Man sentenced to death for sorcery.

[Comicaze247]

TV presenter gets death sentence for 'sorcery' - CNN.com

It's rather embarrassing that such a culture still exists in the modern world.

That's just friggin' ridiculous.

It makes me wonder. If the Biblical Jesus really did return, would anyone really believe he's Jesus if they crucify anyone for just telling fortunes?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I was speaking about your background, being an atheist, that will prevent you from seeing how religion can work well in the state affairs. You will just reject the whole idea of laws coming from God which should be applied in our lives. Can you see my point now?

I see your point but lots of religious people would agree with Caladan. I celebrated a friend's birthday yesterday, he's Muslim and he's from Iran. He knows what it's like to live in a country where religion and government are the same. He feels very strongly that religion should be separate from state affairs. He said he thinks that is the problem in Iran.

That's his opinion, but I think it just shows this issue transcends the issue of being an atheist or not. And of course most Americans and Europeans who said the laws of the state do not come directly from God, they believed in God.

 

[maro]

It sounds like you want to hear cases about jinns, specifically.

Tell me specifically, what did you have in mind?

Scientific papers on other kinds of magic can be found, just tell me what you want.

My fault , I should have defined what i mean by magic before i ask for scientific evidence that disproves it....it was obvious from the start that we don't think of the same thing when we talk about magic ,but i have just realized that

The magic that is practiced here ,where i live , is believed to be certain spells that can affect someone emotionally ,mentally and possibly physically....That's it

I searched for an article explaining the effects magic could possibly have from an islamic persepctive....but i couldn't find one that satisfies me...probably because the quranic referal to the topic is very brief and not detailed . and it's to be mentioned that this briefness didn't satify the curiousity of some people and they allowed their imagination to make up some stuff that have no quranic basis

I find some excuse for you now ,if all what was coming to your mind while we were talking was harry potter or the lord of the rings...but i wasn't paying attention to this point earlier

Anyway ,those spells aren't believed to be a specific gift for some people..but something that can be learned by anyone...and also they are not believed to go against the natural laws ,but to use them somehow to affect one's mental and psycological state

you said that psycologists are one group that didn't give up on its studing...and i believe they are the right group ,considering my definition of magic as believed to be practiced in my culture

Usually when someone shows specific weird symtoms here...people resort to psychatrists and certain pious people who are able to break a spell....in many cases ,the person improves on drugs prescribed by doctors....and in other cases , breaking the spell is the only thing that works for him

Are you aware of a similar phenomenon that was tested before ? . i personally think that it's very difficult if not impossible to test it for a number of reasons...first ,sorcerers are not interested in being tested...they usually keep their work a secret....second ,we don't believe that every time a spell is casted on someone...it will necessarily causes him harm

and my other question to you ,do you find the idea that certain external phenomena can affect one's clarity of thinking and emotional state scientifically acceptable considering that it was already documented in some psychatric phenomena like the seasonal variation of the mood ,for example ?

 

[tumbleweed41]

Is there any more news on this?

He was originally scheduled to be beheaded today (Friday, April 2), but the court, under pressure from Human Rights groups, has either postponed of canceled the beheading.
As of the time it is unclear which.

 

[England my lionheart]

From the BBC

"A Lebanese man sentenced to death in Saudi Arabia for sorcery has been given a temporary reprieve, his lawyer says.
Ali Sabat's execution was scheduled for Friday but his lawyer, May el-Khansa, told the BBC she had been assured by a Lebanese minister it would not happen.
Mr Sabat, who is in his 40s, was the host of a satellite TV programme in which he predicted the future.
He was arrested by religious police while on pilgrimage to Saudi Arabia in 2008 and convicted of sorcery

 

[.lava]

From the BBC

"A Lebanese man sentenced to death in Saudi Arabia for sorcery has been given a temporary reprieve, his lawyer says.
Ali Sabat's execution was scheduled for Friday but his lawyer, May el-Khansa, told the BBC she had been assured by a Lebanese minister it would not happen.
Mr Sabat, who is in his 40s, was the host of a satellite TV programme in which he predicted the future.
He was arrested by religious police while on pilgrimage to Saudi Arabia in 2008 and convicted of sorcery

at least we know, thanks to TashaN, that part is a lie and Western media keeps lying about it. shame that

.

 

[England my lionheart]

So he was'nt on pilgrimage? is that it and should that make a difference

 

[.lava]

So he was'nt on pilgrimage? is that it and should that make a difference

then give me one reason why media keeps mentioning it.
and yes, it makes a difference. there are very different Muslim nations and all those Muslims may want to go Umra or Hajj. their lifestyle or the laws applied in their own nation should be used as a threat during a religious trip. i sincerely don't understand how come you don't see that. here many Muslims drink alcohol for instance but they are Musims. should they fear Saudis religious police while their visit to Ka'ba? is that normal to you?

.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

at least we know, thanks to TashaN, that part is a lie and Western media keeps lying about it. shame that

.

Human rights groups keep repeating this too, based on what the man's wife and his lawyer say. It could be that he really was on pilgrimage, and the Saudi authorities keep repeating the lie that he wasn't. That would be a shame, too. Either way, I suppose someone is lying and/or biased. I'm not saying it's not the man's wife and lawyer, I'm just saying it could be the Saudi authorities, in this case.

 

[TashaN]

I see your point but lots of religious people would agree with Caladan. I celebrated a friend's birthday yesterday, he's Muslim and he's from Iran. He knows what it's like to live in a country where religion and government are the same. He feels very strongly that religion should be separate from state affairs. He said he thinks that is the problem in Iran.

Iran is different, and i guess you know that. Just because the Iranian experience failed, that doesn't mean others have failed as well. Just because the US suck when it comes to applying terms such as "freedom" and "democracy", that doesn't mean other countries have failed automatically on applying them.

That's his opinion, but I think it just shows this issue transcends the issue of being an atheist or not. And of course most Americans and Europeans who said the laws of the state do not come directly from God, they believed in God.

True, but they had their reasons. That's because what was believed to come from God in these countries was the work of man. Islam is different because all the laws comes from God himself, not from people who invent laws and attribute it to God.

 

[TashaN]

Human rights groups keep repeating this too, based on what the man's wife and his lawyer say. It could be that he really was on pilgrimage, and the Saudi authorities keep repeating the lie that he wasn't. That would be a shame, too. Either way, I suppose someone is lying and/or biased. I'm not saying it's not the man's wife and lawyer, I'm just saying it could be the Saudi authorities, in this case.

I explained in this thread earlier that in order for someone to have an easy entry to Saudi Arabia, one has to apply for something called "a pilgrimage visa" because it would be difficult for this *sorcerer* to prove that he was coming for business, or that he was going there to visit someone, so he went for that easy visa which the Saudi authorities grant to all Muslims all over the world. That's why the media keep repeating that he was on pilgrimage to provoke Muslims who have no idea of what is that all about.

Just because someone entered to Saudi Arabia through "a pilgrimage visa" that doesn't automatically makes his visit for that particular purpose. I know many Christians who came to Saudi Arabia using that type of visa, claiming to be Muslims of course. Add to that, that when he got caught he wasn't in Mekkah, but he was in Medina, the city of the Prophet.

Although Saudi Arabia is not the perfect place to live at but one doesn't have to shot them down and attack them right away every time the media come up with something new against them.

Do you want to force Saudi Arabia to be like the US? adopting secular law and abolishing sharia law?

Is this a new version of colonization?

For example, if i were going to the US *i'll never go there of course*, i would keep in mind that i'm going to a semi-secular country which has specific laws and regulations, and when someone plan to go to Saudi Arabia, he should keep in mind that Sharia law works there.

 

[Hitchey]

Let this be another reason I will not leave America, as messed up as it is. I still have some freedom of religion, although many Christians seem to forget this in public. At least here what I can't keep away from me with my magick wand I can keep away with my Glock 27.

LOL
You can still feel safe in Canada, at least.

Our armed forces last Christmas allowed a Wicca service in Afganistan, and it was attended by several American GIs who were of similar persuasion. I can just see the Canadian military brass over there being arrested for promoting socery.

 

[kai]

The bbc report says:
There is no legal definition of witchcraft in Saudi Arabia, but horoscopes and fortune telling are condemned as un-Islamic.
Nevertheless, there is still a big thirst for such services in a country where widespread superstition survives under the surface of strict religious orthodoxy, the BBC's Sebastian Usher says.


I as wondering why there was widespread superstition in Saudi? but then i realised that the quran proves it to be true! so to muslims its not superstition at all is it? its all part and parcel of Islam.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I find some excuse for you now ,if all what was coming to your mind while we were talking was harry potter or the lord of the rings...but i wasn't paying attention to this point earlier

Actually the Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings references were a bit of sarcasm and ribbing on my part. I'm afraid I couldn't resist.

Usually when someone shows specific weird symtoms here...people resort to psychatrists and certain pious people who are able to break a spell....in many cases ,the person improves on drugs prescribed by doctors....and in other cases , breaking the spell is the only thing that works for him

Here is where some scientific study could be very useful. Does breaking the spell really work, or does it only appear to work? Any kind of "fake" treatment or therapy you can think of will sometimes appear to work if we don't meticulously record each trial, because people remember all the successes and forget all the failures. Even a sham treatment will "succeed" sometimes, because most ailments in most people will eventually get better, at least temporarily, given enough time, and it is natural for people to seize on these moments and interpret them as strong evidence the fake treatment "worked". Even if the fake treatment doesn't work, people don't often interpret this as evidence the treatment is fake .... it just didn't work "this time".

Another question: if a spell does work, or if breaking spells does work, does it work by breaking a "real" spell, or does it work by making the person believe a spell on them has been broken? This is an interesting distinction. For example, if you give patients something that does absolutely nothing, like a sugar pill -- what is called a "placebo" -- this will have some positive statistical effect on people's ailments. It can even be a pretty significant effect. It works better if people believe it will work. This is called the placebo effect, it has been well documented. See: Placebo Effect: A Cure in the Mind: Scientific American and placebo effect - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com

You can control for the placebo effect by measuring the treatment outcomes of people who are treated for spells vs. people who are not treated for spells, where neither group knows they are being treated for spells. Or, you could make both groups *believe* they are being treated for magic spells, but one treatment is fake and the other is "real".

Are you aware of a similar phenomenon that was tested before ? . i personally think that it's very difficult if not impossible to test it for a number of reasons...first ,sorcerers are not interested in being tested...they usually keep their work a secret....second ,we don't believe that every time a spell is casted on someone...it will necessarily causes him harm

The only question is, is the effect strong enough to be measured? In high quality studies with hundreds of rats and sometimes thousands of human subjects, it has been possible to measure effects as tiny as the rate of cancer changing from 0.025% to 0.050%, due to the influence of some drug, if I remember one study I saw. If magic spells are real we should be able to measure them, UNLESS their effects are so weak, and so rare compared to other factors like washing your hands or getting enough iron in your diet, that we can't even measure it at all. That's still an interesting result, definitely worth knowing. If magic spells have a negligible effect on people's health compared to other factors, then it *might* exist but for all practical purposes, it is not something to be worried about.

and my other question to you ,do you find the idea that certain external phenomena can affect one's clarity of thinking and emotional state scientifically acceptable considering that it was already documented in some psychatric phenomena like the seasonal variation of the mood ,for example ?

Absolutely, external phenomena have an effect on how people feel and think. To find how how various things affect people, and how big or small the effect is, you have to measure it.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Iran is different, and i guess you know that. Just because the Iranian experience failed, that doesn't mean others have failed as well. Just because the US suck when it comes to applying terms such as "freedom" and "democracy", that doesn't mean other countries have failed automatically on applying them.

True, but they had their reasons. That's because what was believed to come from God in these countries was the work of man. Islam is different because all the laws comes from God himself, not from people who invent laws and attribute it to God.

My point wasn't to make an argument about which is preferable, a secular state or an Islamic state. My point was that Caladan does not necessarily reject a religious state in favor of a secular state simply because he is an atheist. Many religious believers, including some Muslims, share this view. So clearly the issue of a secular vs. Islamic state is not simply about whether or not a person believes in God.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I explained in this thread earlier that in order for someone to have an easy entry to Saudi Arabia, one has to apply for something called "a pilgrimage visa" because it would be difficult for this *sorcerer* to prove that he was coming for business, or that he was going there to visit someone, so he went for that easy visa which the Saudi authorities grant to all Muslims all over the world. That's why the media keep repeating that he was on pilgrimage to provoke Muslims who have no idea of what is that all about.

Just because someone entered to Saudi Arabia through "a pilgrimage visa" that doesn't automatically makes his visit for that particular purpose. I know many Christians who came to Saudi Arabia using that type of visa, claiming to be Muslims of course. Add to that, that when he got caught he wasn't in Mekkah, but he was in Medina, the city of the Prophet.

I'm not saying he WAS definitely on pilgrimage. I'm saying he might have been. Nothing you've said here proves he WASN'T on pilgrimage, does it? You aren't saying a person who visits Saudi Arabia on pilgrimage would NEVER go to Medina during their trip, are you?

Here's the main evidence he was on pilgrimage:

• His wife and his lawyer say that's why he went there.

Here's the main evidence he was not on pilgrimage:

• The Saudi authorities say he was not there on pilgrimage.

All I'm saying is that, based on this evidence, we cannot say he was definitely not on pilgrimage. Unless there's more evidence I should add to the list?

Although Saudi Arabia is not the perfect place to live at but one doesn't have to shot them down and attack them right away every time the media come up with something new against them.

I totally agree. However, one also does not have to take the Saudi authorities on their word alone, with no other evidence, and assume the man's wife and lawyer are lying about him being on pilgrimage.

Do you want to force Saudi Arabia to be like the US? adopting secular law and abolishing sharia law?

No. Of course not. That's completely absurd. All I said was that it's Mrs. Sibat and her lawyer's word against the Saudi authorities, he might have been on pilgrimage and he might not have been. This cannot *possibly* be interpreted as me saying, "Let's force Saudi Arabia to be like the US".

Is this a new version of colonization?

I have to accept everything the Saudi authorities say is 100% reliable, otherwise I am a colonist. Come on. This is a spectacular exaggeration. For the record, I admit it, I'm not 100% confident in the deductive and forensic powers of Saudi prosecutors who think The Witches by Roald Dahl is in the true crime genre instead of children's fiction. Their word alone is the only evidence I have seen that Mr. Sibat was NOT on pilgrimage, they might be right but they might also be wrong, or lying.

For example, if i were going to the US *i'll never go there of course*, i would keep in mind that i'm going to a semi-secular country which has specific laws and regulations, and when someone plan to go to Saudi Arabia, he should keep in mind that Sharia law works there.

Absolutely, in general I agree with you. If some Westerners go to Saudi Arabia and they violate the alcohol ban, or something like that, I'm not very upset or surprised that they end up being fined, jailed for a while, or deported. I wouldn't raise an uproar and demand Saudi Arabia change it's alcohol laws, that would be silly. I would tell people not to be stupid and respect the laws of the country they are visiting. I agree with you in general cases.

But we are talking about THIS case. This guy was arrested over two years ago and now he might be executed. This is serious. And the evidence and accusation against him are very flimsy for the reasons we have been discussing.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

BTW I'm not even asking Saudi Arabia to change their laws on sorcery. I'm joining human rights groups, Mr. Sibat's lawyer and his wife, and the nation of Lebanon in asking, yes asking not forcing, the Saudi royals to step in on this case. They are allowed to do that under Saudi law unless I am mistaken. I would ask them to accept the ruling of the Saudi appeals court, which said Mr. Sibat should be given the opportunity to repent especially now that he has served over 2 years in prison with execution hanging over his head, and he could then be allowed to return to Lebanon, where I emphasize he had previously committed no crime.

 

[England my lionheart]

then give me one reason why media keeps mentioning it.
and yes, it makes a difference. there are very different Muslim nations and all those Muslims may want to go Umra or Hajj. their lifestyle or the laws applied in their own nation should be used as a threat during a religious trip. i sincerely don't understand how come you don't see that. here many Muslims drink alcohol for instance but they are Musims. should they fear Saudis religious police while their visit to Ka'ba? is that normal to you?

.

,
I think everyone should fear the religious Police,i find it very disturbing that anyone should defend the Saudi's in this,there is absolutely no excuse for their actions,again it is a stark reminder that religion and power is a dangerous Cocktail and IMO only the delusional or ignorant would think otherwise.

 

[England my lionheart]

From the Saudi News agency:

Stop the execution of the death sentence against a magician channel Scheherazade "on sabot once" in Saudi Arabia and his wife invokes the mercy of the Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques for his release ..

​

Riyadh: Agencies
Said media sources said yesterday that Saudi Arabia stopped the death penalty to the right of Lebanese to the sabot once the "Wizard of channel Scheherazade" after being found guilty of witchcraft by the said lawyer Mai Khansa and Lebanese Justice Minister Ibrahim Najjar, and assured the minister's family sabot once saying he did not speak to them to reassure them that were not to have adequate information. "
The wife of sabot once had appealed to the concerned authorities last Thursday to pardon her husband, while the request of the Minister of Justice of Lebanon from the Saudi government to stop the execution, as Amnesty International appealed to the Lebanese authorities to intervene, "she said, Samira Rahmoun all that is required" to show Saudi Arabia and the Saudi government Mercy , and cleared for her husband to return to his country and his family. "

​

She added: "We can not understand how they arrested and charged and sentenced to death. It is incomprehensible."
The sabot once a lawyer had warned Wednesday that the death sentence will be carried out in her client this week, calling on officials and organizations defending human rights to intervene in his favor. Added May Khansa "I am doing my contacts with Lebanese officials, including President Michel Suleiman and the Lebanese Ambassador in Saudi Arabia to intervene in order to appeal his case."
Counsel explains that the Lebanese Ambassador in touch Besbat that one of the embassy staff had visited him in prison Wednesday.
The Saudi court sentenced a sabot once (48 years) in last November on charges of "witchcraft and sorcery and fortune-telling" on Scheherazade space that have been closed earlier.
Khansa said, "It is very important to save the life of this person, it is not a criminal," and pointed out that the family sabot once "shocked" and that his mother's health situation is very bad. And organizations have expressed human rights groups expressed concern about the issue of sabot once and other similar cases pending in the courts of Saudi Arabia.
He said Malcolm Smart, director of Amnesty International in the Middle East and North Africa "We urge the Lebanese authorities to do everything they can do to prevent the execution of this."
He called on Saudi King Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz to intervene to prevent the execution. He said, "It's time to join the Saudi government to the international movement to abolish the death penalty."
Sabot once entered Saudi Arabia in May 2008 to perform Umrah, was stopped by members of "the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice," and sentenced to death in November, right in November 2009 after being accused of witchcraft by a satellite channel

 

[maro]

Here is where some scientific study could be very useful. Does breaking the spell really work, or does it only appear to work? Any kind of "fake" treatment or therapy you can think of will sometimes appear to work if we don't meticulously record each trial, because people remember all the successes and forget all the failures. Even a sham treatment will "succeed" sometimes, because most ailments in most people will eventually get better, at least temporarily, given enough time, and it is natural for people to seize on these moments and interpret them as strong evidence the fake treatment "worked". Even if the fake treatment doesn't work, people don't often interpret this as evidence the treatment is fake .... it just didn't work "this time".

Another question: if a spell does work, or if breaking spells does work, does it work by breaking a "real" spell, or does it work by making the person believe a spell on them has been broken? This is an interesting distinction. For example, if you give patients something that does absolutely nothing, like a sugar pill -- what is called a "placebo" -- this will have some positive statistical effect on people's ailments. It can even be a pretty significant effect. It works better if people believe it will work. This is called the placebo effect, it has been well documented. See: Placebo Effect: A Cure in the Mind: Scientific American and placebo effect - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com

You can control for the placebo effect by measuring the treatment outcomes of people who are treated for spells vs. people who are not treated for spells, where neither group knows they are being treated for spells. Or, you could make both groups *believe* they are being treated for magic spells, but one treatment is fake and the other is "real".

The only question is, is the effect strong enough to be measured? In high quality studies with hundreds of rats and sometimes thousands of human subjects, it has been possible to measure effects as tiny as the rate of cancer changing from 0.025% to 0.050%, due to the influence of some drug, if I remember one study I saw. If magic spells are real we should be able to measure them, UNLESS their effects are so weak, and so rare compared to other factors like washing your hands or getting enough iron in your diet, that we can't even measure it at all. That's still an interesting result, definitely worth knowing. If magic spells have a negligible effect on people's health compared to other factors, then it *might* exist but for all practical purposes, it is not something to be worried about.

so ,you think that the effect of the spell-if exists- is not strong enough to be measured...and breaking the spell is only a placebo ?!

you didn't provide studies that support your position ,though....i guess i might do those studies myself oneday