, give him a secular argument and he'll laugh. This works. It works in Mosques, it will work the same way for right wing Christian lunatics too if caught very early on . Oh I know its "small beer" it wont save the world, its so simple and it will work

You are still advocating the compulsory teaching of your particular interpretation of a part of scripture.
"That is what I am objecting to."

Why exactly why, because it is a slippery slope?, Because you are frightened about your civil liberties? Because no-one should be told how to think or read or feel? Is it compulsory to teach evolution in school, I guess it is. Isn't that just another form of belief and as the teacher expounds an interpretation thereof . Don't teachers interpret all the time .

But I guess the real answer to your question is just give them the words My interpretation is for people like you to see where I am coming from. Let kids etc make up their own mind what the above verses mean. They don't need my interpretation .

BUT I think it would be really useful to me for you to give me your different interpretation of tGen 9:1-9:19 so I really get your point.

 

[genesis9]

You know what the real issue is here. We all think that most people are Atheists or similar and that the current extremist issues will all go away. Well that is true. The kids who are say 6 now will grow up and may turn away from all this. The trouble is I don't think the world is going to last that long in its current state. Its the young adults of today who are the real issue.

 

[genesis9]

I think John Kerry was partly right when he said "Ultimately this fight is not going to be decided
on the battlefield . . . It will be determined by our success in
creating prosperity that is widely shared." https://agenda.weforum.org/2015/01/11-quotes-from-john-kerry-at-davos-2015/
BUT there is a need to bring those who hear the voice of God, directing them in whatever way to conduct anti-social, anti-cohesive behaviour, back to the rest of us, the ones God or the Creator if you prefer blessed thats ALL humankind and before anyone dare say it, they are poor in Africa, because they have been stolen from (18th-19thCentury) from inside and outside. People die in Tsunami because they choose to live/visit in a dangerous area, if it's a new Tsunami , well you don't know everything .

I have only just read this http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34814203
I can't speak my heart pounds and my hand shakes. I feel sick.

 

[Deidre]

Here in the States we have this thing called "separation of church & state", so no, Genesis 9 should not be taught here in a public-funded setting that even goes beyond public schools.

This.

Curious @genesis9 - I notice that you ''label'' yourself as ''close to secular humanism.'' Why then do you believe that it should be compulsory for secular schools to teach Genesis? Just wondering.