Man - 'Created in the image of God'

[Katzpur]

Yes, God is light and love, but His light and love emanate from His spirit. His personality, emotions and characteristics come from His spirit. They are not the same as His spirit.

I would agree.

It sounds like that is pretty much the same thing I was saying. I don't know if I am interpreting it differently or not, but it sounds the same.

I don't think you're interpreting it differently. I think we pretty much agree on what a spirit is.

No, the spirit does not die. Colossions 5:8 says, "We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." This means that when our spirits leave our body (a.k.a. death) they go to where the Lord is. So at this time that is heaven.

I agree that the spirit does not die. It cannot die; it is eternal. Do you believe that there will come a time when the physical body will be resurrected? If so, what does that mean to you, particularly with respect to the spirit?

By the way, Devoted, I am very much enjoying our conversation. It's nice to be able to have a conversation with someone who can manage to remain civil in the face of differences of opinion.

 

[free spirit]

and Charity

I believe we will see both of them, too, Charity. God the Father and His Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ. I don't believe we will be seeing just Jesus, sitting on the right hand of an invisible spirit. I believe we will be seeing two glorious, immortal personages.

So according to you the father and the son are not one but two personages. If that is the case you and your word are also two personages.

I know that my previous two posts are long but please read them it will bear some light on your questions.

 

[Katzpur]

So according to you the father and the son are not one but two personages.

That's right. I don't believe that a person can be his own son or his own father.

If that is the case you and your word are also two personages.

My word isn't a personage at all.

I know that my previous two posts are long but please read them it will bear some light on your questions.

I'll give it a try.

 

[Daily Devoted]

But where does the Bible say that this is what He is? Where does it say that He is three persons in one being? It doesn't, and I'm pretty sure you know that. That's what the Creeds say He is, but it's not what the Bible says. The Bible says only that God is "one." It implies (in John 17) the way in which the Father and the Son are "one" but it never, ever even suggests that they are both part of a single substance. Consider the following verses:

Exodus 24:3 ...and all the people answered withone voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do.

Acts 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul...

Romans 15:6 That ye may withone mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

In each of these verses, we can see that the one "one" is used to denote unity, not an actual number of units. I am at a loss as to why Trinitarians are so insistant that the references to God as being "one" must mean "one being," "one substance" or "one essence."

Isaiah 44:8 says, “Do not fear, nor be afraid; Have I not told you from that time, and declared it? You are My witnesses. Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock; I know not one.”

This means that there is only one God. Not three Gods. This being said, it either means that God the Father is the only God and God the Son and Spirit are not God, or that they are all one being/one God.

Can you show me somewhere in the Bible where it says that God is not one being?

Not necessarily. There are several hundred references to angels in the Bible and we are never once told that they are spirits. As a matter of fact, there is at least one instance in which an angel is said to touch someone, which could not be the case if the angel had been a spirit. I believe that angels are simply messengers of the Lord. I believe that in form, they are like human beings. Some may be pre-mortal spirits and some may be resurrected beings.

Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
This refers to angels as being spirits.

 

[Katzpur]

So according to the above scripture we have the image of God in ourselves, but unfortunately man’s imaginative and artistic skill has fashioned God to resemble himself, male and female.

Here's where I first disagree. I don't believe it's "man's imaginative and artistic skill that has fashioned God to resemble himself." God existed before man, and some of us simply believe what the Bible says instead of insisting that it means something other than what it clearly states: He created us in his image. All it takes is reading the statement in the context. Genesis 1 is talking about the physical creation of the earth, and verses 20 through 25 are specifically about other forms of animal life. God says that all living creatures will multiply "after their kind." In other words, cats will beget kittens. Dogs will beget puppies. Then in verse 26, the very next verse, God says that He will make man "in our image, after our likeness." There is no reason to assume that He has suddenly changed the subject. We are the spirit offspring of God, His sons and daughters. As children of God, we resemble our Heavenly Father. Just five chapters later, we are told that Adam had a son who was "in his likeness, after his image." I don't see anyone arguing the straightforward meaning of that verse. They simply accept it as meaning that Adam, like all other species produced offspring "after his kind."

Needless to say that they all are in error, because it is not the object, or creature, or our superficial appearance or gender that bear the image of God, but it is the essence (spirit) of God in us that bear the image of God.

There is no such thing as a spiritual image. An image, by its very definition, is the representation of something's physical attributes. You can no more have a spiritual image than you can have a wad of spiritual $20 bills.

Therefore it stands to reason to conclude that we are spiritual creatures covered with a body, (the apostle Paul calls it a tent) and our thoughts and words are the evidence that our essence bears the image of God.

And because we are in the image of God, I believe that God is a spirit clothed in an immortal body.

 

[Daily Devoted]

I agree that the spirit does not die. It cannot die; it is eternal. Do you believe that there will come a time when the physical body will be resurrected? If so, what does that mean to you, particularly with respect to the spirit?

Yes, I believe the body will be resurrected, but it will not be the same body as it was before: it will be a glorified, sinless body. In respect to the spirit, the spirit will still serve the same purpose as the source of personality.

May I ask, what do you believe?

By the way, Devoted, I am very much enjoying our conversation. It's nice to be able to have a conversation with someone who can manage to remain civil in the face of differences of opinion.

Thanks.

P.S. I have to go for now. I will be back later.

 

[free spirit]

Daily Devoted

Spirit - the invisible source or center of personality.
Also, when the spirit leaves the body, the body dies: James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

God is spirit: the Bible explicitly states this in John 4:24: "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

Yes Daily Devoted, "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

Please your comment on posts 92 and 93 will be appreciated.

 

[Katzpur]

Isaiah 44:8 says, “Do not fear, nor be afraid; Have I not told you from that time, and declared it? You are My witnesses. Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock; I know not one.”

Yes, but "God" is a synomyn for "Godhead" (check the dictionary if you doubt me) and "Godhead" is a collective noun. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost all share the same title, and that title is "God." We can correctly refer to any of the three of them as "God," but when we are referring to all three of them as a perfectly unified body called "God," we are really referring to the Godhead.

This means that there is only one God. Not three Gods. This being said, it either means that God the Father is the only God and God the Son and Spirit are not God, or that they are all one being/one God.

Are you telling me that you seriously cannot see a problem with these two statements?

1. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
2. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

The second one flat out contradicts the first.

Can you show me somewhere in the Bible where it says that God is not one being?

I can show you plenty of places where the being known as Jesus Christ prays to the being known as His Father. Or are we talking about one being talking to himself?

Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
This refers to angels as being spirits.

Okay, I was not aware of that passage. Still, that's just one passage which counters the one where an angel touches someone. I would agree with you that in most cases, angels are spirits. On the other hand, there are scriptures which say that in the resurrection, some people will be like angels. Does that mean they won't receive resurrected bodies at all? (Let's try not get too far off track, which we could do if we start getting into a discussion of angels.)

 

[Katzpur]

Yes, I believe the body will be resurrected, but it will not be the same body as it was before: it will be a glorified, sinless body. In respect to the spirit, the spirit will still serve the same purpose as the source of personality.

May I ask, what do you believe?

I think we agree on this. It will be the same body in certain respects. In other words, I believe I will be able to recognize my loved ones when I see them, but I believe our bodies will be perfected and made glorious and immortal. Our spirits will re-enter our bodies, giving them new life.

As before, the spirit is the source of life. And this brings me to one important point. The word "pneuma" which is translated as "spirit" in "God is spirit," is translated elsewhere in the Bible as "life." Since both "spirit" and "life" are accurate translations of the word "pneuma," it would also be correct to say "God is life." To me, God is life. He is the source of all life. The word "spirit" is not intended to define his appearance (or lack of appearance). It is intended to convey the fact that He is life itself, a living Being, a Being capable of feeling and thinking. The fact that He is such a Being has nothing -- one way or the other -- to do with whether He has a body or not. Just as your spirit can exist inside your body when you are alive and outside of your body when you are dead, so can God's. I believe that He is a spirit clothed in immortality, in a glorified celestial body that we will behold with our own eyes when we are with Him again in Heaven. He won't just be something we can sense or feel, but a loving Father who will wrap His real arms around us.

 

[free spirit]

Here's where I first disagree. I don't believe it's "man's imaginative and artistic skill that has fashioned God to resemble himself." God existed before man, and some of us simply believe what the Bible says instead of insisting that it means something other than what it clearly states: He created us in his image. All it takes is reading the statement in the context. Genesis 1 is talking about the physical creation of the earth, and verses 20 through 25 are specifically about other forms of animal life. God says that all living creatures will multiply "after their kind." In other words, cats will beget kittens. Dogs will beget puppies. Then in verse 26, the very next verse, God says that He will make man "in our image, after our likeness." There is no reason to assume that He has suddenly changed the subject. We are the spirit offspring of God, His sons and daughters. As children of God, we resemble our Heavenly Father. Just five chapters later, we are told that Adam had a son who was "in his likeness, after his image." I don't see anyone arguing the straightforward meaning of that verse. They simply accept it as meaning that Adam, like all other species produced offspring "after his kind."

For all intentions and purposes our body resemble that of an animal, So my urgument is that our given ability of intelligent reason is what makes us in the image of God. that is all.

There is no such thing as a spiritual image. An image, by its very definition, is the representation of something's physical attributes. You can no more have a spiritual image than you can have a wad of spiritual $20 bills.

(If I give you a note I.O.Y. $20.00 dollars, is't that the spiritual values of the real bill?)
In Genesis 3:22 we read "Then the Lord God said. 'behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil." As you can see the spiritual fact of knowing good and evil has made them like God; in other words our body and gender image is different but our spirit is the same because we can both talk like God.

And because we are in the image of God, I believe that God is a spirit clothed in an immortal body.

Are you saying that Jesus body has become the body of God?

 

[Katzpur]

Are saying that Jesus body has become the body of God?

Uh, no. What was it I said that made you think that?

 

[Katzpur]

For all intentions and purposes our body resemble that of an animal, So my urgument is that our given ability of intelligent reason is what makes us in the image of God. that is all.

Okay, well I look pretty different from my dogs and my cat, so I don't think my body resembles the body of an animal. It's our ability to reason (among other things) that makes us "in his likeness." It is that we look like Him that makes us "in his image." A child can be like his parent in many ways, none of which is physical. But if a 5-year-old boy's mother tells me that he is "the spittin' image of his dad at the same age," I know he looks a lot like his father did when his father was five.

(If I give you a note I.O.Y. $20.00 dollars, is't that the spiritual values of the real bill?)

I sure hope not. If you pay me $20 spiritual dollars, I'm going to have a hard time spending them. If you owe me $20, you had better pay me twenty literal, physical dollars.

In Genesis 3:22 we read "Then the Lord God said. 'behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil." As you can see the spiritual fact of knowing good and evil has made them like God; in other words our body and gender image is different but our spirit is the same because we can both talk like God.

That's right. Adam became more like God in that he gained the ability to distinguish between good and evil. This verse says absolutely nothing about our body and gender. You say these things are different, but you haven't given any scriptural evidence to support your position.

 

[Daily Devoted]

Yes, but "God" is a synomyn for "Godhead" (check the dictionary if you doubt me) and "Godhead" is a collective noun. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost all share the same title, and that title is "God." We can correctly refer to any of the three of them as "God," but when we are referring to all three of them as a perfectly unified body called "God," we are really referring to the Godhead.

I cannot find where God is a synonym for godhead. If there is more than one God, then what of all the singular references to God in the Bible?

Are you telling me that you seriously cannot see a problem with these two statements?

1. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
2. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

The second one flat out contradicts the first.

It does seem to contradict, but that is in our human reasoning. We are talking about God. He is above human reasoning. Would you be willing to admit that it is possible with God, to have a characteristic such as the trinity that completely defies human logic?

I can show you plenty of places where the being known as Jesus Christ prays to the being known as His Father. Or are we talking about one being talking to himself?

They are three persons in one being. This is the part that we cannot understand as humans. I know it doesn't make sense in human terms, but God is not human. There are examples in creation of three parts making one substance. i.e. an egg: 1.) the eggshell. 2.) the egg-white. and 3.) the yolk. Before I can really get into this discussion fully I need to know something that you believe: Is Christ God? As in is He equal to God the Father and God the Son?

Okay, I was not aware of that passage. Still, that's just one passage which counters the one where an angel touches someone. I would agree with you that in most cases, angels are spirits. On the other hand, there are scriptures which say that in the resurrection, some people will be like angels. Does that mean they won't receive resurrected bodies at all? (Let's try not get too far off track, which we could do if we start getting into a discussion of angels.)

Could you post that other passage? I'll be brief on the angels: when it talks of us being as the angels Jesus is referring to our marital status in heaven. Matthew 22:30 "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven" This was when the Saducees approached Jesus with the idea of the woman that was given as a wife to seven men and widowed each time. They were trying to trip him up to disprove the resurrection.

 

[Katzpur]

I cannot find where God is a synonym for godhead.

According to my Webster's New Universal Unabridged:

Godhead: (1) divinity; godship (2) God

If there is more than one God, then what of all the singular references to God in the Bible?

I'm not sure I understand the question. Could you quote a couple of them and I'll give you my interpretation?

It does seem to contradict, but that is in our human reasoning.

Yes, it's human reasoning, but it's also human wording. It's an explanation of who God is by men who were trying to reconcile the language of the scriptures to Greek philosophical thought. The Bible is God's word. The Creeds are men's attempt to "clarify" what the scriptures apparently didn't cover adequately.

We are talking about God. He is above human reasoning. Would you be willing to admit that it is possible with God, to have a characteristic such as the trinity that completely defies human logic?

I'm sure that God has a great many characteristics we couldn't possibly begin to understand. That's one of my biggest complaints with the Creeds: They attempt to explain how God is both one and three, and they do so, in my opinion, quite unsuccessfully.

They are three persons in one being.

So Jesus Christ alone is not a being?

This is the part that we cannot understand as humans. I know it doesn't make sense in human terms, but God is not human. There are examples in creation of three parts making one substance. i.e. an egg: 1.) the eggshell. 2.) the egg-white. and 3.) the yolk.

But the substance of each of these parts is not the same. Try substituting the egg-white and the yolk in a recipe; better still, don't! They are all parts of an egg, but they are not the same substance.

Before I can really get into this discussion fully I need to know something that you believe: Is Christ God? As in is He equal to God the Father and God the Son?

Fair enough. I definitely believe that Christ is God. I believe that the Son is equal to His Father in terms of all of His divine qualities. In other words, He has exactly the same attributes as His Father. One is no more or less divine or godly than the other. With respect to "rank" (for lack of a better word), or "position within the relationship," the Father is greater than the Son. It is always the Father giving the instructions and the Son obeying. It is always the Son praying to the Father and never the other way around. Because God is the same yesterday, today and forever, the relationship between them is also the same.

Could you post that other passage?

I'll have to find it. Give me some time.

I'll be brief on the angels: when it talks of us being as the angels Jesus is referring to our marital status in heaven. Matthew 22:30 "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven" This was when the Saducees approached Jesus with the idea of the woman that was given as a wife to seven men and widowed each time. They were trying to trip him up to disprove the resurrection.

Actually, we could get into an entirely new topic if I were to comment on this conversation. For the time being, I'm not going to go there. I hope that's okay with you.

 

[Daily Devoted]

ok, I am going to get back to you tomorrow or so. I have to do some work.

 

[Thorwald Johansen]

ok, I am going to get back to you tomorrow or so. I have to do some work.

I have been reading a lot of your postings and those of Katspur. I enjoyed reading them. A few items haven't been covered;

1. Isaiah 44:6 - There are only two 'persons/figures'. It appears that there is no mention of The Holy Ghost (Who proceedeth from The Father).

2. Jesus Christ told the rich man, "There is no one good but God," when the rich man called Jesus Christ, "good."

3. The Father would have to have existed before He begot The Son.

 

[free spirit]

That's right. I don't believe that a person can be his own son or his own father.

We read in John 1:1-5, "In the beginning was the Word, and the word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In him was life, and the life was the light of men."
I will try to explain the above scripture.
1) When God spoke He revealed his son "the Word" and through his Word God created all things.
2) In him was life: That is to say, the abilities to speak is what gives us life, without the ability to speak you would be alive but not living as it were.
3) The words that we speak are life, and that life translates into understanding, understanding is therefore the light of men;

The above relationship of God and Jesus can be explained also in this way. "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with "Katzpur" and the word was "Katzpur". He was in the beginning with "Katzpur" All things came into being by him." You get the idea. Now you must understand you cannot separate your word from you, it is impossible. So, you are your word, and your word is you, and so is God and Jesus.

My word isn't a personage at all.

Without your ability to speak you will have no personage at all, it is the words that we speak that gives us personage

I'll give it a try.[/

Thanks

 

[free spirit]

Uh, no. What was it I said that made you think that?

In post 105 you write, "And because we are in the image of God, I believe that God is a spirit clothen in an immortal body."

 

[free spirit]

Thorwald Johansen;2235920]

3. The Father would have to have existed before He begot The Son. [

]

No: because we read in John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word" And in verse two we read "He was in the beginning with God" There is no such thing "before" the beginning

 

[free spirit]

Okay, well I look pretty different from my dogs and my cat, so I don't think my body resembles the body of an animal. It's our ability to reason (among other things) that makes us "in his likeness." It is that we look like Him that makes us "in his image." A child can be like his parent in many ways, none of which is physical. But if a 5-year-old boy's mother tells me that he is "the spittin' image of his dad at the same age," I know he looks a lot like his father did when his father was five.

I said for all intention and purposes our body resembles that of an animal, looks has nothing to do in the spiritual realm. It is our character hither good or evil that makes us close or far from the image of God.

I sure hope not. If you pay me $20 spiritual dollars, I'm going to have a hard time spending them. If you owe me $20, you had better pay me twenty literal, physical dollars.

You do not understand that it is the law which gives the $20 bill its value, and the law as you know is spiritual.

That's right. Adam became more like God in that he gained the ability to distinguish between good and evil. This verse says absolutely nothing about our body and gender. You say these things are different, but you haven't given any scriptural evidence to support your position.[/quote

]

You see Adam became more like God by knoving good and evil; his body did not change, but his soul did change.