3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Thanks for your advice dear friend. I am posting for those who want to know the proof and detail. Some posts are long and some short. You are free to read what you wish. Thanks for sharing your view though.
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Man made traditions from the Church or the Word of God - Who do you believe and follow?
- Thread starter 3rdAngel
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- lord's day sabbath sunday
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Are you judging your brother by claiming he did not know JESUS or have God's Spirit? How do you know he did not have God's guidence and leading though his Spirit? How do you worship yourself through God's Word and how can you know JESUS without the Word of God when JESUS is the living Word that the written Word of God points to and we can only know JESUS through faith in God's Word when faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God?
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Back to the OP....
The challenge I am putting up here in this OP is for anyone to show even one scripture that says God's 4th Commandment of the 10 commandments (Exodus 20:8-11) which was spoken and written by God himself to his people, has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday (or the first day of the week) as a Holy day.
Can anyone please show me where in all the bible does is say (SOLA SCRIPTURA; Scripture only please)...
1. That God's 4th commandments 7th day Sabbath has been abolished?
2. That Jesus is a Sabbath?
3. The Sabbath (seventh day) was ever changed from the seventh to the first day of the week?
4. Where we are told to keep the first day of the week holy?
5. Where the first day of the week (Sunday) is ever called a holy day?
6. That says that Jesus ever kept the first day (Sunday)?
7. That tells us to keep the first day in honour of the resurrection of Christ?
8. Where the first day is ever given any sacred name?
9. That affirms that any of the apostles ever kept the first day as the Sabbath?
10. From any apostolic writings that authorizes Sunday observance as the Sabbath of God?
11. Where we are told not to work on the first day of the week?
12. That says the seventh day is no longer God's Sabbath day?
13. That says the seventh day Sabbath is ABOLISHED?
14. Where the apostles ever taught any convert to keep the first day of the week as a Sabbath?
15. Where the first day was ever appointed to be kept as the Lord's Day?
16. Where the first day of the week is ever called the Lord's Day?
17. That says that the first day of the week was ever sanctified and hallowed as a day of rest?
18. That says that the Father or the Son (Jesus) rested on the first day of the week?
19. That says that Jesus, Paul or any other of the apostles taught anyone to observe the first day of the week as the Sabbath?
20. That calls the seventh day the “Jewish Sabbath” or one text that calls Sunday the “Christian Sabbath”?
21. Telling man to keep the first day of the week holy or to worship or rest on the first day of the week?
22. Authorizing anyone to set aside God's Sabbath and observe any other day?
23. Showing any of the apostles keeping the first day of the week as the Sabbath?
24. Authorizing someone to set aside the fourth Commandment and observe any other day of the week?
25. Where any apostle taught us to keep the first day of the week as the Sabbath?
26. Declaring that the seventh day is no longer the Eternal Sabbath day?
27. Where Sunday is now appointed to be kept as the New Testament Sabbath or holy day?
...................
Something to think about here because we are all accountable to God come judgment day where we will all be judged by the Word of God (John 12:47-48).
God's Word makes it very clear that if we follow the teachings of men over the Word of God we are not following God...
MATTHEW 15:3-9 [3],
[3], But he answered and said unto them, Why do you also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
[4], For God commanded, saying, Honor your father and mother: and, He that curses father or mother, let him die the death.
[5], But you say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift devoted to God, whatsoever you might have received from me;
[6], And honors not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have you made the commandment of God void by your tradition.
[7], You hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
[8], These people draw near unto me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
[9], But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
If we are KNOWINGLY breaking ANY of God's commandments we are not worshipping God.
The question is who are you following as a Christian, God or man?
Look forward to your thoughts...
The challenge I am putting up here in this OP is for anyone to show even one scripture that says God's 4th Commandment of the 10 commandments (Exodus 20:8-11) which was spoken and written by God himself to his people, has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday (or the first day of the week) as a Holy day.
Can anyone please show me where in all the bible does is say (SOLA SCRIPTURA; Scripture only please)...
1. That God's 4th commandments 7th day Sabbath has been abolished?
2. That Jesus is a Sabbath?
3. The Sabbath (seventh day) was ever changed from the seventh to the first day of the week?
4. Where we are told to keep the first day of the week holy?
5. Where the first day of the week (Sunday) is ever called a holy day?
6. That says that Jesus ever kept the first day (Sunday)?
7. That tells us to keep the first day in honour of the resurrection of Christ?
8. Where the first day is ever given any sacred name?
9. That affirms that any of the apostles ever kept the first day as the Sabbath?
10. From any apostolic writings that authorizes Sunday observance as the Sabbath of God?
11. Where we are told not to work on the first day of the week?
12. That says the seventh day is no longer God's Sabbath day?
13. That says the seventh day Sabbath is ABOLISHED?
14. Where the apostles ever taught any convert to keep the first day of the week as a Sabbath?
15. Where the first day was ever appointed to be kept as the Lord's Day?
16. Where the first day of the week is ever called the Lord's Day?
17. That says that the first day of the week was ever sanctified and hallowed as a day of rest?
18. That says that the Father or the Son (Jesus) rested on the first day of the week?
19. That says that Jesus, Paul or any other of the apostles taught anyone to observe the first day of the week as the Sabbath?
20. That calls the seventh day the “Jewish Sabbath” or one text that calls Sunday the “Christian Sabbath”?
21. Telling man to keep the first day of the week holy or to worship or rest on the first day of the week?
22. Authorizing anyone to set aside God's Sabbath and observe any other day?
23. Showing any of the apostles keeping the first day of the week as the Sabbath?
24. Authorizing someone to set aside the fourth Commandment and observe any other day of the week?
25. Where any apostle taught us to keep the first day of the week as the Sabbath?
26. Declaring that the seventh day is no longer the Eternal Sabbath day?
27. Where Sunday is now appointed to be kept as the New Testament Sabbath or holy day?
...................
Something to think about here because we are all accountable to God come judgment day where we will all be judged by the Word of God (John 12:47-48).
God's Word makes it very clear that if we follow the teachings of men over the Word of God we are not following God...
MATTHEW 15:3-9 [3],
[3], But he answered and said unto them, Why do you also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
[4], For God commanded, saying, Honor your father and mother: and, He that curses father or mother, let him die the death.
[5], But you say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift devoted to God, whatsoever you might have received from me;
[6], And honors not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have you made the commandment of God void by your tradition.
[7], You hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
[8], These people draw near unto me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
[9], But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
If we are KNOWINGLY breaking ANY of God's commandments we are not worshipping God.
The question is who are you following as a Christian, God or man?
Look forward to your thoughts...
Romans 14 instructs Christians to either set aside a day as holy or not according to their own conscience, and condemns the passing of judgment on other believers based on divisive issues like this or permitted foods.
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
For whom was Exodus written?
Exodus 20:1-11 New International Version (NIV)
And God spoke all these words:
“I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
“You shall have no other gods before me.
“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
“You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
Was Exodus' decrees given by God to:
- The Chinese?
- The Egyptians?
- The Incas?
- Or for just one group of people - the ones who were taken out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
Deuteronomy 7:6-9 New International Version (NIV)
For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.
The Lord did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. But it was because the Lord loved you and kept the oath he swore to your ancestors that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt. Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments.
So these group of people are few of all peoples - so that cancels the Chinese out
God kept the oath swore to their ancestors [Abraham, Isaac and so on] - that cancels the Incas
Redeemed them from the land of slavery, Egypt - that cancels the Egyptians out
So who is this few of all peoples which the Bible said must observe the commandments of God including the Sabbath?
Exodus 31:13 New International Version (NIV)
“Say to the Israelites, ‘You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the Lord, who makes you holy.
So what is an Israelite???
The Israelites (/ˈɪzriəlaɪts/; Hebrew: בני ישראל Bnei Yisra'el)[1] were a confederation of Iron Age Semitic-speaking tribes of the ancient Near East, who inhabited a part of Canaan during the tribal and monarchic periods. According to the religious narrative of the Hebrew Bible, the Israelites' origin is traced back to the Biblical patriarchs and matriarchs Abraham and his wife Sarah, through their son Isaac and his wife Rebecca, and their son Jacob who was later called Israel, whence they derive their name, with his wives Leah and Rachel and the handmaids Zilpa and Bilhah.
Israelites - Wikipedia
Native Americans are not Israelites
Mixed races are not Israelites
White race are not Israelites
Asians are not Israelites
Blacks are not Israelites
and so on
Hence if a group of people are not Israelites, then there is no reason why the Sabbath is to be observed by these people when these do not apply to them. In short, the Sabbath does not apply to Christians because these are only applicable to the Israelites [which is a race, not a religious organization not a church].
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Hi 9-10ths_Penguin nice to meet you. Actually, Romans 14 says nothing about Gods' 4th commandment Sabbath. It is talking about eating and not eating on days that men esteem over other days and judging others. Don't beleive everything your church teaches you.
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3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
For whom was Exodus written?
Exodus 20:1-11 New International Version (NIV)
And God spoke all these words:
“I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
“You shall have no other gods before me.
“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
“You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
View attachment 41533View attachment 41534View attachment 41535
Was Exodus' decrees given by God to:
Who is this group of people mentioned in the Bible tasked to obey the commandments of God including the Sabbath?
- The Chinese?
- The Egyptians?
- The Incas?
- Or for just one group of people - the ones who were taken out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
Deuteronomy 7:6-9 New International Version (NIV)
For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.
The Lord did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. But it was because the Lord loved you and kept the oath he swore to your ancestors that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt. Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments.
So these group of people are few of all peoples - so that cancels the Chinese out
God kept the oath swore to their ancestors [Abraham, Isaac and so on] - that cancels the Incas
Redeemed them from the land of slavery, Egypt - that cancels the Egyptians out
So who is this few of all peoples which the Bible said must observe the commandments of God including the Sabbath?
Exodus 31:13 New International Version (NIV)
“Say to the Israelites, ‘You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the Lord, who makes you holy.
So what is an Israelite???
The Israelites (/ˈɪzriəlaɪts/; Hebrew: בני ישראל Bnei Yisra'el)[1] were a confederation of Iron Age Semitic-speaking tribes of the ancient Near East, who inhabited a part of Canaan during the tribal and monarchic periods. According to the religious narrative of the Hebrew Bible, the Israelites' origin is traced back to the Biblical patriarchs and matriarchs Abraham and his wife Sarah, through their son Isaac and his wife Rebecca, and their son Jacob who was later called Israel, whence they derive their name, with his wives Leah and Rachel and the handmaids Zilpa and Bilhah.
Israelites - Wikipedia
Native Americans are not Israelites
Mixed races are not Israelites
White race are not Israelites
Asians are not Israelites
Blacks are not Israelites
and so on
Hence if a group of people are not Israelites, then there is no reason why the Sabbath is to be observed by these people when these do not apply to them. In short, the Sabbath does not apply to Christians because these are only applicable to the Israelites [which is a race, not a religious organization not a church].
Ok if you follow your argument through then, all Christians are free to go out and murder each other, commit adultery, lie, steal, take God's name in vain, make idols and bow down and worship them. According to the scriptures in the new covenant, if you break one of them you break them all *JAMES 2:10-11. You do not believe Christian are free to go out and kill each other now do you? Where your argument falls down further according to Gods' Word is that in the new covenant there is no more JEW or gentile believers ROMANS 3:28-29 all are one in Christ. God's ISRAEL is not those of the flesh but of the Spirit *ROMANS 9:6-8, gentiles are now grafted in *ROMANS 11:13-27. More detailed scripture reposnse here if anyone is interested.
Hope this helps.
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3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
I believe that the perspective here is that the Sabbath is one of God's 10 commandments that give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7. According to the scriptures if we break anyone of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11; 1 JOHN 3:4. According to the scriptures all those who practice known unrepentant sin do not enter into the kingdom of heaven because they reject the free gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing *HEBREWS 10:26-31.
Hope this helps to add the perspective.
exchemist
Veteran Member
No it just confirms your lack of it.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Ok thanks for your perspective but sorry it is not mine
Not to you, at least.
Have you read the passage?
Funny. More advice for you than for me, I think.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Well thankyou dear friend yes I have read the passage. That is why I posted earlier that there is no mention of the Sabbath or anyone of God's 10 commandments in Romans 14 and that Romans 14 is talking about eating and not eating on days that men esteem over other days and judging others. It is not talking about what days God esteems. What men esteem is an abomination to God. Can you show me a single scripture proving that Romans 14:5 is talking about God's 4th commandment? You have to read that into the scriptures what it is not saying to claim that one.
sealchan
Well-Known Member
Maybe the only way to assail your OP is to challenge the premise...can you prove that God wrote the Ten Commandments and not man and also prove that the entire Bible was not the product of man without recourse to the problem of self-reference?
Much of the Bible demonstrates that God's Word is something that people mouth but the hearts of the "mouthers" are far from Him. From Adam and Eve and Cain on down...
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Sure no problem. According to the scriptures....
EXODUS 32:16 And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven on the tables.
2 TIMOTHY 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
MATTHEW 4:4 Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.
Ten commandments....
EXODUS 20:1, And God spoke all these words, saying.....
................
Hope this helps
sealchan
Well-Known Member
That doesn't work because you haven't avoided the problem of self-reference...you used the Bible to claim a basis for the Bible to be an ultimate authority. Self-reference.
You need to establish that the Ten Commandments, or any part of the Bible, is directly written by God WITHOUT using the Bible as your authorative reference...at least to get past this particular logical issue of credibility.
There is so much evidence that indicates that the Bible was written by humans and inspired in large part by sources outside the local tradition that it is really unlikely to be true that the Bible or any part of it was written directly without primarily it being the understanding of God by some human being or beings.
So for me this thread is mostly irrelevant because it cannot establish a basis for truth outside of the self-referential axiom, truth is what the Bible says because the Bible is true.
Feel free to ignore this if it is outside the scope of your post.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Sure it works. I believe you were provided God's Word and the scriptures provided are God's Word not my words but Gods that state that God both wrote with his own finger on two talbes of stone and spoke the 10 commandments persoanally to His people. This is evidence that what has been shared with you is not simply my own opinion but God's Word. Soo your a Christian that does not believe the bible is the Word of God? How are you a christian when Christians are only saved by grace through faith in God's Word if you do not believe the scriptures and God's salvation is only be faith in the scriptures? This threads basis for truth is the very scriptures you deny that have already been provided.
Hope this helps
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sealchan
Well-Known Member
God's Word can come in many forms. I see the Bible as being a concentrated resource for hearing God's Word. But God's Word is always heard within and not without and technically the Bible is a "without". We know that most of the Bible was written by various people...Moses wrote this part, a prophet wrote that part, etc. This is traditionally accepted to be true. Modern research in archeology and other areas shows little to no evidence for the existence of many of these authors, especially the earlier ones from the Torah. Also it is evident that the stories and the laws in the Bible can be found in other cultural works from a time before the books of the Bible were written. Textual analysis, furthermore, indicates that the oldest stories were written around the time of the exile. The stories have deep similarities to stories from other cultures like Egypt or India and this suggests that the exiled Jews living near the great libraries of their conquering empire had access to these stories.
Given all of this developing information which has a great deal of evidential and even scientific support, what is a Christian who has always assumed that the Bible was literal history to do? There is much wisdom in the Bible as is evident to Christians and non-Christians a like but this is not enough for most people to say "I believe".
One of the often overlooked ideas in "book-based" Christianity is the idea of experiencing or communicating with God directly. Over the last many years I worked on a close study of Genesis chapter by chapter. In Genesis, as I am sure you are aware, there are many examples of individuals who encounter God directly. They speak to Him or stand in His presence or witness some miraculous event such as a convenient parting of the waters or a burning bush. When I read these things closely and reflected on my own life and how it was that I became a believer having initially been an atheist I realized that these stories had deep similarities with my own experience. Abraham's conversion by God is a big one for me because I can see parallels in that story to my own experience. Being one who has studied dreams I can see that not only myself but many others have had these sorts of experiences, the very sort that is used to explain Abraham's developing relationship with God.
I explore this in detail in this thread on this forum: The God Dream
In short God is real as a universal (objective) psychological experience not as a literal, physically tangible being for which we will ever find any physical evidence such as a miracle "written in stone". It is entirely possible to experience God outside of just reading the Bible. My own experience of God came after I had very recently read the Bible so obviously the Bible is critically important. But in cultures that don't teach the Bible other people also believe in God although in a much different way. So my belief as a Christian is in part dependent on the fact that I was born and raised within a Christian culture.
Belief in God or the saving power of Christ is, in my view, superficial if it is only based on the Bible. It must also, critically, be based on one's personal, subjective experience. Your very life must test and be a testament to the truth of the Word and of the many stories in the Bible. It must also, in all sincerity and credibility, be tested by the facts of good scholarship and science. No one can profess to be sincere and get on a forum like this using all the science based technology and say that science is merely "man's word" and is not itself the very Word of God IMO.
You have clearly stated your position and it is one that perhaps millions of Christians believe. However, there is a problem in Christianity these days with diminishing interest and belief and I believe that this has to do with the fact that the churches don't really understand human psychology, myth and the modern experience. Science is bringing changes to our lives which include new knowledge of God's creation and a greater awareness of others beyond our local communities. Christianity in many places in the U.S. especially has become a sort of backwater of local, tribal attitudes and has turned against evidential and even scientific knowledge because of the problems that such knowledge has raised for Christians...namely the historicity of the Bible.
But I believe in the Bible, I believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins (but how I believe that is another long story) and I believe that Christianity (and other religions in their works) holds a unique and essential truth for those who also believe, but not just believe...have actually directly experienced!
Again, I apologize if this is off track for this thread. I got a notification from Religious Forums in an email about this thread out of the blue although I have not participated here in a while, and I felt called to enter the challenge of what this thread proposed. But it wouldn't be the first time a thread went off track.
Thank you for listening.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe it is as Jesus said: "a person is judged by his words."
I believe if he is saying he only knows Jesus by the Bible then he isn't being guided by the Holy Spirit.
I believe a person sees himself as the word of God instead of God as the Word of God.
I believe one get to know that one can know Jesus personally by reading the word but once one can communicate with God one knows Jesus without the Bible being present.
I believe that is true and living is done now not 2000 years ago.
Matt 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Muffled
Jesus in me
Rom. 14:5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike.
I believe a person with eyes can see there is nothing about eating in this verse>