Man made traditions from the Church or the Word of God - Who do you believe and follow?

[sojourner]

Exactly, but it's obvious that some have never studied the history of both the Church and the Bible. I know that the fundamentalist Protestant church I grew up in didn't teach this history, as if Martin Luther miraculously caught a Bible floating down from heaven right into his hands.

As has been repeatedly said, "Those whom do not know their history are doomed to repeat it".

It’s their Achilles heel. And they know it. Which is the reason for the mad-fit response I got.

 

[sojourner]

Do you think God who is in control of all things and the creator of heaven and earth is not in control of his own Word

God’s not in control of God’s own image — human beings.

Everything in the bible is there because God put there because it is God's will for it to be there

God didn’t put it there. People put it there. And it has been shown that the texts have undergone very human redaction.

It is however the written Word of God, given to us by the living Word of God

I have a bible that says “Zondervan Publishing.” Is Zondervan Publishing the “word of God?”

does indeed make it of divine origin

The Bible is of human origin. Especially when chunks of the OT and the Law are copied from earlier Sumerian, Assyrian and Egyptian myths.

You can put your faith in scholars if you like (teachings and traditions of men)

‘K. Let’s see you read the Bible without scholarship. What taught you to read? Scholarship. What gave you a Bible n English? Scholarship. Put your trust in “divine osmosis” if you like, but you won’t be able to read the Bible if you do.

 

[sojourner]

The 4th commandments is about keeping the day (friday sunset to Saturday sunset) as a Holy day of rest as a memorial of God's creation. No uneccesary work, business, shopping or domestic work is to be done on that day. It is a day dedicated to God and a celebration of God as creator of Heaven and earth and a memorial of creation.

Who makes the determination of what constitutes “necessary” or “unnecessary,” and where is that listed in the Bible? (chapter and verse please — in the NRSV)

 

[sojourner]

Sure it was why would you say that?

Can you show where the Bible explicitly says, “The crucifixion is part of God’s plan?”

 

[sojourner]

It is true no one can answer those questions because there is no scripture. So if there is no scripture that abolishes God's 4th commandment and commands us to keep Sunday as a holy day, why do people do so when JESUS warns us not to in MATTHEW 15:2-9?

First of all, that particular text doesn’t explicitly address the keeping of the 4th commandment. You’re misusing the text. Second, in the passage, Jesus allows his disciples to break commandments. Third, no “warning” is issued by Jesus in the passage.

It’s illogical to assert that every human act of faith and devotion are outlined in or dictated by a bible that didn’t exist for most of human history. For example, there are no explicit instructions for the performance of either baptism or Eucharist. Nor are there any explicit instructions for worship or prayer. There is also no bible passage that expressly forbids the celebration of the Resurrection or worship on Sunday. And Paul tells us that all things are permissible.

You talk as though the 4th commandment is a matter of life and death. But it’s not permissible to do work on the Sabbath. Yet, if someone needed emergency surgery on the Sabbath, you’d be in favor of it. But there is no bible passage that explicitly permits such to happen. How do you explain your disobedience to the word of God? Conversely, if you were not in favor of the surgery, how do you explain your disobedience to Christ’s teaching to love and to help the sick?

 

[3rdAngel]

Exactly, but it's obvious that some have never studied the history of both the Church and the Bible. I know that the fundamentalist Protestant church I grew up in didn't teach this history, as if Martin Luther miraculously caught a Bible floating down from heaven right into his hands. As has been repeatedly said, "Those whom do not know their history are doomed to repeat it".

Nonsense. The Church has always been based on the old and new teastament scriptures of the teachings of JESUS, the prophets and the Apostles. In the days of JESUS and the Apostles their bible was the old testament scriptures from which they give us their fulfillment in the new testament teachings of JESUS and the Apostles. God's church has always only ever been all those who believe and follow God's Word. Those who knowingly do not believe and follow God's Word I believe accoding to the scriptures are not God's Church.

 

[3rdAngel]

God’s not in control of God’s own image — human beings.

Sorry I do not know what your talking about. I asked you if you think God is in control of His own Word?

3rdAngel said: ↑ Everything in the bible is there because God put there because it is God's will for it to be there

Your response...

God didn’t put it there. People put it there. And it has been shown that the texts have undergone very human redaction.

I believe all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness *2 TIMOTHY 3:16 and we are to live by every word of it *MATTHEW 4:4.

The Bible is of human origin. Especially when chunks of the OT and the Law are copied from earlier Sumerian, Assyrian and Egyptian myths.

Thank you for proving my point. Your a teacher in a church that practices the occult teachings of Shamainism that does not believe the scriptures. I believe you will have a lot to answer for some day unless you return to God.

‘K. Let’s see you read the Bible without scholarship. What taught you to read? Scholarship. What gave you a Bible n English? Scholarship. Put your trust in “divine osmosis” if you like, but you won’t be able to read the Bible if you do.

I believe God is in control of his Word. Everything is how it should be. No one needs scholarship to interpret the bible once they have been given it in through own language. Interpretation or understanding of the scriptures comes from God alone. Do you not know the new covenant promises written in JOHN 14:26; JOHN 16:14; 1 JOHN 2:27; JOHN 8:31-36; HEBREWS 8:11?

 

[3rdAngel]

Now you’re shouting? So you accuse me of “jumping up and down,” and here you are throwing a two-year-old tantrum in text. Pot, meet Kettle...No it isn’t. The writings simply weren’t there when he Church was formed. It, by definition, cannot be based on those writings.

Not at all your confused I was only emphasising a word to show through the scriprtures, that I do not beleive there is any truth in your statement and demonstrated why I believe this way. As posted to you and your friend earlier the Church has always been based on the old and new teastament scriptures of the teachings of JESUS, the prophets and the Apostles. In the days of JESUS and the Apostles their bible was the old testament scriptures from which they give us their fulfillment in the new testament teachings of JESUS and the Apostles. God's church has always only ever been all those who believe and follow God's Word. Those who knowingly do not believe and follow God's Word I believe accoding to the scriptures are not God's Church.

 

[3rdAngel]

It’s their Achilles heel. And they know it. Which is the reason for the mad-fit response I got.

Goodness is this what you need to resort to. There was no mad -fit response. This is something you have made up in order to avoid answering the post and scriptures shared with you

 

[3rdAngel]

Who makes the determination of what constitutes “necessary” or “unnecessary,” and where is that listed in the Bible? (chapter and verse please — in the NRSV)

God does....

HOW DO WE KEEP THE SABBATH?

WHAT DOES GOD'S 4TH COMMANDMENT SAY?

EXODUS 20:8-11
[8], Remember the SABBATH DAY, to KEEP IT HOLY. <Why?> Because God made it Holy for mankind and commands us to keep it as a Holy day)
[9], Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work:
[10], But the SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: <WHY>
[11], For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the SEVENTH DAY: wherefore the LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH, and HALLOWED IT.

WHAT DAY IS GOD'S SABBATH?

v10 The SEVENTH DAY of the week. (Saturday)

WHEN DOES THE SEVENTH DAY OF THE WEEK START?

GENESIS 1:4-5
[4], And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
[5], And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

A day in God's time is the night (darkness) and the light make up one day. The DAY in God's WORD starts at SUNSET and ends the following SUNSET. So God's 4th Commandment Sabbath would start Friday at SUNSET and end Saturday at SUNSET.

ALL UNECCESSARY WORK TO BE DONE BEFORE FRIDAY SUNSET

EXODUS 16:22-23
[22], And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses.
[23], And he said to them, This is that which the LORD has said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath to the LORD: bake that which you will bake to day, and seethe that you will seethe; and that which remains over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

MARK 15:42, And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath

The preparation day is the 6th day of the week. This includes preparing to stop all business and secular work as well as any domestic work; cooking, cleaning; shopping, buying and selling that can be done on any other day of the week.

IT IS LAWFUL TO DO GOOD ON THE SABBATH?

MATTHEW 12:5-12
[5], Or have you not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
[6], But I say to you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
[7], But if you had known what this means, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, you would not have condemned the guiltless.
[8], For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day
[9], And when he was departed from there, he went into their synagogue:
[10], And, behold, there was a man who had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
[11], And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
[12], How much then is a man better than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

MARK 2:27, And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath

It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.

WHAT IS LAWFUL ON GOD'S SABBATH?

1. Remembering the creator and his creation (Exod 20:8-11)
2. Rest from all unnecessary work (Ecodus 20:10-11)
3. Doing good (Matt 12:12)
4. Prayer (Acts 16:13; Matt 21:13)
5. Worship the creator (Isaiah 58:13-14; Ex 34:14; 1KING 9:6; Rev 14:6-12)

Song, praise, bible study, helping others, preaching the gospel, resting, prayer, seeking God, remembering the creator and his creation. Walking in nature, going to church with like minded believers. (too many scriptures)

WHAT IS NOT LAWFUL ON GOD'S SABBATH?

WORK; all business and secular work as well as any domestic work; cooking, cleaning; shopping, buying and selling that can be done on any other day of the week and anything to do with work (Exodus 20:8-11; Ex 16:22-23; Matt 21:13).

.............

There is no purpose in FOLLOWING any of God's LAWs including the SABBATH if it is NOT done through FAITH that works by LOVE because it is ONLY as GOD writes his LAW to LOVE then we can take up our beds to follow him. LOVE is the fulfilling of GOd's LAW in those who BELIEVE (Rom 13:8-10)

God’s commandments are the standard of GOOD AND EVIL; SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; JAMES 2:10-11; PSALMS 119:172.

God’s 4th commandment is one of the 10 commandments. If we KNOWINGLY break it just like any of the other commandments we commit sin and sin will keep all those who KNOWINGLY practice it out of God’s KINGDOM *HEBREWS 10:26-27; 1 JOHN 2:3-4; HEBREWS 6:4-8; JAMES 2:10-11

Hope this helps...

 

[3rdAngel]

Can you show where the Bible explicitly says, “The crucifixion is part of God’s plan?”

Your clutching at straws how Christ died is irrelavent. That he would die was always known from the foundation of the world.....

John 1:29 [29], The next day John sees Jesus coming to him, and said, Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world.

1 Peter 1:18-20 [18], For as much as you know that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; [19], But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: [20], Who truly was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things to himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Ephesians 2:16 And that he might reconcile both to God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby

1 Peter 1:18-19 [18], For as much as you know that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; [19], But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Luke 9:22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, you have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain

Romans 3:25 Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who sometimes were far off are made near by the blood of Christ.

Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins

Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Hope this helps...

 

[3rdAngel]

First of all, that particular text doesn’t explicitly address the keeping of the 4th commandment. You’re misusing the text. Second, in the passage, Jesus allows his disciples to break commandments. Third, no “warning” is issued by Jesus in the passage.

It’s illogical to assert that every human act of faith and devotion are outlined in or dictated by a bible that didn’t exist for most of human history. For example, there are no explicit instructions for the performance of either baptism or Eucharist. Nor are there any explicit instructions for worship or prayer. There is also no bible passage that expressly forbids the celebration of the Resurrection or worship on Sunday. And Paul tells us that all things are permissible.

You talk as though the 4th commandment is a matter of life and death. But it’s not permissible to do work on the Sabbath. Yet, if someone needed emergency surgery on the Sabbath, you’d be in favor of it. But there is no bible passage that explicitly permits such to happen. How do you explain your disobedience to the word of God? Conversely, if you were not in favor of the surgery, how do you explain your disobedience to Christ’s teaching to love and to help the sick?

Actually MATTHEW 15:2-9 does indeed address every one of God's 10 commandments that anyone breaks in order to follow man made teachings and tradtions that break God's commandments. JESUS says those who do these things are not following God but men.

 

[sojourner]

Sorry I do not know what your talking about. I asked you if you think God is in control of His own Word?

God’s not in control of us. What makes you think God would be in control of something we wrote?

I believe all scripture is given by inspiration of God

What you believe is immaterial. What is is what is real.

Thank you for proving my point. Your a teacher in a church that practices the occult teachings of Shamainism that does not believe the scriptures

False.

No one needs scholarship to interpret the bible once they have been given it in through own language. Interpretation or understanding of the scriptures comes from God alone

So, one does need scholarship then. Is that what you’re saying?

 

[sojourner]

Nonsense. The Church has always been based on the old and new teastament scriptures of the teachings of JESUS, the prophets and the Apostles. In the days of JESUS and the Apostles their bible was the old testament scriptures from which they give us their fulfillment in the new testament teachings of JESUS and the Apostles. God's church has always only ever been all those who believe and follow God's Word. Those who knowingly do not believe and follow God's Word I believe accoding to the scriptures are not God's Church.

There are no teachings of Jesus in the OT.

 

[sojourner]

Not at all your confused I was only emphasising a word to show through the scriprtures, that I do not beleive there is any truth in your statement and demonstrated why I believe this way. As posted to you and your friend earlier the Church has always been based on the old and new teastament scriptures of the teachings of JESUS, the prophets and the Apostles. In the days of JESUS and the Apostles their bible was the old testament scriptures from which they give us their fulfillment in the new testament teachings of JESUS and the Apostles. God's church has always only ever been all those who believe and follow God's Word. Those who knowingly do not believe and follow God's Word I believe accoding to the scriptures are not God's Church.

Ok, well, then you need to learn internet etiquette. Bold, capitalization, underlining and italics denote SHOUTING!

You’ve demonstrated nothing except your belief. Please provide evidence for your outburst.

 

[sojourner]

Goodness is this what you need to resort to. There was no mad -fit response. This is something you have made up in order to avoid answering the post and scriptures shared with you

Backpedal much? You know what the Bible says about lying.

 

[sojourner]

God does....

Then there should be an explicitly-stated standard that is evident and easy to follow. In what book, chapter and verse can that be found?

HOW DO WE KEEP THE SABBATH?

WHAT DOES GOD'S 4TH COMMANDMENT SAY?

EXODUS 20:8-11
[8], Remember the SABBATH DAY, to KEEP IT HOLY. <Why?> Because God made it Holy for mankind and commands us to keep it as a Holy day)
[9], Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work:
[10], But the SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: <WHY>
[11], For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the SEVENTH DAY: wherefore the LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH, and HALLOWED IT.

WHAT DAY IS GOD'S SABBATH?

v10 The SEVENTH DAY of the week. (Saturday)

WHEN DOES THE SEVENTH DAY OF THE WEEK START?

GENESIS 1:4-5
[4], And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
[5], And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

A day in God's time is the night (darkness) and the light make up one day. The DAY in God's WORD starts at SUNSET and ends the following SUNSET. So God's 4th Commandment Sabbath would start Friday at SUNSET and end Saturday at SUNSET.

Not pertinent to the question asked.

ALL UNECCESSARY WORK TO BE DONE BEFORE FRIDAY SUNSET

EXODUS 16:22-23
[22], And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses.
[23], And he said to them, This is that which the LORD has said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath to the LORD: bake that which you will bake to day, and seethe that you will seethe; and that which remains over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

MARK 15:42, And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath

Okay, so we can’t gather bread or bake.

How much then is a man better than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days

so, if someone is hungry and all you have is meal, it’s OK to bake. That completely discounts your statement above.

WHAT IS LAWFUL ON GOD'S SABBATH?

1. Remembering the creator and his creation (Exod 20:8-11)
2. Rest from all unnecessary work (Ecodus 20:10-11)
3. Doing good (Matt 12:12)
4. Prayer (Acts 16:13; Matt 21:13)
5. Worship the creator (Isaiah 58:13-14; Ex 34:14; 1KING 9:6; Rev 14:6-12)

Song, praise, bible study, helping others, preaching the gospel, resting, prayer, seeking God, remembering the creator and his creation. Walking in nature, going to church with like minded believers. (too many scriptures)

WHAT IS NOT LAWFUL ON GOD'S SABBATH?

WORK; all business and secular work as well as any domestic work; cooking, cleaning; shopping, buying and selling that can be done on any other day of the week and anything to do with work

Where’s the definitive list I asked for? Book, chapter, verse.

Oh, and what do we do when our work is preaching the Gospel? Presents a conundrum according to your criteria.

I don’t see anything here other than what you have “decided” these disparate verses mean. There is no definitive, explicit statement of criteria or list of activities. I asked for an explicit chapter and verse stating what is considered “necessary” and “unnecessary.” You’ve failed to provide that chapter and verse.

 

[sojourner]

Actually MATTHEW 15:2-9 does indeed address every one of God's 10 commandments that anyone breaks in order to follow man made teachings and tradtions that break God's commandments. JESUS says those who do these things are not following God but men.

Nope. No list. Sorry. This is nothing more than what you say the texts say. IOW, it’s a teaching of men, which you said we’re not supposed to follow.

 

[sojourner]

Your clutching at straws how Christ died is irrelavent. That he would die was always known from the foundation of the world.....

No. You said that God planned the crucifixion. You said that. You said this specifically about the crucifixion.

That everyone will die has always been known; we’re mortal, for Pete’s sake!! It’s not like only 60% of us will die at some point...
What a lame excuse for a “biblical” answer. Holy monkey!

 

[3rdAngel]

God’s not in control of us. What makes you think God would be in control of something we wrote? What you believe is immaterial. What is is what is real. False. So, one does need scholarship then. Is that what you’re saying?

God is indeed in control of what he wants fulfilled in this world. To deny this is simply to deny God. God's Word says all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness *2 TIMOTHY 3:16 and we are to live by every word of it *MATTHEW 4:4. No one needs scholarship to understand God's Word when it is God's promise to be our guide and teacher in His Word *JOHN 14:26; JOHN 16:13.....