Mandatory Vaccinations?

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes, sorry. I’m in Australia. I just find it interesting the way my culture regards “government inference” (for lack of a better phrase) and the way the US does in general. Like what I would consider just normal procedures, my American family seems to regard as too much overreach and an encroachment of human rights and liberties. Just curious is all.

Yes. I've never been out of the country to compare the differences. I think that's a major problem on RF talking about it--different countries and even states are approaching this in different ways. Some state governors are more or less strict than others. Though it also depends on population in addition to morality of the issue.

Interesting. Our government is currently being balled out for failing to vaccinate our population effectively.

By that I mean failing to secure the right amount of vaccines to actually have such a number of vaccinated in the first place. I know we have some backup Moderna stock for “booster” purposes in case more potent strains arise in the future. But the fact that they haven’t secured enough Pfizer and AstraZeneca vaccines to actually get the population vaccinated in the first place is a pretty big PR nightmare for the government right now. Which I find interesting.

Goodness. I can see why that's a problem. Is everyone for the vaccination there?

I saw on the news somewhere in UK (if I'm mistaken) seem to have more demonstrations than I've seen highlighted here... excluding the attack on our US capitol.

Oh really? Weird. Here only kids under 12 and those with medical issues are allowed to be without masks. Not sure why being vaccinated excuses you from a mask during lockdown procedures. Since I’m pretty sure people who are vaccinated can still get the disease, just at a lower rate (presumably.) I wonder if this is a cultural thing?? Or perhaps I’m missing something. I’m no doctor after all.

I saw on a new report today that someone else got COVID even though they were vaccinated. It was a report having to do with supporting and getting others the vaccine and a small clip on some people still getting COVID. It wasn't a downplay. I was going to post it but I think people would think I'm trying to put down the vaccine when the video uplifted it.

Hm. Cultural thing? I don't know. The businesses seem so far to go off of new mandates (for lack of a better word). Some businesses emphasis it more than others.

That is a bit odd, ngl.
To be fair, we’re still at a stage where only the most at risk citizens are even allowed to be vaccinated. Still I can’t imagine such advice would be issued here. Maybe this is another instance of cultural barriers maybe???

I don't know. I haven't really thought of the culture stance and mandates. One business said "Masks are required. We don't make the rules!"

Interesting.
Are you still allowed to travel? We’re not, more or less. They keep changing the rules, honestly.
Sometimes we have a “travel bubble” with New Zealand (our neighbours) then that gets revoked. Then it’s safe again and rinse and repeat. Bloody government, I tell ya

I don't know. I think they're talking about vaccine passports for travel. I'd have to look it up but I wouldn't be surprised. I hope they have an option for COVID checks for the unvaccinated. Unless one is traveling a lot, maybe the minority would op for that.

It is a bit “double unplus good.” I mean I understand the reasoning behind such methods so I will comply. But still. The government knowing my movements is scary all the same. Ewww

Yeah. I get the reasoning too, but I'd be so uncomfortable I'd be ordering from online most the time.

I guess I mean we are kind of looking to countries that have implemented the vaccines more efficiently than us and just how they’re handling the pandemic right now. For our own potential strategies moving forward. You guys already have mandatory vaccines it seems like. So I thought maybe that is a direction my country might be heading towards. I dunno. Maybe I’m just stir crazy with the lockdown right now.

I think to generalize a lot we're doing pretty well. Health organizations are keeping people informed. The people getting the information out from the experts to the public is quite different.

Vaccines are still voluntary but it doesn't feel like it.

Interesting. I can sympathise with your frustrations. It’s all a little…..odd really.

Thanks. I honestly don't know I am like this. It isn't specific to COVID though. Maybe upbringing environment, I don't know.

I’m afraid I’m only really familiar with that through (US based) TV shows. That was like a highly infectious disease spread through particles, right?It was similar to the plague? I can only imagine the fear of such a reality. I’m sorry.

I was about 12 when there was the anthrax scare The Threat of an Anthrax Attack | CDC ... take that I was about 19ish. People ran to get toilet paper and can goods. Around the time of 1999 (the scare so found 2001).

I'd have to look it up again but I remember people didn't want to sit on the toilet stool.

(Quick pick)

Omg right??? During our first lockdown we actually legit ran out of toilet paper and the judgmental stares I got just for buying a pack. Wow. What is with that?

I can understand stocking up on supplies like food and water. But the toilet paper craze still baffles me. Lol

Yeah. I honestly thought it was my area and not the world. Now bring that fear into vaccine instead of toilet paper, you kinda get the feeling but not in a ridiculous point of view just creepy.

I can understand.
Wow. You were allowed to do ignore your vaccines like that?

Where I live if you don’t have your shots (without a legitimate medical reason) then you don’t get to go to school, daycare or anything of the sort. My dad had cancer so it was especially important that I was fully vaccinated so I didn’t accidentally kill him. We were quite aware of the consequences of not vaccinating. Far more than many anti vaxxers seem to be. (Not a judgement, just an observation.) Those people could have killed my father, my Aunty in hospice, my baby nephew with Leukaemia and a number of my at risk relatives at a drop of a hat.

Only in preschool its mandatory. I don't know about other vaccines though. I never taken the flu but I'm sure there are others that people take for critical conditions like your father. Really depends on the circumstance with vaccines.

I’m sorry, I have a hard time sympathising with such a movement, I’m afraid. Selfish and ignorant. And dangerous to my loved ones to boot. Sorry. I really don’t mean to pass any judgement, but I just can’t abide such recklessness in this day and age. This is the age of information and to disregard public health like that. If one is allergic to an ingredient or worried about it in any given vaccine, then fair enough. But such decisions often kill those far more vulnerable than the decision makers. And I’ve seen it first hand. Can’t abide it, emotionally. speaking. Sorry again. I’m speaking more generally about that issue. Not about anything you said specifically. It just grinds my gears that the anti vaxxer movement is allowed to kill loved ones of bystanders and cry victim all the time. Yeah screw them. I know that’s somewhat irrational, but please remember that I grew up in the oncology ward. Where those guys could have killed everyone in there. Men, women and kids.
With families no less. Rant over I guess lol

I can see that. I think of it like this (from an individual point of view). I wake up in the morning, go to work ten minute walk, go to the store just as much, run in the middle of nowhere or park, and go home. I haven't traveled out the area in near 11 years other than going to the cemetery on Mother's day by car. I live alone.

Think of one day you go to sleep fine and the next they tell you you are in danger to everyone in the world. Your situation hasn't change. The people in your environment hasn't changed. Just one day you're okay and the next you're a bomb threat.

I mean people have different views on the pandemic but you can kinda see where I come from?

 

[Friend of Mara]

Yes. It's coercion. It's trying to get people to take the vaccine by eliminating and downplaying the shot and any opinion that speaks against it "and" those facts that are cons.

The video is just one example.

My question is why would provaxxers try to discredit this. It's not encouraging vaxxers not to take the vaccine. Why try to talk against it unless they are more focused on the person giving the info or just assume any person unvaccinated will always say false things. It's a fallacy and it doesn't work unless one has confirmation bias and only see what they want.

I didn't see anything in the video that was downplaying anything though? They talked a bit about some of the unknowns. Unknowns that are now knows since the video is 11 months old.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I didn't see anything in the video that was downplaying anything though? They talked a bit about some of the unknowns.
Unknowns that are now knows since the video is 11 months old.

To get people to get the vaccine you should not need to convince them. There's no need to say a list of side affects and then say "but...." and discredit all the side affects in one breathe and get back to the positives of the vaccines and why people aren't taking them and how people are killing the world for not taking them.

I mean, even if a vaccinated person can "see this" doesn't mean they made a bad a choice... they're just aware (talking in the states) of how media, government, and people are throughout the years not just for COVID but in general.

It's really not a COVID Vaccine thing specifically. Unless people put 100% trust in their country.

 

[Friend of Mara]

To get people to get the vaccine you should not need to convince them. There's no need to say a list of side affects and then say "but...." and discredit all the side affects in one breathe and get back to the positives of the vaccines and why people aren't taking them and how people are killing the world for not taking them.

If you don't convince people how do you get people to get vaccinated? You yourself said that you have to have a reason. The "but" is the most important part of the message.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I didn't see anything in the video that was downplaying anything though? They talked a bit about some of the unknowns. Unknowns that are now knows since the video is 11 months old.

You don't need to convince people to get the vaccine if the information is accurate and both people have the same access to the information. Regardless of who says it, coercion exists in our government and COVID isn't special in these regards.

I can't list all the videos but there are videos on "both sides" and both points good and bad, but to make my point here are youtube titles.... anyway. Just because it's true does that mean it needs to be discredited or completely ignored?

You can look these up If you like.

1. If You're an Anti-Vaxxer, You're an Idiot | The Russell Howard Hour
2. Why US anti-vaxxers will refuse the coronavirus vaccine
3. US: Number of anti-vaxxers continues to climb
4. Anti-vax movement threatens success of COVID-19 vaccine in Texas

Among others, not limited to YouTube.

Let me ask, if you believe me what is wrong with that?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If you don't convince people how do you get people to get vaccinated? You yourself said that you have to have a reason. The "but" is the most important part of the message.

I had to re-do it since my window went out.

Yes... It's like commercial ads when they say a product is good then say "but" and list all the side effects at the bottom of the screen and/or say them so fast because of legal purposes.

The "but" is important to my point not invalidating it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If a vaccinated person agrees with some points of the unvaccinated (whether me or someone else), what is inherently wrong with that?

Even if it's a hypothetical example that vaccinated people wouldn't like to answer from their own opinions, in scenarios between unvaccinated and vaccinated, what's wrong with BOTH agreeing with points of each other side without needing to side with their opponent?

 

[ecco]

Are you skeptical of these numbers or do you accept them because an expert quoted them?

What expert are you thinking of?
Regarding Covid cases and deaths.
Numbers are quoted by state governments from hospitals.
Numbers are consolidated by federal agencies and private companies.
Numbers are gathered by media companies from these sources.

If the Covid numbers are wrong to any major extent, then there are thousands of people involved in a vast conspiracy.

Regarding vaccine effectiveness: Mostly from the results of tests done by the manufacturers. The manufacturer's reports are evaluated by the FDIC and other companies. Results of effectiveness are further verified by Covid hospital patients. No Covid deaths were reported by any hospital for patients who had been vaccinated.

That and quoting numbers (scripture) doesn't magically make people (ideally) jump to take anything that involves their health.

OK. Don't jump. Take your time and evaluate the statistics. But based on your above coent, you don't believe the statistics.

It is a fact that unvaccinated people get the virus. It is as fact that the more people who get the virus, the more chance there is for the virus to mutate into something stronger.

If the virus didn't mutate and if young, unvaccinated children and immune-compromised people couldn't get Covid, I'd spread the word to all those who are hesitant: Do not get the vaccine. Get exposed to Covid and get sick or die. It's OK with me.

Can you find anything that is a con to vaccines in order to assess what experts give you without bias?

What con?
Get vaccinated - don't get Covid.
Don't get vaccinated - get Covid - be an incubator and a spreader - die.
Don't get vaccinated - get Covid - be an incubator and a spreader - recover.
People who get Covid may have few symptoms or may spend months on a ventilator.
Even people who had very mild symptoms have lasting aftereffects.
What con? I don't see any.

Vaccines prevent polio.

Vaccines prevent smallpox.

Vaccines prevent Covid.

Maybe Covid just isn't gruesome enough. Although the relatives of 4,000,000 people would disagree with that.

 

[ecco]

F.Y.I. Healthy Michigan boy, 13, dies in his sleep three days after receiving his second dose of Pfizer Covid vaccine as CDC launches investigation.

Report: 13-year-old dies in sleep after getting COVID-19 vaccine; CDC investigating | CBS 17

My emphases...

13-year-old dies in sleep after receiving Pfizer COVID vaccine; CDC investigating

Martha Sharan, a public affairs officer for the CDC's COVID-19 vaccine task force, wrote in a statement to Newsweek that, "CDC is aware of a 13-year-old boy in Michigan who died after receiving a COVID-19 vaccination. This case is currently under investigation and until the investigation is complete, it is premature to assign a specific cause of death."
​

Had you taken the time to actually do a little research, you would have known that his death has not been attributed to the vaccine.

Or, perhaps you did know that the cause of death had not been attributed to the vaccine but you wanted to push your anti-vax agenda even if it meant twisting the truth.

Please let us know which it is.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What expert are you thinking of?
Regarding Covid cases and deaths.
Numbers are quoted by state governments from hospitals.
Numbers are consolidated by federal agencies and private companies.
Numbers are gathered by media companies from these sources.

If the Covid numbers are wrong to any major extent, then there are thousands of people involved in a vast conspiracy.

Regarding vaccine effectiveness: Mostly from the results of tests done by the manufacturers. The manufacturer's reports are evaluated by the FDIC and other companies. Results of effectiveness are further verified by Covid hospital patients. No Covid deaths were reported by any hospital for patients who had been vaccinated.


OK. Don't jump. Take your time and evaluate the statistics. But based on your above coent, you don't believe the statistics.

It is a fact that unvaccinated people get the virus. It is as fact that the more people who get the virus, the more chance there is for the virus to mutate into something stronger.

If the virus didn't mutate and if young, unvaccinated children and immune-compromised people couldn't get Covid, I'd spread the word to all those who are hesitant: Do not get the vaccine. Get exposed to Covid and get sick or die. It's OK with me.


What con?
Get vaccinated - don't get Covid.
Don't get vaccinated - get Covid - be an incubator and a spreader - die.
Don't get vaccinated - get Covid - be an incubator and a spreader - recover.
People who get Covid may have few symptoms or may spend months on a ventilator.
Even people who had very mild symptoms have lasting aftereffects.
What con? I don't see any.

Vaccines prevent polio.

Vaccines prevent smallpox.

Vaccines prevent Covid.

Maybe Covid just isn't gruesome enough. Although the relatives of 4,000,000 people would disagree with that.

Shock appeal is counterproductive. It actually turns me off. I'm not motivated suffering, sacrifice, dying, and death.

99.9% (quisi-idiom meaning way over a half) of facts are present everywhere about COVID vaccines... that minus 1% (quisi-idiom meaning a minuscule) has anything to do with facts that challenge COVID vaccines.

You literally cannot be blind and ignore the facts of COVID and vaccines unless you're living somewhere in a box.

-

With that said, the experts are those you quoted the wall of information you gave me.

In general, do you question what experts give you or do you take it as is because they said it?

Don't read into the questions.

I. am. not. opposing your information.

 

[ecco]

Unvaccinated are at the same risk before and after the other vaccinated.

That makes no sense.
What makes sense is that unvaccinated people are at far greater risk than vaccinated people.

Question. If a unvaccinated person caught covid and caused death to another unvaccinated person would the vaccinated care?

There are 700,000 dead Americans. All of them got infected by an unvaccinated person.

Once again...
I care only to the extent that people who get Covid are incubators for the virus mutating into something stronger. That has already happened several times.
I care only to the extent that people who get Covid can spread it to people who cannot (for medical complication issues) get vaccinated (or, currently, young children).

Other than that, I'm with Rhett Butler.

 

[ecco]

July 7, 2021 17 Children Dead, More Than 2000 Suffering From Multi System Inflammatory Syndrome Due To COVID Vaccine | GreatGameIndia

WOW! You had to go to an obscure website in India to try to promote your anti-vaxxer position.

GreatGameIndia is India's only quarterly journal on Geopolitics and International Relations providing global intelligence from an Indian perspective.
​

Here are more of their conspiracy tales...

Until January, GreatGameIndia.com—an Indian website that bills itself as a “Journal on Geopolitics and International Relations”—was a microscopic blip on the internet, reaching just 30,000 to 50,000 visitors a month. It published numerous conspiracy theories about anything from Indian politics to the 2014 crash of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 in Ukraine. In contrast, CNN.com has more than 500 million page views a month, and a local newspaper such as the South Florida Sun-Sentinel has more than 4 million monthly page views, according to web analytics firm SimilarWeb.

That changed on January 26, when Great Game India published an article about the origins of the novel coronavirus. The article was called “Coronavirus Bioweapon–How China Stole Coronavirus From Canada And Weaponized It.” The article claimed that two Chinese spies smuggled the virus from a lab in Winnipeg to a military lab in Wuhan, where the virus “leaked” out and began infecting people. (Great Game India did not respond to multiple requests for comment.)
​

You really don't care where you get your garbage from, as long as you can push your quackery.



FACT:
700,000 dead Americans were not vaccinated.
Zero dead Americans from among those who have been vaccinated.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That makes no sense.
What makes sense is that unvaccinated people are at far greater risk than vaccinated people.

Unvaccinated people are at higher risk relative to those who vaccinated.

In other words, vaccinated people lowered their risk of getting COVID. Unvaccinated people stayed the same "unless" they, for example, traveled, not washed their hands, whatever that may make them more acceptable to viruses than those who didn't take similar risks of increased infection.

There are 700,000 dead Americans. All of them got infected by an unvaccinated person.

Once again...
I care only to the extent that people who get Covid are incubators for the virus mutating into something stronger. That has already happened several times.
I care only to the extent that people who get Covid can spread it to people who cannot (for medical complication issues) get vaccinated (or, currently, young children).

Other than that, I'm with Rhett Butler.

I'm not motivated by death, dying, and sacrifice. Whoever needs these deaths to get vaccinated is their prerogative.

You're repeating these things again and again as if they will incite a different reaction or response.

Why?

 

[ecco]

What should we do to get unvaccinated people vaccinated?

At this point, not very much. At this point, the virus is making a comeback. More people are going to die. More businesses are going to be negatively affected. People are going to continue to make excuses for not getting vaccinated.

Why can't the vaccinated acknowledge that there are harsh side affects and that they are rare without needing to discredit the facts just because an unvaccinated person said it?

There have been no harsh side effects. If you know of some from reliable sources, please post them.

On the other side of the coin, death is a pretty harsh side effect. Months on a respirator is a pretty harsh side effect. Of those lucky enough to have gotten only a mild case, 10% are now facing "long-hauler" aftereffects.

i.e. Yes. "People have died and been affected by heart problems and blood clots 'and' I choose to take the vaccine because it's such a rare occurrence, I don't mind taking the risk."

People have not died or been affected by heart problems and blood clots. If you know of some from reliable sources, please post them.

There are long term very serious side affects CDC has taken highly into consideration as they tests these vaccines and their efficiency.

Sigh. If you know of some from reliable sources, please post them.

Why do they need to discredit worse side affects to acknowledge and choose what they feel is right for them (assuming they compared the knowledge instead of going off of one side)?

What is being discredited is garbage conspiracy comments from anti-vaxxers and their bogus sources. If you look through the past several pages in this thread, you will see examples.

Also, I feel if two sides were assessed equally people would be more accepting but when it's one side it's based on bias. It causes a cult mentality that could be avoided without all the politics.

I will accept anything from either side from reliable sources.

A story posted by someone in this thread that ignores "This case is currently under investigation and until the investigation is complete, it is premature to assign a specific cause of death” is nothing more than anti-vaxxer propaganda.

A story linked from an Indian conspiracy website: 17 Children Dead, More Than 2000 Suffering From Multi System Inflammatory Syndrome Due To COVID Vaccine | GreatGameIndia
is nothing more than anti-vaxxer propaganda.

Saying one is protecting people as vaccinated people doesn't justify the hate that is caused because of it.

I think it's a damn shame that 700,000 Americans are dead. It's a bigger shame that people are continuing to be hospitalized and die. By now every person in this country could have been vaccinated. There is no excuse for anyone getting sick or dying of Covid.

All infected people are incubators and spreaders. Should they be hated? They certainly should be despised for allowing this pandemic to continue.

 

[ecco]

For example lung cancer "will" kill you faster than covid "might."

Really? Where did you get your information.

An estimated 142,670 lung cancer deaths are expected to occur in 2019 in the United States,

In the sixteen months beginning in March 2010, 700,000 Covid deaths occurred in the United States.

 

[ecco]

Unvaccinated people are at higher risk relative to those who vaccinated.

Yes. That is what I said.

In other words, vaccinated people lowered their risk of getting COVID.

Yes. That is what I said.

Unvaccinated people stayed the same "unless" they, for example, traveled, not washed their hands, whatever that may make them more acceptable to viruses than those who didn't take similar risks of increased infection.

That is a moot point. The only valid point is the comparison between the vaccinated and the unvaccinated.

You're repeating these things again and again as if they will incite a different reaction or response.

That's a good point. So, go ahead and continue to say you aren't against vaccines. Continue to compare anti-vaxxer conspiracy pushers to reliable sources. Continue to mix apples and oranges. Continue to blatantly post false information.

Bye.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

At this point, not very much. At this point, the virus is making a comeback. More people are going to die. More businesses are going to be negatively affected. People are going to continue to make excuses for not getting vaccinated.

Yes. You and others repeat this over and over and expect a different response, why?

There have been no harsh side effects. If you know of some from reliable sources, please post them.

On the other side of the coin, death is a pretty harsh side effect. Months on a respirator is a pretty harsh side effect. Of those lucky enough to have gotten only a mild case, 10% are now facing "long-hauler" aftereffects.

Reactions and Adverse Events of the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine | CDC

Are you saying COVID vaccines are 100% effective?

I rather hear vaccinated people say "hey, there are harsh side affects-heart/blood cots/etc but I chose to take the vaccine anyway cause the risk isn't as high as getting COVID."

You don't have to discredit the facts, just be mindful both sides are needed to make a sound decision about your health.

People have not died or been affected by heart problems and blood clots. If you know of some from reliable sources, please post them.

Fallacy here. You're trying to make my argument false by asking me to post a load of information CDC and media posted on vaccine side affects and potential connections between the vaccines and other illnesses etc. I mean, it's one thing to know these things and still choose to be vaccinated... it's awhole 'nother to disregard it all together.

Sigh. If you know of some from reliable sources, please post them.

Fallacy here. You'd shoot them down anyhow. Go to the CDC site, though. It will give you insight.

Also, if vaccinated people have symptoms they are concerned about they can also go here COVID-19 Vaccination

What is being discredited is garbage conspiracy comments from anti-vaxxers and their bogus sources. If you look through the past several pages in this thread, you will see examples.

You're talking to the wrong person. I never discredit the COVID vaccine. Never encouraged people not to take it. Never believed in any conspiracy theories.

I will accept anything from either side from reliable sources.

A story posted by someone in this thread that ignores "This case is currently under investigation and until the investigation is complete, it is premature to assign a specific cause of death” is nothing more than anti-vaxxer propaganda.

You don't even know me Ecco. All my replies have been me-centered. Anything about provaxxers, their choice, conspiracy theories (which I don't know all of them), are irrelevant.

I think it's a damn shame that 700,000 Americans are dead. It's a bigger shame that people are continuing to be hospitalized and die. By now every person in this country could have been vaccinated. There is no excuse for anyone getting sick or dying of Covid.

All infected people are incubators and spreaders. Should they be hated? They certainly should be despised for allowing this pandemic to continue.

I'm not motivated by deaths to take the vaccine. You'd have to go a different angle if you'd like a different response from the information you're repeating.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Really? Where did you get your information.

An estimated 142,670 lung cancer deaths are expected to occur in 2019 in the United States,

In the sixteen months beginning in March 2010, 700,000 Covid deaths occurred in the United States.

Sounds like fear here or cognitive dissonance or something or other. Every illness have their degree of severity in relation to others.. some better and some worse.

Lung cancer, COVID, reaction to blood clots, etc are ALL serious health conditions.

I'm sure we don't need to compare deaths to know this right?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That's a good point. So, go ahead and continue to say you aren't against vaccines. Continue to compare anti-vaxxer conspiracy pushers to reliable sources. Continue to mix apples and oranges. Continue to blatantly post false information.

I think if a vaccinated person posted the same information it would be met differently to tell you honestly.

Facts don't change based on the person who posted it.

Look at the CDC links I posted.

This is not discouraging people to take the vaccine

or any of that anti-vaxxer nonsense.

Assess both sides just as CDC, WHO, and others do and make decisions based on both criteria and whether one choose to vaccinated or not would be based on sound knowledge.

Attacking me, my intelligence, etc doesn't invalidate to think about your own health and others to look at both sides objectively.

 

[Martin]

Jab em all, and let God sort em out.