Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Incidentally, this destroys the theory of Jesus having a "religious experience at baptism, and taking over for John the Baptist.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
'Man was created in the image of G-d'
- Thread starter Desert Snake
- Start date
Incidentally, this destroys the theory of Jesus having a "religious experience at baptism, and taking over for John the Baptist.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Don't know - it is all speculation.
They are very concerned with numbers.
John and Jesus only began their ministries six months apart, both at thirty - and he taught about the coming Messiah.
John the Baptist was the son of Zechariah a priest of the division of Abijah - the eighth division in rotation - 1 Chron 24.10, 19); Thus he is in the Temple at a set time. He was chosen by lot to enter the temple and offer the incense to God (1.8, 9). This is when he had his vision. Read Luke 1.
- These divisions are set. -
Luk 1:13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
Luk 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
Luk 1:23 And it came to pass, that, as soon as the days of his ministration were accomplished, he departed to his own house.
- He had to be within a certain walking distance of the Temple. -
Luk 1:24 And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived, and hid herself five months, saying,
Luk 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
With this information you can figure out within a few days, when Jesus was born.
*
There also could be something special - religious date? etc, around six months after Zachariah's Temple service, - a reason for Jesus being conceived at that time?
*
Last edited:
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Because it states that Jesus was 'before' John the Baptist. It indicates Jesus is higher on the hierarchy.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Neither of which would negate Jesus having a, "religious experience at baptism, and taking over for John the Baptist."
Besides, wasn't there supposed to have been a special announcement?
*
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Neither of which would negate Jesus having a, "religious experience at baptism, and taking over for John the Baptist."
Besides, wasn't there supposed to have been a special announcement?
*
I don't know what you are referring to.
Also, Scripture indicates the highest spiritual position belonging to Jesus, not John the Baptist. Jesus was Divine. John, a man.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Ingledsva said:
I'm not sure what you are saying here?
It says Jesus is the Ordained One. John was sent to make ready for him.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
Joh 1: bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is ordained before me: for he was before me.
*
John Martin
Active Member
Our spiritual life is an evolution in consciousness and relationship with God. There are some archetypes who represent a level of consciousness:
The consciousness of being in slavery in Egypt produces a level of consciousness, that becomes a liberator, a Law giver, who forms an exclusive group of people.
Moses represents this level of consciousness.. He represents an established religion,with the Law, the temple and the rituals, the hierarchy.
Elizabeth and Zachariah represent a level of consciousness which gives birth to another level of consciousness that declare the end of the Law and the arrival of a New Life(New Covenant).
John the Baptist represents a level of human consciousness, who moves away from the established structure( the villages and towns) and moves into the desert waiting for the arrival of this New Life.
Mary and Joseph represent a level of human consciousness, which discontinues the movement from the past and gives birth a consciousness,Jesus) that realizes oneness with the God of eternity, I am Who I am.
Jesus Christ represents a level of consciousness that goes beyond time and space and realizes oneness with God. 'The Father and I are one'. No human consciousness can go beyond that. All these archetypes are within each one of us. We need to realize them in our own spiritual growth.
In this way Jesus' God experience is the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets.
His consciousness is higher than the consciousness of John the Baptist.
Last edited:
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Image
What is 'image'? First, we think of physicality, not essence or personality. An 'image' of someone is their physical aspects, basically. We make idols in the 'image' of some 'god' etc. We create an 'image' to portray the basic physical attribution we are trying to ascribe to something else.
Plurality
Plurality of Deity. This is a basic understanding of the Genesis Deity description. Whether God and Angels, or a description we are not entirely sure of, it indicates a plural nature to the Creator. We essentially have two deities powerful enough to be Creator Gods, however 'they' are described as ONE deity, Jesus/God. 'To worship the Son is to worship the Father etc., and the son is the manifestation in physical form, basically descriptive rather than literal if we consider the Divine aspect as already one Godhead.
The Deity from Israel. It was outside the scope of the Israelites to choose to be the 'chosen people'. /Later to include Christians in the covenant.
We have a coherent description of Oneness in Godhead, yet apparent plurality in description. Jesus/God.
We have one inspired text for the Israelites, cohesive to Jesus/God
We have one Covenant that seems to 'change', yet is referred to as 'correct', an indication of parallel Covenant ordinances.
We have 'similarity' but not same in various practices of Israelites.
We are forced to consider the 'image' in which we were created.
What is 'image'? First, we think of physicality, not essence or personality. An 'image' of someone is their physical aspects, basically. We make idols in the 'image' of some 'god' etc. We create an 'image' to portray the basic physical attribution we are trying to ascribe to something else.
Plurality
Plurality of Deity. This is a basic understanding of the Genesis Deity description. Whether God and Angels, or a description we are not entirely sure of, it indicates a plural nature to the Creator. We essentially have two deities powerful enough to be Creator Gods, however 'they' are described as ONE deity, Jesus/God. 'To worship the Son is to worship the Father etc., and the son is the manifestation in physical form, basically descriptive rather than literal if we consider the Divine aspect as already one Godhead.
The Deity from Israel. It was outside the scope of the Israelites to choose to be the 'chosen people'. /Later to include Christians in the covenant.
We have a coherent description of Oneness in Godhead, yet apparent plurality in description. Jesus/God.
We have one inspired text for the Israelites, cohesive to Jesus/God
We have one Covenant that seems to 'change', yet is referred to as 'correct', an indication of parallel Covenant ordinances.
We have 'similarity' but not same in various practices of Israelites.
We are forced to consider the 'image' in which we were created.
Last edited:
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Well, that is another way to look at it.
But most Christians, take most of it, literally.
*
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
That IS what I'm saying. Jesus is 'ordained' already. It is not a 'ceremony to ordain'.
Will Campbell
Member
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding" ~Thomas Jefferson...April 11, 1823~
excerpt from a letter written To John Adams
"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own--a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human fraility. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotism. It is enough for me to contemplate the mystery of conscious life perpetuating itself through all eternity, to reflect upon the marvelous structure of the universe which we can dimly perceive, and to try humbly to comprehend even an infinitesimal part of the intelligence manifested in nature" ~Dr. Albert Einstein~
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
It's part of an argument presented elsewhere, it postulates a more 'common' type personage for Jesus by presenting Him as 'purely human' or non-divine in nature. You can't really have a Deity or Divine Jesus if He isn't foremost from the beginning. That is why I reference the three wise men worshipping Jesus at birth, it differentiates His Spirit from our spirits.
No confusion intended.
cheers
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
I personally believe the Bible tells us Jesus is Human, not God.
A very Special Singular Son of God, from the line of David. Hence the only awaited Messiah - whom has always been know to be a special human sent by God.
*
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
The more I study/learn about Christianity, the more I realize that Jesus was/is intended as Deity, God, in the religion. This aspect is not secondary to an earlier belief, it is primary. Therefore I argue in that context, and the narrative and Religion match as they should to this understanding. We have to look at Christianity in order to understand Christianity, not other modes of thinking/logic/perspective.
Basically, it really doesn't matter what 'I' personally believe, we wouldn't study any other religion in that manner. Well, I wouldn't. if you can honestly say that you view all religions in that manner, then o.k. you are arguing outside of said religion, a position within itself. I get the impression you do that to a certain extent, but that position necessitates presenting only arguments from a non-religion(whichever it is) perspective/interpretation, otherwise you are mixing apples and oranges.
CMike
Well-Known Member
You either believe in the jewish bible or the christian bible. They are mutually exclusive. You can't with intellectual honesty believe in both.
Hear O Israel, the L-rd is our G-D, the L-ord is ONE (Deut)
I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God. ...so that from the rising of the Sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:5-6)
...I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me. (Isaiah, 46:9)
... so that all the peoples of the Earth may know that the Lord is God and that there is no other. (1 Kings, 8:60)
Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the Earth; for I am God, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:22)
This is what the Lord says…"Surely God is with you, and there is no other; there is no other God." (Isaiah, 45:14)
...The Lord our God, the Lord is one. (Deuteronomy, 6:4)
You are my witness--the words of Hashem--and My servant, whom I have chosen, so that you will know and believe in Me, and understand that I am He; before me nothing was created by a G-D, and after Me it shall not be (Isaiah 43:10)
... O Lord; no deeds can compare with Yours. All the nations You have made will come and worship before You, O Lord; they will bring glory to Your name. For You are great and do marvelous deeds; You alone are God. (Psalms, 86:8-10)
O Lord ...You alone are God over all the kingdoms of the Earth. You have made heaven and Earth. (Isaiah, 37:16)
... all kingdoms on Earth may know that You alone, O Lord, are God. (Isaiah, 37:20)
This is what the Lord says—your Redeemer, Who formed you in the womb: I am the Lord, Who has made all things, Who alone stretched out the heavens, Who spread out the Earth by Myself. (Isaiah, 44:24)
Since ancient times no one has heard, no ear has perceived, no eye has seen any God besides You, who acts on behalf of those who wait for Him. (Isaiah, 64:4)
For this is what the Lord says—He Who created the heavens, He is God; He Who fashioned and made the Earth, He founded it; He did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited—He says: "I am the Lord, and there is no other." (Isaiah, 45:18)
...Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no god apart from Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but Me. (Isaiah, 45:21)
See now that I Myself am He! There is no god besides Me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal... (Deuteronomy, 32:39)
...you may know there is no one like the Lord our God. (Exodus, 8:10)
O Lord... there is no god like You in heaven above or on Earth below... (1 Kings, 8:23; 2 Chronicles, 6:14)
Then Asa called to the Lord his God and said, "Lord, there is no one like You to help the powerless against the mighty..."(2 Chronicles, 14:11)
I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from Me there is no savior. (Isaiah, 43:11)
There is no one like You, O Lord, and there is no god but You, as we have heard with our own ears. (1 Chronicles, 17:20; 2 Samuel, 7:22)
There is no one holy like the Lord; there is no one besides You; there is no strength like our God. (1 Samuel, 2:2)
Hear O Israel, the L-rd is our G-D, the L-ord is ONE (Deut)
I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God. ...so that from the rising of the Sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:5-6)
...I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me. (Isaiah, 46:9)
... so that all the peoples of the Earth may know that the Lord is God and that there is no other. (1 Kings, 8:60)
Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the Earth; for I am God, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:22)
This is what the Lord says…"Surely God is with you, and there is no other; there is no other God." (Isaiah, 45:14)
...The Lord our God, the Lord is one. (Deuteronomy, 6:4)
You are my witness--the words of Hashem--and My servant, whom I have chosen, so that you will know and believe in Me, and understand that I am He; before me nothing was created by a G-D, and after Me it shall not be (Isaiah 43:10)
... O Lord; no deeds can compare with Yours. All the nations You have made will come and worship before You, O Lord; they will bring glory to Your name. For You are great and do marvelous deeds; You alone are God. (Psalms, 86:8-10)
O Lord ...You alone are God over all the kingdoms of the Earth. You have made heaven and Earth. (Isaiah, 37:16)
... all kingdoms on Earth may know that You alone, O Lord, are God. (Isaiah, 37:20)
This is what the Lord says—your Redeemer, Who formed you in the womb: I am the Lord, Who has made all things, Who alone stretched out the heavens, Who spread out the Earth by Myself. (Isaiah, 44:24)
Since ancient times no one has heard, no ear has perceived, no eye has seen any God besides You, who acts on behalf of those who wait for Him. (Isaiah, 64:4)
For this is what the Lord says—He Who created the heavens, He is God; He Who fashioned and made the Earth, He founded it; He did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited—He says: "I am the Lord, and there is no other." (Isaiah, 45:18)
...Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no god apart from Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but Me. (Isaiah, 45:21)
See now that I Myself am He! There is no god besides Me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal... (Deuteronomy, 32:39)
...you may know there is no one like the Lord our God. (Exodus, 8:10)
O Lord... there is no god like You in heaven above or on Earth below... (1 Kings, 8:23; 2 Chronicles, 6:14)
Then Asa called to the Lord his God and said, "Lord, there is no one like You to help the powerless against the mighty..."(2 Chronicles, 14:11)
I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from Me there is no savior. (Isaiah, 43:11)
There is no one like You, O Lord, and there is no god but You, as we have heard with our own ears. (1 Chronicles, 17:20; 2 Samuel, 7:22)
There is no one holy like the Lord; there is no one besides You; there is no strength like our God. (1 Samuel, 2:2)
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Yep! And Jesus would have been trained in the Jewish religion.
He never claims to be God, or part of a Trinity.
He is actually claiming to be the awaited Jewish Messiah.
*
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Actually Jesus never claims to be God, or part of a Trinity.
He is actually claiming to be the awaited Jewish Messiah.
The awaited Messiah is a Special/Singular Son of God - but not God.
I'm not arguing from "outside" the religion. I am arguing from what the actual Hebrew and Greek texts of the Bible say.
*
CMike
Well-Known Member
That goes down in flames too.
The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)
Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance (Isaiah 2:4)
The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:810)
The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
Nations will recognize the wrongs they did Israel (Isaiah 52:1353:5)
For My House (the Temple in Jerusalem) shall be called a house of prayer for all nations (Isaiah 56:37)
The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvoth
He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)
Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)
He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:1315, Ezekiel 36:2930, Isaiah 11:69)
Michah 4
3. And he shall judge between many peoples and reprove mighty nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nations shall not lift the sword against nation; neither shall they learn war anymore.
Ezekiel 37
21. And say to them, So says the Lord God: Behold I will take the children of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side, and I will bring them to their land. כא. (bring all the jews to Israel
22. And I will make them into one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be to them all as a king; and they shall no longer be two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms anymore. כב. One recognized king
23. And they shall no longer defile themselves with their idols, with their detestable things, or with all their transgressions, and I will save them from all their habitations in which they have sinned, and I will purify them, and they shall be to Me as a people, and I will be to them as a God. כג. All nations will worship one G-D
24. And My servant David shall be king over them, and one shepherd shall be for them all, and they shall walk in My ordinances and observe My statutes and perform them. כד. Descendent of David
25. And they shall dwell on the land that I have given to My servant, to Jacob, wherein your forefathers lived; and they shall dwell upon it, they and their children and their children's children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever. כה.All the jews will stay in Israel forever
26. And I will form a covenant of peace for them, an everlasting covenant shall be with them; and I will establish them and I will multiply them, and I will place My Sanctuary in their midst forever. כו. The temple in jerusalem will be rebuilt and stand forever
27. And My dwelling place shall be over them, and I will be to them for a God, and they shall be to Me as a people. כז.
28. And the nations shall know that I am the Lord, Who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary is in their midst forever." The temple in jerusalem will be rebuilt and stand forever