Male Abortion (should man have the right to abort)

[Clara Tea]

Where are men not forced to pay child support?

In the United States, men have privacy rights to avoid blood tests and DNA tests to determine fatherhood. This puts the financial burden on the American taxpayer, rather than the father.

Since every child should have a right to know who their parents are, it must be mandatory to test to determine who their father is/was.

 

[Clara Tea]

I meant "not open up, unless you want to create a baby", not many are able or are happy if they must control sex

People are lucky this is not (yet) a covid rule (although 1.5 meter distance should cover it)

Covid experts don't make sense...first "Don't wear a mask"....then "Wear a mask" ... then "Wear two masks."

Experts wrote that sex is fine as long as 6 foot social distancing is observed. I don't know of anyone with one that long.

 

[Sedim Haba]

Male Abortion (should men have the right to abort)

Male abortion, also called paper abortion, is a concept that suggests the men should be free to decide if they want to be fathers or not.

In other words, if the woman gets pregnant and she doesn’t whant to abort, the man should have the right to abandon the child, and not pay any kind of pension, child support nor anything of that sort

The logic is: if woman have the right to decide not to be mothers and have the right to avoid such responsability, why can’t men have the same right and decide not to be fathers.

I am personally against men and women aborting, but my question is if you are a person who is pro-abortion do you support both type of abortion?

Nowadays, men are forced to pay child support for children they didn't even father!

One such example:

Man ordered to pay $65K in child support for kid who isn’t his

SO .... maybe a pre-nup where a man puts this on record, and makes any potential partner sign?

 

[blü 2]

Lets say that a man and a woman have a beautiful cute son. The government should be able to use your logic to execute the child. After all, if the child no longer lives, there is no longer any work to do.

Eh?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I am not sure why you see the need to tell me your opinion on this.

Because we are having a conversation on the subject?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I have to admit, I've never actually asked myself that question before! (Then again, as a gay man, it's not likely to be top-of-mind much.) But it's a good question -- a very good question.

And on reflection, I would have to say that a man should have the same right as a woman -- to decide (at some reasonable period before birth) that he does not wish to be a parent, with all of those responsibilities. If he duly and properly notifies the woman (or if she does not even let him know that she's pregnant and planning to demand paternal support), then he should have the right not to be saddled with it.

While there's certainly a discussion to be had about the rights of men in how much he gets involved - or not - in context of unwanted/unplanned pregnancies, the OP isn't really about that.

The OP is about if a man could force a woman who is pregnant of said man, to abort, regardless of what the woman wants.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Well assume a "normal" situation .... a 30yo man with a normal job and economic stability had sex, got pregnant but he doesn't whant to be a father.........should he have the legal right to avoid the responsibility of being a father?

You have ommitted all the important details.

What is the relationship between both?
What were the circumstances of the sexual encounter?
What was said before and after?
Under which understanding did both engage in sex?


The man's age, job and economic situation has little to no relevance in the first assessment.

Suppose, for example, that it was a one night stand and that the dude before hand made it extremely clear that children are not an option. Furthermore the woman agrees to that and says that she's on the pill (which, say, is a lie) and further informs him that even if she gets pregnant, she'll take a morning after pill. And that even if that doesn't work, there's always abortion. And they then have sex with that a priori understanding and agreement.

In my book, this guy is tricked into getting her pregnant and bears no responsibility at all.


Now suppose that it concerns a couple who've been together for years and live together and everything. They literally plan on children and actively try to get pregnant. They succeed and are pregnant.
Upon seeing the positive test, the guy freaks out and wants to get out.


You don't see a difference in these 2 hypothetical situations?

 

[PureX]

But even after birth the woman has the right to give the child in adoption, ………so should the father was the legal right to say “hey if you don’t what to give the child to a foster family that is ok with me, but don’t expect any financial support”

Or should we force the father to pay for support (even if this represents gender inequality?--------(I will go for this last option)

Adoption dissolves both natural parent's responsibility and becomes the adopted parent's responsibility. Otherwise, both natural parents are responsible regardless of who raises the child or whether or not the other participates, actually. There are no excuses.

 

[PureX]

Where?

Everywhere.

 

[PureX]

Is the mother not as responsible as the father?

For what?

 

[ChristineM]

But, even if a condom broke, all parties should realize that such accidents "might" occur.

Yes and the responsibility should be equally shared.

I think that we should pay for and teach sex education in schools

No argument there

Condoms should be available free for all to prevent STDs (like AIDS), and prevent pregnancies.

And again, no argument

 

[ChristineM]

Though there are instances of rape, in most cases it is possible to say no.

And have that no ignored. Rape even in the case of resignation to the inevitable by the female who has said no (it happens often) is still rape. Rape can and does happen often enough for it to be illegal in most instances of America and many European countries, with 10 to 14% of married women asked say they have experienced marital rape.

Alcohol is also another factor.

 

[Koldo]

Male Abortion (should men have the right to abort)

Male abortion, also called paper abortion, is a concept that suggests the men should be free to decide if they want to be fathers or not.

In other words, if the woman gets pregnant and she doesn’t whant to abort, the man should have the right to abandon the child, and not pay any kind of pension, child support nor anything of that sort

The logic is: if woman have the right to decide not to be mothers and have the right to avoid such responsability, why can’t men have the same right and decide not to be fathers.

I am personally against men and women aborting, but my question is if you are a person who is pro-abortion do you support both type of abortion?

Yes. But I am also a huge believer in agreements. You can't just in the last minute have a change of mind if nothing major changed to justify it. Otherwise it would be like imposing an abortion or a birth into the other part.

 

[Koldo]

You have ommitted all the important details.

What is the relationship between both?
What were the circumstances of the sexual encounter?
What was said before and after?
Under which understanding did both engage in sex?


The man's age, job and economic situation has little to no relevance in the first assessment.

Suppose, for example, that it was a one night stand and that the dude before hand made it extremely clear that children are not an option. Furthermore the woman agrees to that and says that she's on the pill (which, say, is a lie) and further informs him that even if she gets pregnant, she'll take a morning after pill. And that even if that doesn't work, there's always abortion. And they then have sex with that a priori understanding and agreement.

In my book, this guy is tricked into getting her pregnant and bears no responsibility at all.


Now suppose that it concerns a couple who've been together for years and live together and everything. They literally plan on children and actively try to get pregnant. They succeed and are pregnant.
Upon seeing the positive test, the guy freaks out and wants to get out.


You don't see a difference in these 2 hypothetical situations?

I agree with you. Sadly it makes no difference right now when abortion is concerned though.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

can you give a scenario when a man does not have to pay child support?

When he was tricked into it for example.

Consider a hypothetical one-night stand where a priori understanding and agreement is such that it's just sex and that children are out of the question. Let's go a step further and say that the woman promises that she is taking the pill and that even if she gets pregnant anyway that she'll take a morning after pill and that even if that doesn't work, she'll abort.

Then afterwards, it turns out she lied about everything and actually just wanted to get pregnant and bag a rich guy to do it and trick him to be part of it.

In such scenario, I don't think the man has any responsibility.



Let's exaggerate even further - and this is a true story that happened in the UK on multiple occasions.
Single women with a ticking biological clock wishing to have a baby and don't care about not having a man.
So they go to nightclubs and pick up a guy. They have a one-night stand and use a condom. Upon finishing, she says she is going to take a shower and takes the used condom with here to "throw it away".
Yet instead of throwing it away, she takes a syringe to get the sperm out of the condom and squirts it into herself.

Again in such a scenario, I don't the man has any responsibility.

He can off course choose to be involved. But he can't be forced.
In fact, especially in the second example, I feel the man even has grounds to sue the woman and get paid himself.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The only point that I tried to make is that bodily autonomy is important, but it is not the most important value……

In this case, it is.
It is the single most important value.

……if your alternatives are “bodily autonomy” or kill an “innocent person” the second trumps the first.

If you truly believe that, then I should be able to force you to hand over a kidney as the only hypothetical match to save the life of an innocent person who needs a kidney.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

When you are at sleep due to the effect of anesthesia you have no consciousness, and you don’t feel pain………………so would it be ok to kill you while you are sleeping?

Should it be legal to kill an innocent sleeping person just because his existence is uncomfortable for you? …………… why can’t a mother kill his 4yo child while he is sleeping? What would be fundamentally different between that and killing an embryo?.........obviously the lack of conscience and the inability to feel pain are not good justification to kill innocent people otherwise it should be legal to kill people while they are sleeping under the effect of anesthesia

All you people completely miss the point.
All you people are engaging in extreme false equivalence fallacies by comparing the termination of a pregnancy with murdering a 4-year old.

Abortion is not about the fetus.
It's about the woman's right to not be pregnant.

The fetus is irrelevant. A third party's right NEVER trumps your own rights to your own body. Ever.

It's why we can't knock people out and harvest their organs to save someone who needs said organs.

 

[Sheldon]

men should be free to decide if they want to be fathers or not.

They are, what made you think sex was mandatory?

In other words, if the woman gets pregnant and she doesn’t whant to abort, the man should have the right to abandon the child, and not pay any kind of pension, child support nor anything of that sort

You want to get a woman pregnant and walk away and let others take on the responsibility, lot's of luck with that.

The logic is: if woman have the right to decide not to be mothers and have the right to avoid such responsability, why can’t men have the same right and decide not to be fathers.

Oh I don't think we need malign logic again, this sounds like misogynistic narcissism, nothing more; and again, men already have a choice about becoming fathers.

I am personally against men and women aborting, but my question is if you are a person who is pro-abortion do you support both type of abortion?

No, since this is just another misogynistic attempt to enslave women, by taking away their bodily autonomy, the same as denying them the right to terminate an unwanted pregnancy.

If a man doesn't want to be a father, he doesn't have to be, we need not enslave women to achieve that.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Even ignoring abortion women still have the right to give their child in to adoption and avoid the responsibility of being a mother

A mother can not make such a decision without the father's consent.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The problem is that you originally quoted a comment that has nothing to do with bodily autonomy

Only because "your side" consistently ignores that part of the argument of the "other side".
Which you need to off course, otherwise you can't say stupid things like "then why can't you just kill your 4-year old?????" - which off course is absurd when the argument of the pro-choice camp has nothing to do with the child and everything with the rights of bodily autonomy of women.