Man hating: what is it?

[Sunstone]

Too late! But maybe your attitude gives the perception that you are the perfect example drying well running out of time.

Oh gosh! That is such a withering retort! I feel myself totally fried by the scorching brilliance of it's juvenile insight and intelligence!

Just so you know, you must be at least 13 years old to post on this Forum.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I guess I should just trust all men in my space, and if I get raped get blamed for it, that it was my fault for being so trusting? LMAO you can't win.

 

[freethinker44]

I guess I should just trust all men in my space, and if I get raped get blamed for it, that it was my fault for being so trusting? LMAO you can't win.

This is a strawman. No one is saying to trust all men, we are saying "don't generalize". You don't like being generalized as "the weaker sex" just as I don't like being generalized as a rapist.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Something I have just been thinking about - what is man hating? It almost always comes up when having any feminist discussion which is why we wanted this forum in the first place.
But I was wondering exactly what man hating is within feminism and is there any legitimacy to it being asked to be addressed within feminist discussions? Personally I just see it as a distraction from the real issues, but I've never quite known what it meant.
I for one have a mistrust for men that is different from my mistrust for people in general. I trust women more in my personal private space in general than I ever would with men in general, because of sexual harassment. Would this count as "hating men?"

Statistically speaking, I think your reservation in private spaces around men compared to women has a legitimate backing. However, the way I understand your statement is that you don't find it as easy to trust men you don't know well in such situations as you do women. But if your statement is intended to mean that you would have this kind of reservation toward any man merely because of his gender, even one you knew well and could trust in general, then I think the statement constitutes sexism.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I guess I should just trust all men in my space, and if I get raped get blamed for it, that it was my fault for being so trusting? LMAO you can't win.

If you want to avoid getting raped, there are probably a score of better considerations to make than simply not trusting all men. Likewise, one opens themselves up to many other negative situations by simply trusting all women. Blanket judgments are rarely useful for avoiding bad situations, and generally contribute to a paranoid and fearful psyche.

 

[iamsharky789]

Oh gosh! That is such a withering retort! I feel myself totally fried by the scorching brilliance of it's juvenile insight and intelligence!

Just so you know, you must be at least 13 years old to post on this Forum.

Awe man!!! Too bad I will not see a reply to this post. Your anger reminds me of the article about The Agony of Not Being Able to Have Children. I have this feeling that you might of wrote it.

 

[Sunstone]

But that doesn't make it right. If your scenario was one path was someone of your race and the other path was someone of another race, it would be racist to choose the path with your own race if that decision was simple based on race alone. Similarly, it would be sexist to choose a path based on gender alone.

True, it doesn't make it morally right. But morality does not always -- or perhaps even usually -- take into account probabilities. That is, morality should never be confused with reality.

In the case of the two paths, I would suggest there is no real moral issue, for what actual harm does it do to a man, or even to a black man, that you avoid walking by him on a dark path? And if that has, as I suggest, no real moral implications, then is Horrorble's propensity to initially trust men less than she initially trusts women very likely to do much harm to any man?

I would think we should avoid taking the fundamentalist approach that morals are categorically valid, and rather recognize the more reasonable position that morals are valid only in so far as they serve the purpose of preventing or reducing significant harm to others.

To the extent Horrorble's attitude significantly harms men, then to that extent it would seem to me immoral. But I don't see much significant harm to me, for instance, in her being more cautious inviting me up to her flat than she would be with inviting a woman, given that all else is equal.

 

[Debater Slayer]

If you want to avoid getting raped, there are probably a score of better considerations to make than simply not trusting all men. Likewise, one opens themselves up to many other negative situations by simply trusting all women. Blanket judgments are rarely useful for avoiding bad situations, and generally contribute to a paranoid and fearful psyche.

I think an important thing to mention here, however, is that a considerable number of rape cases we hear about are committed by people against women they know well. I don't think that should be used as grounds to generalize all men as dangerous creatures, but I can see how someone might view that as a reason to be more cautious in general.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Statistically speaking, I think your reservation in private spaces around men compared to women has a legitimate backing. However, the way I understand your statement is that you don't find it as easy to trust men you don't know well in such situations as you do women. But if your statement is intended to mean that you would have this kind of reservation toward any man merely because of his gender, even one you knew well and could trust in general, then I think the statement constitutes sexism.

I live with a man

 

[Sunstone]

If you want to avoid getting raped, there are probably a score of better considerations to make than simply not trusting all men. Likewise, one opens themselves up to many other negative situations by simply trusting all women. Blanket judgments are rarely useful for avoiding bad situations, and generally contribute to a paranoid and fearful psyche.

Good advice. Actually, better than good. Excellent advice. But I'm not sure it precisely addresses what Horrorble means here. Perhaps because her statements are more open to being mistaken for meaning something that I'm pretty sure she does not mean than they need to be.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I live with a man

Then my initial impression still holds: your caution has a realistic statistical basis, and I wouldn't consider it "man-hating" unless you mistrusted all men merely based on their gender.

By the way, Horrorble, I'm not sure if this makes any difference, but many women and men alike in the culture I come from adopt your stance, and the vast majority of them aren't feminists. So if someone accuses you of being a "man-hater" and then cites your feminism to leverage their accusation, you can tell them that they're most likely not familiar with cultures more than a couple of feet beyond their yard.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Good advice. Actually, better than good. Excellent advice. But I'm not sure it precisely addresses what Horrorble means here. Perhaps because her statements are more open to being mistaken for meaning something that I'm pretty sure she does not mean than they need to be.

That's certainly possible, as there seems to be some inconsistency between words, tone, and message. However, it also seems possible that she's communicating something that she isn't aware that she's communicating.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Then my initial impression still holds: your caution has a realistic statistical basis, and I wouldn't consider it "man-hating" unless you mistrusted all men merely based on their gender.

By the way, Horrorble, I'm not sure if this makes any difference, but many women and men alike in the culture I come from adopt your stance, and the vast majority of them aren't feminists. So if someone accuses you of being a "man-hater" and then cites your feminism to leverage their accusation, you can tell them that they're most likely not familiar with cultures more than a couple of feet beyond their yard.

and also an experienced basis

 

[nilsz]

It's wrong to have a general mistrust of an entire group of people based on physical appearance. There are certain situations where it might be warranted, but to just have a general mistrust of a group is prejudice. Even if the statistics back up your opinion, it is still wrong to generalize. For example, Asians are commonly stereotyped as being better at math. This source says that Asian American SAT scores in math average almost 60 points higher than any other group. Statistically, Asian Americans are better at math than other American races, does this make it not racist to generalize Asians in math? No, it is still racist, even if they are better.

No matter how you look at it, generalizing is wrong.

I strongly disagree. All judgement is based on more or less accurate generalizations. What is wrong is to treat someone unfavourably based on likely wrong presuppositions.

 

[Sunstone]

That's certainly possible, as there seems to be some inconsistency between words, tone, and message. However, it also seems possible that she's communicating something that she isn't aware that she's communicating.

Well, I have often enough discussed feminism with Horrorble in chat, so my interpretation of what she means is influenced by those conversations. And I think you're right that her statement in the OP is misleading.

 

[Sunstone]

I live with a man

Me too! I live with a man too: Me!

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Me too! I live with a man too: Me!

Sorry to hear that babe, it's tough living with a man isn't it!?

 

[freethinker44]

Sorry to hear that babe, it's tough living with a man isn't it!?

Yeah, we always have to worry about whether or not today's going to be the day we finally rape ourselves. Because, you know, that's what men do... rape things.

 

[Sunstone]

Sorry to hear that babe, it's tough living with a man isn't it!?

Oh! Don't get me started! The guy I live with....Jeebers! His insufferable views on porn, prostitution, and especially, erotic dance, alone and by themselves are enough to make a seasoned sailor on shore leave cringe in disgust and embarrassment. And the hours -- the days! -- he spends perving on beautiful womensfolk! Well, just don't get me started.

 

[Sunstone]

Yeah, we always have to worry about whether or not today's going to be the day we finally rape ourselves. Because, you know, that's what men do... rape things.

I detect enough straw in your statement to build a rather sizable man.