Man sentenced to death for sorcery.

[AxisMundi]

Why don' you prove the presence of spaghetti monsters.How can anyone prove the absence of non-existent object?

heathen, when you feel the whipping of His noodly appendages, you will tremble in fear...

 

[maro]

More specifically, the issue here is that a man with five children has been sentenced to death, for supposedly using witchcraft or genies, much like the characters in Harry Potter or Disney's Aladdin.

oh..if that will make you feel better..our belief in magic is not based on harry potter or aladdin ,but on the Quran ,the word of God

 

[AxisMundi]

yes, i do. that's why i would not go to China. any reason why i can't see any reaction to executions China apply on Muslims? we can discuss one man's execution for pages. i don't know how many Musim were executed, how many Muslim girls were forcely taken away from their home, how many young Muslims are forced to work free as slaves...etc. though there is no reaction from you, is there? i am tired of this kind of conversation. you either stand for all human's rights or you don't. maybe Muslims would pay more attention when those rights were applied to Muslims as well. so excuse me. go find yourself another one to play this game with

.

Muslims in China, of which there is a population of 20 to 30 million, face no more religious prosecution than any other religion.

Please cite credible news sources on those Muslims girls forcibly taken away (because they were Muslims), Muslims forced to work as slaves (because they were Muslims), etc. and then we can have a conversation about such atrocities.

 

[maro]

Technically no. What I would say is there are innumerable cases of alleged magic and countless cases of fraud or misapprehension have been demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt. However, not one case of the influence of magical powers, or demons, etc. has been demonstrated beyond doubt.

For example, I can't prove that there has never, and will never, be a crop circle created by aliens. What I can prove is that people have confessed to making crop circles, originally as pranks. I can demonstrate how easy it is to make elaborate crop circles without anyone noticing. I can document dozens and dozens of cases of known fraud. And I can say that there is not a shred of reliable, physical evidence aliens were involved -- no alien technology left behind, no previously-unknowable messages in the circles (like the coordinates of an undiscovered star system), no exotic materials (like their clothes or trash or food), no alien ships, no bodies, no reliable radio or video or photos, no microbes or cells or hair from their bodies.

And of course, as in all superstitions: it only works when skeptics are not looking. When skeptics are there, or a video camera is set up to watch the field, the aliens don't appear..

I see...so science didn't disprove that magical powers exist....but there is just no evidence they exist ,yet....then what makes you so confident and not skeptic regarding their exitance ?

Isn't it possible that the future will reveal new evidence ? or just because it's in the religious scripts ,it must be wrong ,even if science didn't declare this ?

Honestly , your confident tone while talking about the "superstitious nonsense " gave me the impression that magic was scietifically disproved and it was something taken for granted

I ,personally ,think you should lower the confidence in your tone a little bit....you might learn something new ,then.....may be no single case hasn't been demonstrated because the approach is just not correct...it's a possibility ,No ?

A lot of stuff were taken for granted at a time , in the name of science , and then the same scieince you believe in , proved them to be "superstitious nonsense "...No?

I have no problem with your scietific approach...my problem arises when people think they know enough to make judgments about things they probably don't know enough about...my problem arises when certainity replaces skepticism in science

 

[CoolSunshine]

yes, i do. that's why i would not go to China. any reason why i can't see any reaction to executions China apply on Muslims? we can discuss one man's execution for pages. i don't know how many Musim were executed, how many Muslim girls were forcely taken away from their home, how many young Muslims are forced to work free as slaves...etc. though there is no reaction from you, is there? i am tired of this kind of conversation. you either stand for all human's rights or you don't. maybe Muslims would pay more attention when those rights were applied to Muslims as well. so excuse me. go find yourself another one to play this game with

.

How on earth is China related to South Korea?I denounce the communist regime of China which neither secular nor democratic.Pardon me for my ignorance,I need to know what prevents from some Muslims from denouncing heinous acts like death sentence for sorcerers on public forums ?

I am not accusing you or some other members here for these acts of corrupt government ,but you are obliged to provide details on how this act is Islamic and in what way it is justified.

 

[maro]

I think it would be unfair to automatically assume any Westerner here who is shocked by this execution, believes Saudi Arabia should be threatened by force over this issue, or something insane like that. Whoever said the words you quoted, surely they meant diplomatic pressure? I could be wrong.

and why do you think you should use diplomatic pressure or any pressure at all to make me apply your own standards ? what gives you the right to impose them by any means at all ?

what do you think of an islamic country using diplomatic pressure on other non islamic countries to ban alcohol and sodomy ? is this acceptable ?

Actually ,the "arrogance " lies in the word "pressure" itself

I don't need to give you evidence because it's revelation, etc. It seems you have two things in common with them: certainty, and lack of evidence.

of course i myself need evidence to believe in the revealation on the first place....but once i believe in the revealtion ,i don't need evidence for every single word in it

So ,if you want evidence that the quran in the divine revealtion to humanity...it's out there....but if you want evidence for every single word in it....i can't promise you ,honestly

 

[gnomon]

I see...so science didn't disprove that magical powers exist....but there is just no evidence they exist ,yet....then what makes you so confident and not skeptic regarding their exitance ?

Isn't it possible that the future will reveal new evidence ? or just because it's in the religious scripts ,it must be wrong ,even if science didn't declare this ?

Honestly , your confident tone while talking about the "superstitious nonsense " gave me the impression that magic was scietifically disproved and it was something taken for granted

I ,personally ,think you should lower the confidence in your tone a little bit....you might learn something new ,then.....may be no single case hasn't been demonstrated because the approach is just not correct...it's a possibility ,No ?

A lot of stuff were taken for granted at a time , in the name of science , and then the same scieince you believe in , proved them to be "superstitious nonsense "...No?

I have no problem with your scietific approach...my problem arises when people think they know enough to make judgments about things they probably don't know enough about...my problem arises when certainity replaces skepticism in science

Yes, since science has not disproven magical abilities and super powers it's far better to err on respecting a belief system that is going to kill someone on unfounded evidence.

It would be a mistake to allow this individual to continue to exist in order to appease those who will not show proper respect for religious and cultural beliefs. They need to keep their noses and opinions out of it.

The book says it. That's how it shall be. They cannot be certain. The book is. Why? Because it's in the book.

 

[maro]

Does the Quran say that Mr. Sibat has magical powers? No. It must be proved

sure..and it has been proved....them man was caught with the money he took for doing magic...and with the tools usually used by magicians....and also ,he confessed

if we found a dead body on the floor...and someone next to it , with a bloody knife in his hand ..what are we supposed to think ? that he did it ,right ? and you probably will accept that because you believe "murder" exists....we don't have to prove "murder" for you first....we only need to prove that the man did it..which is much easier

considering that we believe magic exists ,and this is a fact for us , i see the evidence that the man was practicing it very satisfying.....and considering that you don't believe magic exists , no amount of proof will be satisfactory for you....and this is not really our problem ,it's yours

I feel almost certain I know people who are Muslim and who do not believe in magic or jinns.

I believe you also know muslims who believe extramarital sex is okay...and dating non muslims is also fine...right ?
The type of muslims you know are very interesting really...probably "enlightened" or "liberal " or " progressive "

if you are looking forward for all muslims to be as *progressive* and *enlightened * as your friends...you will be extremely disappointed ,i am afraid...live with it

 

[TashaN]

Okay so let's talk about the case at hand. What were the "tools" found in this man's possession? (Did I somehow miss this?)
A confession is evidence, but it is not proof beyond a reasonable doubt. There are cases of people confessing to crimes they did not commit, I can cite specific cases if you like.
Does the Quran say that Mr. Sibat has magical powers? No. It must be proved.
I'm concerned that five children are going to lose their father because the Saudi legal system thinks Harry Potter is nonfiction.
This is according to human rights organization Amnesty International, the same human rights organization that denounces the U.S. for Guantanamo and Israel for the occupied territories, among other abuses in the world:

'Ali Hussain Sibat was arrested by the Mutawa'een (religious police) on charges of "sorcery" in May 2008 while he was in Saudi Arabia to perform a form of Muslim pilgrimage, the 'umra.

His lawyer in Lebanon believes that 'Ali Hussain Sibat was arrested because members of the Mutawa'een had recognized him from the show, which was broadcast on the Sheherazade TV station.

After he was arrested, 'Ali Hussain Sibat's interrogators told him to write down what he did for a living, reassuring him that, if he did so, he would be allowed to go home after a few weeks.

This document was presented in court as a "confession" and used to convict him.

He was sentenced to death by a court in Madina on 9 November 2009 after secret court hearings where he had no legal representation or assistance.
​

Saudi Arabia 'sorcery' death sentence upheld | Amnesty International
Okay I am skeptical, but let's suppose this is true. At most, it would be evidence Mr. Sibat believes in this superstition. It would not prove that anyone was actually harmed by this or was in any danger of being harmed. The man could be superstitious or eccentric, or even a little bit mentally deranged.
Yes but we have learned things since the 7th century, believe it or not.

They had enough proofs to charge him with such a crime and that's all i can say. I don't have the police report or anything of that sort.

They did a good job in catching him. It will send a message to those who think they can come to Saudi Arabia to harm people and get away with it.

Those who are afraid of the Saudi law shouldn't apply for it's visa, period.

Indeed... that does not change that the people voted with the intention of changing it...

There is no personal hypocrisy for someone who is against the improper acts conducted within their own community to also denounce improper acts without.

Also, thank you for correcting what I read on CNN...

Don't mention it.

 

[.lava]

Muslims in China, of which there is a population of 20 to 30 million, face no more religious prosecution than any other religion.

Please cite credible news sources on those Muslims girls forcibly taken away (because they were Muslims), Muslims forced to work as slaves (because they were Muslims), etc. and then we can have a conversation about such atrocities.

i suggest you to reread the last sentence of my reply. i don't you well enough. you're sort of new member to me. therefor i would say, i am here, i am here to share and exchange. if you sincerely want to talk about stuff, i am OK with it. but in a thread that's titled like that and as usual it's turned into another "war on Islam" discussion, here you can't get me talk. because there is basicly nothing to say. nothing except i am a Muslim and you may take my life but you can't take my faith, period. you may want to talk about Uygur Turks for instance but, you see, it has nothing to do with sorcery and judgement of Arabia

.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

heathen, when you feel the whipping of His noodly appendages, you will tremble in fear...

That looks like the Flying Spaghetti Monster!

Be not afraid, ye patrons of the sauce.

 

[AxisMundi]

:angel2:

I see...so science didn't disprove that magical powers exist....but there is just no evidence they exist ,yet....then what makes you so confident and not skeptic regarding their exitance ?

Isn't it possible that the future will reveal new evidence ? or just because it's in the religious scripts ,it must be wrong ,even if science didn't declare this ?

Honestly , your confident tone while talking about the "superstitious nonsense " gave me the impression that magic was scietifically disproved and it was something taken for granted

I ,personally ,think you should lower the confidence in your tone a little bit....you might learn something new ,then.....may be no single case hasn't been demonstrated because the approach is just not correct...it's a possibility ,No ?

A lot of stuff were taken for granted at a time , in the name of science , and then the same scieince you believe in , proved them to be "superstitious nonsense "...No?

I have no problem with your scietific approach...my problem arises when people think they know enough to make judgments about things they probably don't know enough about...my problem arises when certainity replaces skepticism in science

Please cite peer-reviewed clinical research proving that witchcraft/sorcery is real.

Considering that scriptures claim quite a bit that science shows is wrong, such as a WWF, the fact that there is no credible scientific findings proving sorcery is real illustrates another religious myth.

 

[AxisMundi]

i suggest you to reread the last sentence of my reply. i don't you well enough. you're sort of new member to me. therefor i would say, i am here, i am here to share and exchange. if you sincerely want to talk about stuff, i am OK with it. but in a thread that's titled like that and as usual it's turned into another "war on Islam" discussion, here you can't get me talk. because there is basicly nothing to say. nothing except i am a Muslim and you may take my life but you can't take my faith, period. you may want to talk about Uygur Turks for instance but, you see, it has nothing to do with sorcery and judgement of Arabia

.

So, in other words, you canot justify your remarks, nor can you justify Islamic Law over secular law, nor can you justify killing a man for something as ridiculious as "sorcery".

 

[CoolSunshine]

So, in other words, you canot justify your remarks, nor can you justify Islamic Law over secular law, nor can you justify killing a man for something as ridiculious as "sorcery".

Remember Islam is the only correct religion .What about Flying Spaghetti Monster then ?

 

[AxisMundi]

That looks like the Flying Spaghetti Monster!

Be not afraid, ye patrons of the sauce.

It is indeed a visage of the mighty FSM, who deigned to show himself to the unbeliever in hopes that they would see the true way.

Revel as he turns his meatball gaze towards thee!

 

[.lava]

So, in other words, you canot justify your remarks, nor can you justify Islamic Law over secular law, nor can you justify killing a man for something as ridiculious as "sorcery".

ah i am so tempted. don't take this as i am challenging you. i invite you to ask me anything you want. i hope you choose friendly manners over "whatever" and please, one step at a time, OK?

.

 

[AxisMundi]

Remember Islam is the only correct religion just like Flying Spaghetti Monster! .

Where do I send the dry cleaning bill to?

You got sarcasm ALL over the place.

 

[Kerr]

If you say that there is no God,you should be able to prove it.But you cannot.Hence, Islamic rule is the best option.If you want secular law,then show us how Allah doesn't exist.

Why Islamic law? Why not... some other religions law?

Just got curious .

 

[AxisMundi]

If you say that there is no God,you should be able to prove it.But you cannot.Hence, Islamic rule is the best option.If you want secular law,then show us how Allah doesn't exist.

The burden of proof is on you.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I see...so science didn't disprove that magical powers exist....but there is just no evidence they exist ,yet....then what makes you so confident and not skeptic regarding their exitance ?

Isn't it possible that the future will reveal new evidence ? or just because it's in the religious scripts ,it must be wrong ,even if science didn't declare this ?

These are great questions. To answer your questions: yes, it's possible. No, it's not wrong just because it's in religious scripts. It's wrong because the evidence is against it.

What makes me so confident? I am not 100% confident. But I do accept a hypothesis that virtually every reputable scientist accepts, because an enormous body of research supports it. It's important to consider the fact that we can never prove a negative, for anything. So sure, we can't prove there will NEVER be a case of real magic. But we also can't prove we will NEVER find the mer-people living in their underwater Lost City of Atlantis. What we can do, is form a hypothesis and compare it with the facts. Here's my hypothesis: supposed cases of "magic" or jinns, or sightings of mermaids from Atlantis for that matter, are cases of fraud, misapprehension, hallucination, etc. This is a bold hypothesis, but that's okay, scientists are allowed to pose bold hypotheses, like "energy is ALWAYS conserved" or "DNA is the fundamental building block of ALL life". In fact, it's good to pose a bold hypothesis because then the goal of research is straightforward, to try to test and disprove the hypothesis. It's also okay to have confidence in bold hypotheses IF the evidence is strong, and IF we are willing to reject or modify the hypothesis in the event that new evidence calls for this.

What I am telling you (and I do not expect you to take my word for it) is that a huge body of research, spanning hundreds of years, supports my hypothesis. It would only take a single case to disprove it, yet in case after case after case, the hypothesis is confirmed. Now, suppose there was ONE case of magic where the evidence was practically indisputable. I would be extremely excited and thrilled, it would be an astounding discovery, IF the evidence was sound. Then we would have to modify the hypothesis to fit the new discovery. We would say, cases of supposed "magic" are VERY OFTEN cases of fraud, etc. but in one case it was real, and there could be more real cases. It would STILL be prudent to regard every new accusation of "magic" with a lot of skepticism, because the facts STILL show that fraud is extremely common and magic, though it may exist, is extremely rare. This was the conclusion enlightened doctors, archbishops, judges, kings, and scientists began to accept in Renaissance Europe. This was a result of the Church and secular authorities systematically and somewhat scientifically examining cases of supposed werewolves, vampires, witches and demonic possession.

In the modern era of electronic video and audio recording, science, and high literacy and education among common people, claims of witchcraft and demon possession have dramatically dropped EXCEPT in cultures in Africa and the Middle East where it is still believed. Isn't that curious? Why were the skies of Medieval Christian Europe at one time full of thousands of witches, so they darkened the sky (according to one eyewitness account) like bats flying out of a cave? Now that practically everyone in the Netherlands has photo or video on their cell phones, now that people no longer believe in witchcraft, the witches have stopped flying. Isn't that peculiar?

Honestly , your confident tone while talking about the "superstitious nonsense " gave me the impression that magic was scietifically disproved and it was something taken for granted

It has practically been disproved and this is taken for granted. I said "technically" it has not been disproved because we can never prove a negative. Let me put it this way: in terms of the scientific evidence, magic and jinns have the same status as UFO abductions, bigfoot, or the Loch Ness Monster. The real research and the real controversy now is about belief in these things, why so many people believe in them, how we deceive ourselves, how beliefs spread, the psychology of hallucinations, etc.

I ,personally ,think you should lower the confidence in your tone a little bit....you might learn something new ,then.....may be no single case hasn't been demonstrated because the approach is just not correct...it's a possibility ,No ?

Yes, it's a possibility. But no, I won't learn anything new by changing my tone. I will learn something new if I see new evidence. And so will you, unless it's evidence that contradicts your revelation because according to you evidence is secondary. Am I wrong?

A lot of stuff were taken for granted at a time , in the name of science , and then the same scieince you believe in , proved them to be "superstitious nonsense "...No?

You are absolutely correct.

I have no problem with your scietific approach...my problem arises when people think they know enough to make judgments about things they probably don't know enough about...my problem arises when certainity replaces skepticism in science

Again I agree with you. In this particular issue, I don't think you could accuse me of doing that. But maybe it's my fault, maybe I've spent too much time restating my conclusions and not enough time giving you specific examples and facts.

So here's another example, it doesn't prove my case at all, but it's a useful piece. The following is a brief summary of the research that has been done on the accuracy of eyewitness testimony, given by a professor of psychology at Stanford University ..... in our context, this is very useful research, because usually trials convicting people of witchcraft or jinns rest on eyewitness testimony, just like accounts of the Loch Ness Monster or UFO abductions:

Several studies have been conducted on human memory and on subjects’ propensity to remember erroneously events and details that did not occur. Elizabeth Loftus performed experiments in the mid-seventies demonstrating the effect of a third party’s introducing false facts into memory.4 Subjects were shown a slide of a car at an intersection with either a yield sign or a stop sign. Experimenters asked participants questions, falsely introducing the term "stop sign" into the question instead of referring to the yield sign participants had actually seen. Similarly, experimenters falsely substituted the term "yield sign" in questions directed to participants who had actually seen the stop sign slide. The results indicated that subjects remembered seeing the false image. In the initial part of the experiment, subjects also viewed a slide showing a car accident. Some subjects were later asked how fast the cars were traveling when they "hit" each other, others were asked how fast the cars were traveling when they "smashed" into each other. Those subjects questioned using the word "smashed" were more likely to report having seen broken glass in the original slide. The introduction of false cues altered participants’ memories.
...
Experiments conducted by Barbara Tversky and Elizabeth Marsh corroborate the vulnerability of human memory to bias.7 In one group of studies, participants were given the "Roommate Story," a description of incidents involving his or her two fictitious roommates. The incidents were categorized as annoying, neutral, or socially "cool." Later, participants were asked to neutrally recount the incidents with one roommate, to write a letter of recommendation for one roommate’s application to a fraternity or sorority, or to write a letter to the office of student housing requesting the removal of one of the roommates. When later asked to recount the original story, participants who had written biased letters recalled more of the annoying or "cool" incidents associated with their letters. They also included more elaborations consistent with their bias. These participants made judgements based upon the annoying or social events they discussed in their letters. Neutral participants made few elaborations, and they also made fewer errors in their retelling, such as attributing events to the wrong roommate. The study also showed that participants writing biased letters recalled more biased information for the character they wrote about, whereas the other roommate was viewed neutrally.

Memory is affected by retelling, and we rarely tell a story in a neutral fashion. By tailoring our stories to our listeners, our bias distorts the very formation of memory—even without the introduction of misinformation by a third party. The protections of the judicial system against prosecutors and police "assisting" a witness’ memory may not sufficiently ensure the accuracy of those memories. Even though prosecutors refrain from "refreshing" witness A’s memory by showing her witness B’s testimony, the mere act of telling prosecutors what happened may bias and distort the witness’s memory. Eyewitness testimony, then, is innately suspect.

The Problem With Eyewitness Testimony