Male Abortion (should man have the right to abort)

[epronovost]

You noted the burden of one side, but not the other.
It's reasonable to compare both. While not equivalent,
both burdens are potentially very significant.

What burden is exclusive to men? Women have to provide for their children financially if they have one and they have the burden of pregnancy and childbirth exclusively. A woman could be forced to pay child support for a child she no longer raises.

I don't see what's unequal. A women is the only one who can abort because she is the only one being pregnant and both men and women are financially responsible for their children.

 

[Revoltingest]

What burden is exclusive to men?

That's the wrong question.
But there is the issue that men can be found liable for
something they had no choice in, ie, abortion vs birth.

Women have to provide for their children financially if they have one and they have the burden of pregnancy and childbirth exclusively. A woman could be forced to pay child support for a child she no longer raises.

It appears you're arguing against the possibility
of fathers being held financially liable. If so,
that's not an effective argument.

I don't see what's unequal.

Childbirth & rearing =/= Financial support

A women is the only one who can abort because she is the only one being pregnant and both men and women are financially responsible for their children.

This has become unproductive.
I've nothing to add.

 

[ppp]

That's the wrong question.
But there is the issue that men can be found liable for
something they had no choice in, ie, abortion vs birth.

Perhaps I am not understanding you correctly, but the logical outgrowth of this is that men have no parental rights of their own.

 

[Revoltingest]

Perhaps I am not understanding you correctly, but the logical outgrowth of this is that men have no parental rights of their own.

Fathers have rights.
But there can be complexities.

 

[ppp]

Fathers have rights.
But there can be complexities.

If they are absolved of responsibility, on what grounds would they have rights?

 

[leroy]

You are just saying 'by that logic' without establishing a logical connection to the bodily autonomy argument.

Because nobody is talking about bodily autonomy.

The OP is not concerned with bodily autonomy , the question is: should men have the legal right to "not be fathers " in the same woman have this right ?

Even ignoring abortion women still have the right to give their child in to adoption and avoid the responsibility of being a mother.....so why can't men avoid the responsibility if the whant.


My answer would be that , the child's right to have a shelter and food trumps gender equality, so for the benefit of children men should let go "gender equality " and the law should force men to supply financial support for the child ......do you agree or would you suggest something else ?

 

[leroy]

Do you believe that a two months old fetus is literally a fully developed person who is simply suffering from a temporary bout of unconsciousness?

No but nether is a 4yo child...none of them is a fully developed person.


An embryo and a human in comma or a human that is sleeping are equivalent in the sense that none can feel pain, non are conscious in this particular moment (but they will be in the future) but both are valuable and have the right to live......I don't see a relevant difference between a human in coma and an embryo.

 

[ppp]

Because nobody is talking about bodily autonomy.

I was when I raised the argument of bodily autonomy, and you were when you responded directly to that argument. Otherwise, you were just babbling nonsense. Which, surprisingly enough, shocks me not at all

 

[ppp]

An embryo and a human in comma or a human that is sleeping are equivalent in the sense that none can feel pain, non are conscious in this particular moment (but they will be in the future) but both are valuable and have the right to live...

And neither has the right to use someone else's body to support their life without the permission of the donor.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Where are men not forced to pay child support?

It's forced, but they can find ways around it, like changing jobs often, and things like that. At least it used to be like that. Supposedly 40% of parents aren't getting the money owed to them.

 

[epronovost]

That's the wrong question.
But there is the issue that men can be found liable for
something they had no choice in, ie, abortion vs birth.

They did have access to contraception so they do have a large measure of control over their potential status as a father. Yes, it doesn't always work, but you can't force a women to go through a procedure like an abortion. That would be a breach of her body autonomy. She alone is pregnant and thus have access to an extra measure of birth control, but even then, a woman isn't sure to have access to that right. For example, while it's legal to have an abortion in Canada, in New Brunswick there is so little abortion clinics that many women simply can't have access to one without moving in another province to get that service which isn't always possible. Sometimes, **** happen. There are ways to prevent those tragic events, but denying responsibility towards a child is probably not the most humane nor the most sensical way of building a society.

Finally, aborting a fetus and abandoning a child isn't an equivalent action. One is the termination of a group of human cells without any consciousness nor capacity to suffer. Abandoning a child does harm it and can and does cause suffering. The stakes are thus very different making the "male abortion" very different both in nature and consequences for society and its members.

Childbirth & rearing =/= Financial support

No indeed, rearing up child is financial support + emotional support + education + protection. Financially supporting a child is definitely a part of parenting. Being beholden to financially support a child that you made is shared by both men and women. Single fathers can and do receive child support money that women are forced to pay.

 

[Revoltingest]

Perhaps I am not understanding you correctly, but the logical outgrowth of this is that men have no parental rights of their own.

No, we do.
But there can be complexities.

 

[Revoltingest]

If they are absolved of responsibility, on what grounds would they have rights?

I speak of a different situation, ie, one where
the father has major financial obligations, but
no right in the say of abortion vs birth. Once
born the father might negotiate or sue for
visitation rights.

 

[ppp]

I speak of a different situation, ie, one where
the father has major financial obligations, but
no right in the say of abortion vs birth. Once
born the father might negotiate or sue for
visitation rights.

If he sues, should his obligations be proportional to his rights?

 

[Revoltingest]

They did have access to contraception so they do have a large measure of control over their potential status as a father.

Both parties have access to contraception.
But that's not the issue regarding an unplanned
pregnancy.

Yes, it doesn't always work, but you can't force a women to go through a procedure like an abortion.

Not claiming that.
I've nothing to add.

 

[Revoltingest]

If he sues, should his obligations be proportional to his rights?

I don't know how proportionality plays out in court.

 

[ppp]

I don't know how proportionality plays out in court.

Me either. I do know that responsibilities and duties have a legal connection, but I don't know the details.

 

[leroy]

I was when I raised the argument of bodily autonomy, and you were when you responded directly to that argument. Otherwise, you were just babbling nonsense. Which, surprisingly enough, shocks me not at all

The problem is that you originally quoted a comment that has nothing to do with bodily autonomy

 

[ppp]

The problem is that you originally quoted a comment that has nothing to do with bodily autonomy

Not a problem at all. The person whom I was quoting [see below] was either ignorant of the actual arguments for abortion, or simply lying because their position against abortion is so weak that deceit is required. Magnanimous mensch that I am, I corrected the, shall we say, 'misapprehension' and replied with the real world argument, rather than that fantasy crap. You're welcome.

The logic is: if woman have the right to decide not to be mothers and have the right to avoid such responsability, why can’t men have the same right and decide not to be fathers.

 

[leroy]

And neither has the right to use someone else's body to support their life without the permission of the donor.

Granted, but in the case of pregnancy the "donation " was already made.

You dont have the legal right (nor the moral right) to donate a part of your body then repeat and kill the beneficiary of that donation.

For example once you donated a kidney, you can't repent and kill the beneficiary of your kidney..........so why making an arbitrary exception with pregnancy?