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Mandatory Vaccinations?

Friend of Mara

Active Member
Why irony?
Because its ironic.
Edit: Alright I'll stop being cheeky. But you stop being cheeky too.

When we look at it objectively there is only one clear side. One side does tend to be cult like. But it is not the side looking at things objectively. Perhaps I am misreading your post but I would have bet a pretty penny the side you think is acting like a cult and the side I think is acting like a cult are the opposite. So therefore...irony.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Because its ironic.
Edit: Alright I'll stop being cheeky. But you stop being cheeky too.

When we look at it objectively there is only one clear side. One side does tend to be cult like. But it is not the side looking at things objectively. Perhaps I am misreading your post but I would have bet a pretty penny the side you think is acting like a cult and the side I think is acting like a cult are the opposite. So therefore...irony.

It's an observation I stand by (not in a mean way-just being blunt) about the cult mentality... in our news, media, on RF, and so forth. Thankfully I haven't met it face to face in person. Which is different than a provaxxer saying antivaxxers (and putting all unvaccinated people as antivaxxers) in one boat, saying they don't care about others, shunning, and even akin to murder.

Cult mentality isn't an insult, but I can see why people perceive it that way coming from me.

-

I do believe that a lot of provaxxers are either not seeing the other side and/or would have or do have a cognitive dissonance if one attempts to look at the other side.

For example, take blood clots and heart problems as side affects.... these things are pretty harsh side affects whether from vaccine, medicine, whatever. Instead of acknowledging "hey, its a huge side affect--you are right--I choose the vaccine still" it's "but you're wrong, this is very rare compared, you got your facts mixed up."

I'd say directly maybe own up to the seriousness of vaccines having a bad side and have the responsibility (and outside the cult mentality-being like others) and say I choose this vaccine despite the side affects.

But in general, I just find it odd why you (people align with your opinions) would only see the good side of things and dismiss the bad sides. That has always puzzled me but I wonder if people don't address it in a civilized way because it may make them sound antivaxxish or challenge their choices they have already made.

Who knows. I'm guessing.

Edit.
I'll add...not all of "us" can handle cognitive dissonance and fear in a pandemic... admitting it is a pretty huge deal and taking responsibility for our choices in relation to others is pretty good too.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
In serious illnesses the doctor may give the patient all the facts and support in the world but I assume a good 90% of patients will ask with a life threatening condition: what is the worse that can happen.
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I'll agree but again I feel a sense of irony.

Just had another thought trying to figure your comment... no one is immune to what I'm saying. I wonder how provaxxers would read it if another provaxxer said it. It would probably be taken as a thought or reflection rather than a debate or accusation. Points tend to change depending on who said it and not the point itself.
Who knows.
 

Friend of Mara

Active Member
Just had another thought trying to figure your comment... no one is immune to what I'm saying. I wonder how provaxxers would read it if another provaxxer said it. It would probably be taken as a thought or reflection rather than a debate or accusation. Points tend to change depending on who said it and not the point itself.
Who knows.
You are talking about how difficult it is to deal with cognitive dissonance. Its not really unique to the pandemic. Typically people have an innate psychological reaction to defend their point regardless of how wrong they are. Like for example if two people are arguing about some random history fact and when someone looks it up and proves a person wrong sometimes they will double down and become angry. Its hard to face being wrong.

And I agree that there are people like that in the pandemic. I just don't think that it applies heavily with "pro-vaxxers". Though I could imagine that people against vaccination or even people who downplayed the severity of the virus like anti-maskers might have a hard time coming to terms with the fact that their actions and beliefs caused the death of a quarter million people in the US. It must be hard to think that ones through process and the through processes of other people who you so desperately believe to be in the right has a lot of blood on their hands.

But just from the context of your post it seemed that it was aimed at people who think everyone should be vaccinated. That they somehow are unable to look at side effects of vaccination because of some ideological push for vaccination. I don't really see that. I see people knee-jerk reacting to people with concerns about vaccination. And sometimes that is for good reason. Anti-vax people have been coming out of the woodwork in an attempt to hamper the only weapon we've had at fighting the worst thing that has happened in many of our lifetimes. And I'm not talking about you specifically in this post but there are a ton of people who take extremely rare and sometimes very minor side effects as a broad talking point to crusade against vaccination. Whats worse is a lot of people listen to them. The fact is vaccination is safe. Side effects are rare. Non-trivial side effects are extremely rare. And getting the target goal of vaccinations is extremely important.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
You are talking about how difficult it is to deal with cognitive dissonance. Its not really unique to the pandemic. Typically people have an innate psychological reaction to defend their point regardless of how wrong they are. Like for example if two people are arguing about some random history fact and when someone looks it up and proves a person wrong sometimes they will double down and become angry. Its hard to face being wrong.

Exactly. I just think the result or response to it natural leads to a "we/them"... There's another word for it when you're, say, in a class full of students. Majority of the class wants to go partying but two or three of them want to do otherwise. The group, naturally insulted by the opposition of their plans, turns against the two. What makes it a cult mentality (or like word) is if one of the people in the group sided with the minority but can't because he would be shunned. It's a mental dissonance that government, experts, and media tend to push. There are distinct examples of it, but provaxxers will discredit it. It's a weird thing that mindset can do. As for me and a few others that align in part with my thinking (don't know to many) aren't immune. Just in the pandemic, by default, it's highly provaxxer-oriented.

And I agree that there are people like that in the pandemic. I just don't think that it applies heavily with "pro-vaxxers". Though I could imagine that people against vaccination or even people who downplayed the severity of the virus like anti-maskers might have a hard time coming to terms with the fact that their actions and beliefs caused the death of a quarter million people in the US. It must be hard to think that ones through process and the through processes of other people who you so desperately believe to be in the right has a lot of blood on their hands.

I actually don't know many antivaxxers (people against vaccination) and unvaccinated (without any political stance) any different in their responses than provaxxers (those for vaccination) and those vaccinated (without any political stance).

But what about provaxxers negativity? The anti/provaxxer debate is bothersome in itself, but do provaxxers feel justified in their feelings against antivaxxers that seeing the other side (empathy) would not cross their minds?

But just from the context of your post it seemed that it was aimed at people who think everyone should be vaccinated. That they somehow are unable to look at side effects of vaccination because of some ideological push for vaccination.

I don't really see that. I see people knee-jerk reacting to people with concerns about vaccination. And sometimes that is for good reason. Anti-vax people have been coming out of the woodwork in an attempt to hamper the only weapon we've had at fighting the worst thing that has happened in many of our lifetimes.

And I'm not talking about you specifically in this post but there are a ton of people who take extremely rare and sometimes very minor side effects as a broad talking point to crusade against vaccination.

Whats worse is a lot of people listen to them. The fact is vaccination is safe. Side effects are rare. Non-trivial side effects are extremely rare. And getting the target goal of vaccinations is extremely important.

Somewhat. Vaccinated people want everyone to be vaccinated (for herd immunity). They're unable to look at side affects (because of cognitive dissonance or just rejection) not because of ideological push for vaccination.

Do you mean antivaxxers on television? I can kinda agree with that just from what I see and what media talks about. I don't see provaxxers mainly (my assumption) is the majority is on their side. It makes the antivaxxers look silly why the provaxxers (and the unvaccinated) watch from behind the screens.

It is extremely rare. CDC, WHO, and other officials are looking into these rare occurrences. My question is why aren't these side affects seen in the same severity than the benefits of vaccination? Why discredit them rather than accept their severity and choose from that? (Can one make a decision that's not biased because of the majority rules?)

I think there's only two anti-vaxxers here that talk against the vaccine in a manner provaxxers talk against the antivaxxers. But those who aren't in this ballpark just make the decision based on the same info as the vaccinated and call it a day.

My question is why does one need to be an antivaxxer, ignorant, not knowing the facts, just for choosing not to vaccinated?

I'm sure there are other criteria that makes one an antivaxxer rather than just choosing not to vaccinate, no?

Vaccination is safe "and" it has side affects that the experts are looking into regardless the rarity.

Why discredit the other side?

It doesn't mean you're wrong... just means both sides are acknowledged --equally and and objectively--.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
You are talking about how difficult it is to deal with cognitive dissonance. Its not really unique to the pandemic. Typically people have an innate psychological reaction to defend their point regardless of how wrong they are. Like for example if two people are arguing about some random history fact and when someone looks it up and proves a person wrong sometimes they will double down and become angry. Its hard to face being wrong.

And I agree that there are people like that in the pandemic. I just don't think that it applies heavily with "pro-vaxxers". Though I could imagine that people against vaccination or even people who downplayed the severity of the virus like anti-maskers might have a hard time coming to terms with the fact that their actions and beliefs caused the death of a quarter million people in the US. It must be hard to think that ones through process and the through processes of other people who you so desperately believe to be in the right has a lot of blood on their hands.

But just from the context of your post it seemed that it was aimed at people who think everyone should be vaccinated. That they somehow are unable to look at side effects of vaccination because of some ideological push for vaccination. I don't really see that. I see people knee-jerk reacting to people with concerns about vaccination. And sometimes that is for good reason. Anti-vax people have been coming out of the woodwork in an attempt to hamper the only weapon we've had at fighting the worst thing that has happened in many of our lifetimes. And I'm not talking about you specifically in this post but there are a ton of people who take extremely rare and sometimes very minor side effects as a broad talking point to crusade against vaccination. Whats worse is a lot of people listen to them. The fact is vaccination is safe. Side effects are rare. Non-trivial side effects are extremely rare. And getting the target goal of vaccinations is extremely important.

I honestly don't know the reasoning behind the negativity, but just a lastish comment...

I don't see it in person just on RF. Usually people just do their thing. I've had a couple people during the mask-error talk about their dislike about masks but no one really thinks about storming the capitol or riots or any of that nonsense. The reason the argument is on the provaxxer side is because they are saying they are saving people by herd immunity, it's about others not themselves, and a general sense of patriotism. I see the majority of it on RF. But No One can decide whose at risk of another without other factors involved--even doctors won't do that. I even read that nurses keep reminding people that the vaccines aren't cures. My fear is that this cult mentality will have a huge affect on the economy in one way or another....but don't know if people would see it that much if all are happy they are vaccinated.

Rant/insight.
 

Friend of Mara

Active Member
I honestly don't know the reasoning behind the negativity, but just a lastish comment...

I don't see it in person just on RF. Usually people just do their thing. I've had a couple people during the mask-error talk about their dislike about masks but no one really thinks about storming the capitol or riots or any of that nonsense. The reason the argument is on the provaxxer side is because they are saying they are saving people by herd immunity, it's about others not themselves, and a general sense of patriotism. I see the majority of it on RF. But No One can decide whose at risk of another without other factors involved--even doctors won't do that. I even read that nurses keep reminding people that the vaccines aren't cures. My fear is that this cult mentality will have a huge affect on the economy in one way or another....but don't know if people would see it that much if all are happy they are vaccinated.

Rant/insight.
I just don't know how facing the reality of the situation is a cult mentality.

We have two choices.
Vaccinate. Go back to normal.
Stay unvaccinated and go back to lockdown indefinitely.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I just don't know how facing the reality of the situation is a cult mentality.

We have two choices.
Vaccinate. Go back to normal.
Stay unvaccinated and go back to lockdown indefinitely.

It's not. Cult mentality in a softer way to put it is when a population or group of people are influenced and many times coerced to behave a certain way, think certain way, or so have you. It's the how the pandemic is addressed, information about it, and how people behave not the validity of the information (though people do talk about the validity because of people's mentality on the issue. Provaxxers see it as conspiracy theories but I think some have some truth to it).

In the states we're reopening. So far it's vaccinated-don't wear masks and unvaccinated-must wear masks.

I don't know if they'll shut things down but personally, I don't believe the virus really cares about shut downs when and where one covers their face. So, I get the vaccine issue. Not all of us are antivax.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Care to elaborate?

Oh. There are conspiracy theories about COVID and COVID vaccines that degrades the severity of COVID and talks down of vaccines. Online it's presented as a provaxxer against antivaxxer but not in the sense not all antivaxxers or unvaccinated people agree with the conspiracies. One of them is COVID is just like the seasonal flu. How 5 corrosive conspiracy theories made our fight against COVID-19 even harder What I don't like, though, is that sometimes Google, Facebook, etc delete a lot of information that talk against the vaccine (most not encouraging people to not take it just sharing their opinions of it). I think there is a balance between talking about vaccines in a positive/negative way in that (as one RF member told me member told me), that focusing on the other side will lead people not to take the pandemic seriously.

Here it is "Pros and Cons of the Vaccines | COVID-19 Vaccine FAQ | cdc.gov" Look it up on google... it goes to this site: Benefits of Getting a COVID-19 Vaccine.

CDC changed the title... it now says Benefits of getting the vaccine instead of Pros/Cons. Slip on their part I guess.
 
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Friend of Mara

Active Member
Oh. There are conspiracy theories about COVID and COVID vaccines that degrades the severity of COVID and talks down of vaccines. Online it's presented as a provaxxer against antivaxxer but not in the sense not all antivaxxers or unvaccinated people agree with the conspiracies. One of them is COVID is just like the seasonal flu. How 5 corrosive conspiracy theories made our fight against COVID-19 even harder What I don't like, though, is that sometimes Google, Facebook, etc delete a lot of information that talk against the vaccine (most not encouraging people to not take it just sharing their opinions of it). I think there is a balance between talking about vaccines in a positive/negative way in that (as one RF member told me member told me), that focusing on the other side will lead people not to take the pandemic seriously.

Here it is "Pros and Cons of the Vaccines | COVID-19 Vaccine FAQ | cdc.gov" (Look it up on google... it goes to this site) Benefits of Getting a COVID-19 Vaccine It doesn't list the ...

CDC changed the title... it says Benefits of getting the vaccine instead of Pros/Cons. Slip on their part I guess.
From what I know there are cases where misinformation has been banned, changed ect. So the theory is that they are banning more than that?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
From what I know there are cases where misinformation has been banned, changed ect. So the theory is that they are banning more than that?

I don't believe they were all misinformation. I feel if that's 100% the case there is a huge confirmation bias on provaxxer side in what's going on and it doesn't matter the topic. I mean, for example, if the blood clot thing wasn't serious and misinformation then CDC wouldn't have reported it and google, facebook, etc wouldnt censor it. On the website CDC didn't seem like they downplayed specifically with the reports, but on media and internet they do.

Take this as another example:

I'm not saying the COVID vaccine is bad, wrong, or ineffective... just inside it feels kind of off that people can't see this stuff whether or not they agree with it.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't believe they were all misinformation. I feel if that's 100% the case there is a huge confirmation bias on provaxxer side in what's going on and it doesn't matter the topic. I mean, for example, if the blood clot thing wasn't serious and misinformation then CDC wouldn't have reported it and google, facebook, etc wouldnt censor it. On the website CDC didn't seem like they downplayed specifically with the reports, but on media and internet they do.

Take this as another example:

I'm not saying the COVID vaccine is bad, wrong, or ineffective... just inside it feels kind of off that people can't see this stuff whether or not they agree with it.
I’m kind of confused. You’re surprised that during a global pandemic, medical experts are stressing the importance of taking a vaccine that is designed to slow (even hopefully stop) the spread of COVID?

What do you expect them to do? Of course doctors would stress the importance of vaccines on the news, they’re doctors.
????

Isn’t that a bit like being surprised when a doctor goes on the News and admonishes people for wrongly linking vaccines to autism. Not to mention correctly pointing out how insulting such an imagined link is to those actually on the spectrum in the first place?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I’m kind of confused. You’re surprised that during a global pandemic, medical experts are stressing the importance of taking a vaccine that is designed to slow (even hopefully stop) the spread of COVID?

What do you expect them to do? Of course doctors would stress the importance of vaccines on the news, they’re doctors.
????

No. Don't remember saying that. Where?

Isn’t that a bit like being surprised when a doctor goes on the News and admonishes people for wrongly linking vaccines to autism. Not to mention correctly pointing out how insulting such an imagined link is to those actually on the spectrum in the first place?

I don't know where I said I was surprised???

Which post(s) are you referring to?
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
No. Don't remember saying that. Where?



I don't know where I said I was surprised???

Which post(s) are you referring to?
Oh my apologies. I must have misread your post. That was just the impression I got. I’ll blame it on the hangover ;):(
 

Friend of Mara

Active Member
I don't believe they were all misinformation. I feel if that's 100% the case there is a huge confirmation bias on provaxxer side in what's going on and it doesn't matter the topic. I mean, for example, if the blood clot thing wasn't serious and misinformation then CDC wouldn't have reported it and google, facebook, etc wouldnt censor it. On the website CDC didn't seem like they downplayed specifically with the reports, but on media and internet they do.

Take this as another example:

I'm not saying the COVID vaccine is bad, wrong, or ineffective... just inside it feels kind of off that people can't see this stuff whether or not they agree with it.
Do we have evidence that they are silencing things that are both true and not misrepresented? If so thats def a problem
 
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