Mandatory Vaccinations?

[ecco]

I'm reminded of conversations from last fall with Trump supporters.



I asked them to list Trump's accomplishments. They couldn't use The Wall which had very little work done on it and was paid for with American tax dollars (not Mexican contributions).

They couldn't use the restoration of coal miner's jobs, there were none.



One thing Trump supporters touted was Trump's leadership in getting vaccines expedited so that Americans would be safe from COVID. I pointed out that all he did was prepay for vaccines from two producers. That didn't matter, getting the vaccines quickly was one of the great accomplishments of the Trump administration.



Then talk about vaccines faded as The Big Lie became the topic of choice.



Now, the very people who touted Trump's Great Accomplishment are the ones who are not taking the vaccines and who are promoting their anti-COVID-vaccination agenda.



How really ridiculous. The sheeples would rather risk severe illness and death than agree with 'librul' scientists about their health and the welfare of every one around them.

 

[Suave]

A link would have been nice. But that's OK, I did the work for you...

You are correct, Deaths from among vaccinated people is now about 1000. 1000 dead from 157,000,000 vaccinated people.

Death rate among the unvaccinated population:
700,000 of 300,000,000 .0023
Death rate among the vaccinated population:
1000 of 157,000,000 .0000063

None of the manufacturers claimed the vaccine would be 100% effective. Claims of effectiveness did not include new strains that have cropped up because unvaccinated people breed new strains.

My emphases in following.

Keep an eye on breakthrough Covid-19 cases. But don’t freak out.

At the same time, it’s clear that vaccines are not impregnable. As more people have become immunized against Covid-19, the number of breakthrough infections — cases of people getting infected after getting their shots — has gone up. That’s not a surprise.

“Vaccine breakthrough cases are expected,” according to the CDC.

That’s because no vaccine is 100 percent effective at blocking an infection in all circumstances.

As of July 6, the CDC reported 5,186 cases of breakthrough Covid-19 cases that led to severe disease among 157 million fully vaccinated people in the US. That’s about a 0.003 percent breakthrough rate for severe disease

So breakthrough infections are rare, even among people who are more vulnerable.

Compare that with the state of the pandemic in December before vaccines were widespread: 6.3 million new infections, 123,000 hospitalizations, and more than 65,000 deaths from Covid-19 were recorded that month. Even with less than half the US population currently vaccinated, Covid-19 vaccines have helped cause a huge drop in cases.


The best strategy for preventing breakthrough infections is increasing vaccination rates further, getting to the point where enough people are immunized to prevent SARS-CoV-2 from jumping person to person easily. The added benefit of vaccinations is that they also reduce opportunities for mutation.
​

Did you read that last paragraph? Do you understand it?

I'm mRNA vaccinated against C.O.V.I.D.-19, because I did not want to risk any chance of me once again contracting the SARS-Cov2 virus and consequently spreading the disease to anybody around me who is not very well immune against C.O.V.I.D.-19. That being stated, just because being vaccinated might significantly lower the death rate of the overall population being infected from C.O.V.I.D.-19 by a factor of ca. 300, does not necessarily mean everybody should be vaccinated. The death rate of being infected by C.O.V.I.D.19 is extremely low among adolescent males and boys, but they may be at the greatest risk of getting heart inflammation by being mRNA vaccinated. I'm not yet convinced, they should take a possibly (edit) ** 1 in 20,000 chance of getting hospitalized due to heart inflammation ** by being vaccinated in exchange for having near certain immunity against a disease they would otherwise likely have just a merely (edit) ** one in 200,000 chance** of dying by contracting the SARS-Cov2 virus.

 

[ecco]

The death rate of being infected by C.O.V.I.D.19 is extremely low among adolescent males and boys, ...

Currently!
This group has been in isolation for over a year. Now with summer camps and school starting and COVID mutations, that may change - rapidly. It's too late to get a preventive vaccination after you are diagnosed.

I'm not yet convinced, they should take a possibly 1 in 30,000 chance of getting heart inflammation by being vaccinated in exchange for having near certain immunity against a disease they would otherwise likely have a one in 300,000 chance of dying by contracting the SARS-Cov2 virus.

It's not just about comparing heart inflammation rates versus COVID death rates. It's also about weeks or months on intubation. It's about the 10% long haulers.

I personally know one. She had such a mild case of COVID, that she was surprised when she tested positive. She is now taking time off from work. Her symptoms include fatigue and degradation of mental acuity. This anecdotal instance is confirmed by CDC studies and findings.

 

[Suave]

Currently!
This group has been in isolation for over a year. Now with summer camps and school starting and COVID mutations, that may change - rapidly. It's too late to get a preventive vaccination after you are diagnosed.





It's not just about comparing heart inflammation rates versus COVID death rates. It's also about weeks or months on intubation. It's about the 10% long haulers.

I personally know one. She had such a mild case of COVID, that she was surprised when she tested positive. She is now taking time off from work. Her symptoms include fatigue and degradation of mental acuity. This anecdotal instance is confirmed by CDC studies and findings.

Sorry, my bad, you missed the edited version of my last post. Being hospitalized due to heart inflammation is a serious consideration.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yeah. Because it isn't the provaxxer side. Its just the medical community. Just like the prosurgery community. The promedicine community. Now there are certain gaps in medicine that I disagree with but it is almost always because of profit motive of pharmaceutical companies.

I don't know too many who trust the medical community 100% for anything. Ideally, they ask "what's the worse that can happen?" And make decisions based in facts, other factors, personal choice.

Most my childhood life I've been in and out the hospital. Is be dead if I wasn't skeptical to get second, third, and fourth opinions and just as much dead if my family didn't go by instinct as well.

Provaxxer meaning those for the vaccine and anti meaning against.

Unless you're neutral in the emotional debate, which many unvaccinated and vaccinated people are, people pretty much chosen aside. Personally, I can careless who vaccinated and who does not. Pro/anti do

 

[Suave]

Currently!
This group has been in isolation for over a year. Now with summer camps and school starting and COVID mutations, that may change - rapidly. It's too late to get a preventive vaccination after you are diagnosed.





It's not just about comparing heart inflammation rates versus COVID death rates. It's also about weeks or months on intubation. It's about the 10% long haulers.

I personally know one. She had such a mild case of COVID, that she was surprised when she tested positive. She is now taking time off from work. Her symptoms include fatigue and degradation of mental acuity. This anecdotal instance is confirmed by CDC studies and findings.

I would agree most working age people as well as retirees should be vaccinated against C.O.V.I.D-19.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Presumably the unvaccinated risk of death will be lower for young people.

That "it's not so bad for younger people" really needs to die. We've long knew, since earlier on, that age is a primary risk for covid BUT kids are not safe from it. We emphasized the hell out of the age risk to the point there were many surprised news reports when kids too were getting horribly ill and dying from it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Unless you're neutral in the emotional debate, which many unvaccinated and vaccinated people are, people pretty much chosen aside. Personally, I can careless who vaccinated and who does not. Pro/anti do

Ive yet to meet one who is actually neutral. Selfishness and "my rights" are the most common excuses. Followed by fear based on misinformation and a lack of information.

 

[Suave]

That "it's not so bad for younger people" really needs to die. We've long knew, since earlier on, that age is a primary risk for covid BUT kids are not safe from it. We emphasized the hell out of the age risk to the point there were many surprised news reports when kids too were getting horribly ill and dying from it.

I'd like each young adult considering to get mRNA C.O.V.I.D.-19 vaccinated to be fully aware of the higher than expected cases of myocarditis/pericarditis observed among mRNA C.O.V.I.D.-19 vaccinated young adults ( according to the CDC, there have been more than 300 hospitalizations because of myocarditis among 12- to 29-year-olds in the U.S. believed to be related to the mRNA vaccines) in comparison to the risk of not being vaccinated and there being a very small infection fatality rate of 0.01153 percent among C.O.V.I.D-19 infected young adults ages 18 thru age 29.

CDC based data source references Cases, Data, and Surveillance ,
Cases, Data, and Surveillance,

Per CDC data, there have been an estimated 22,203,414 persons age 5 thru age17 infected by C.O.V.I.D.-19 as of the end of March 2021, Cases, Data, and Surveillance

I figure 256 deaths out of 22,203,414 infections would equal approximately 1.153 deaths out of 100,000 infections. 1.153/100,000 would equal an infection fatality rate of 0.001153 percent.

Per CDC data the rate of death by C.O.V.I.D.-19 is 10x higher for age group 18 thru age 29 than is the 0.001153 percent C.O.V.I.D.-19 infection fatality rate pertaining the referenced age group of age 5 thru age 17. This means the C.O.V.I.D-19 infection fatality rate would be approximately 0.01153 percent for the U.S. population within the age group of age18 thru age 29.

Cases, Data, and Surveillance

Per CDC data, there were 2,667 deaths of out an estimated 15,325,708 cases of flu during the 2019 to 2020 influenza season for the segment of U.S, population belonging to the age group 18 thru age 49. Reference: Estimated Influenza Illnesses, Medical visits, Hospitalizations, and Deaths in the United States — 2019–2020 Influenza Season | CDC

Per CDC data, the flu's case fatality rate for age group 18 thru age 49 is 2,667 deaths out of an estimated 15,325,708 cases of flu illnesses, which equals approximately 17.43 deaths out of a 100,000 cases of flu illness for this age group. This means the influenza's case fatality rate for the segment of U.S. population from ages 18 thru age 49 during the 2019-2020 influenza season is 0.1743 percent.

Of course, each young adult person contemplating being vaccinated should consider if the benefit of having certain immunity against a disease, which likely has an infection fatality rate pertaining to these young adults that is many times lower than influenza's case fatality rate pertaining to adults between the ages of 18 to 49, outweighs the increased risk of getting hospitalized due to heart inflammation by being mRNA C.O.V.I.D.-19 vaccinated.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Ive yet to meet one who is actually neutral. Selfishness and "my rights" are the most common excuses. Followed by fear based on misinformation and a lack of information.

I live pretty much alone. I wouldn't have known about it if I wasn't told. Most people are political minded, though. I figure I'm not special in not paying no mind in to who shouldn't/should take the vaccine. Maybe there are a minority within a minority somewhere who lives more secluded than I do.

I do believe many unvaccinated have the same access to facts as vaccinated. I honestly can't connect choosing not to vaccinate with ignorance objectively speaking.

Likewise,I'm sure there are ignorant vaccinated people who took the shot based on their impulse and not on facts.

It's like, excuse the comparison, a Christian telling a well versed atheist he made the wrong decision to leave Christ after the latter read the bible.

There are ignorant people both vaccinated and unvaccinated.

How can you tell whose ignorant objectively speaking Only based on their choice to vaccinate?

How did you derive that conclusion?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Ive yet to meet one who is actually neutral. Selfishness and "my rights" are the most common excuses. Followed by fear based on misinformation and a lack of information.

I think @Suave is pretty neutral. Being vaccinated or not doesn't tell anyone the facts they looked at to make their decisions. That's literally on the part of the person judging.

.. it's also projection. Vaccinated taking their feelings on antivaxxers and applying it to all unvaccinated who live all over the world.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'd like each young adult considering to get mRNA C.O.V.I.D.-19 vaccinated to be fully aware of the higher than expected cases of myocarditis/pericarditis observed among mRNA C.O.V.I.D.-19 vaccinated young adults ( according to the CDC, there have been more than 300 hospitalizations because of myocarditis among 12- to 29-year-olds in the U.S. believed to be related to the mRNA vaccines) in comparison to the risk of not being vaccinated and there being a very small infection fatality rate of 0.01153 percent among C.O.V.I.D-19 infected young adults ages 18 thru age 29.

CDC based data source references Cases, Data, and Surveillance ,
Cases, Data, and Surveillance,

Per CDC data, there have been an estimated 22,203,414 persons age 5 thru age17 infected by C.O.V.I.D.-19 as of the end of March 2021, Cases, Data, and Surveillance

I figure 256 deaths out of 22,203,414 infections would equal approximately 1.153 deaths out of 100,000 infections. 1.153/100,000 would equal an infection fatality rate of 0.001153 percent.

Per CDC data the rate of death by C.O.V.I.D.-19 is 10x higher for age group 18 thru age 29 than is the 0.001153 percent C.O.V.I.D.-19 infection fatality rate pertaining the referenced age group of age 5 thru age 17. This means the C.O.V.I.D-19 infection fatality rate would be approximately 0.01153 percent for the U.S. population within the age group of age18 thru age 29.

Cases, Data, and Surveillance

Per CDC data, there were 2,667 deaths of out an estimated 15,325,708 cases of flu during the 2019 to 2020 influenza season for the segment of U.S, population belonging to the age group 18 thru age 49. Reference: Estimated Influenza Illnesses, Medical visits, Hospitalizations, and Deaths in the United States — 2019–2020 Influenza Season | CDC

Per CDC data, the flu's case fatality rate for age group 18 thru age 49 is 2,667 deaths out of an estimated 15,325,708 cases of flu illnesses, which equals approximately 17.43 deaths out of a 100,000 cases of flu illness for this age group. This means the influenza's case fatality rate for the segment of U.S. population from ages 18 thru age 49 during the 2019-2020 influenza season is 0.1743 percent.

Of course, each young adult person contemplating being vaccinated should consider if the benefit of having certain immunity against a disease, which likely has an infection fatality rate pertaining to these young adults that is many times lower than influenza's case fatality rate pertaining to adults between the ages of 18 to 49, outweighs the increased risk of getting hospitalized due to heart inflammation by being mRNA C.O.V.I.D.-19 vaccinated.

Per the CDC there have been about 20,000,000 doses administered among that age group. 300 hospitilizations would be a risk of approximately .000015%. That's still lower than the covid fatality rare.
And this is a collective effort. The more unvaccinated people running around the more chances covid has to mutate. And it's already done that a bunch of time, with the latest and deadliest seeing the return of mask mandates.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I think @Suave is pretty neutral. Being vaccinated or not doesn't tell anyone the facts they looked at to make their decisions. That's literally on the part of the person judging.

.. it's also projection. Vaccinated taking their feelings on antivaxxers and applying it to all unvaccinated who live all over the world.

Ultimately, electing to not get vaccinated when you can is putting others at risk. This is why things like measles have been making a comeback, because people only want to think about themselves and not how their actions effect others.

 

[Suave]

Per the CDC there have been about 20,000,000 doses administered among that age group. 300 hospitilizations would be a risk of approximately .000015%. That's still lower than the covid fatality rare.
And this is a collective effort. The more unvaccinated people running around the more chances covid has to mutate. And it's already done that a bunch of time, with the latest and deadliest seeing the return of mask mandates.

If I understand the data collection timeline correctly, the 300 hospitalizations were as of June 23rd; I'm not sure that 20 million doses of mRNA vaccines against C.O.V.I.D-19 were administered by that time. Keep in mind 2 doses of mRNA vaccines are needed to fully vaccinate one person, also please also keep in mind these few hundred hospitalizations were of predominately young adult men. I presume, half the ten million or five million would consist of males belonging to this age group having been fully vaccinated. .So then, 300 men ages 18 to 29 being hospitalized from heart inflammation by being mRNA vaccinated out of 5 million men ages 18 to 29 having been vaccinated would equal a one out of a 16,667 chance ( 0.006 percent chance ) of MRNA vaccinated young men ages 18 to 29 being hospitalized due to heart inflammation caused by the mRNA vaccine.

Per CDC data, the infection fatality rate of somebody age 18 to 29 dying from C.O.V.I.D.-19 is about one out of 20,000, or (0.005 percent chance).

I figure a male age 18 to 29 has a comparable chance of being hospitalized due to heart inflammation by being mRNA vaccinated against C.O.V.I.D.-19 as he has of dying by contracting the SARS-Cov2 virus.

 

[Watchmen]

Always nice to visit a Covid thread and see that tribalism is alive and well.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Ultimately, electing to not get vaccinated when you can is putting others at risk. This is why things like measles have been making a comeback, because people only want to think about themselves and not how their actions effect others.

But this has nothing to do with information. It's not "scripture." People-vax/unvax make the best choice with the info they have.

If you want to blame them for making the wrong decisions that's on you. That's totally different than discrediting their knowledge based on their decision.

I also don't feel it's wise that vaccinated people should rush to be vaccinated with only "cause I may be a potential killer." Do you guys really need death, sacrifice, and dying to make decisions for you and others health?

It works both sides.

 

[Friend of Mara]

I don't know too many who trust the medical community 100% for anything. Ideally, they ask "what's the worse that can happen?" And make decisions based in facts, other factors, personal choice.

Most my childhood life I've been in and out the hospital. Is be dead if I wasn't skeptical to get second, third, and fourth opinions and just as much dead if my family didn't go by instinct as well.

Provaxxer meaning those for the vaccine and anti meaning against.

Unless you're neutral in the emotional debate, which many unvaccinated and vaccinated people are, people pretty much chosen aside. Personally, I can careless who vaccinated and who does not. Pro/anti do

You don't have to trust 100% everything 100% of the time but to trust a reasonable amount when reasonable. Vaccines have an incredible track record. Probably one of the best out of anything one can take as an example from the medical field.

 

[Martin]

Always nice to visit a Covid thread and see that tribalism is alive and well.

I don't see it as tribalism so much as different perspectives on risks and benefits.

Individual risk v. Societal risk.
Personal health v. Public health.
The good of the one v. The good of the many.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You don't have to trust 100% everything 100% of the time but to trust a reasonable amount when reasonable. Vaccines have an incredible track record. Probably one of the best out of anything one can take as an example from the medical field.

Do you believe having a track record (which varies which vaccine, company, and country) means it works 100% without side effects?

How much do you place in medical field insofar you don't take it for granted? Have you objectively looked at the other side?

 

[Kooky]

I don't see it as tribalism so much as different perspectives on risks and benefits.

Specifically, it's about pushing all risk onto other people, and trying to only reap the benefits instead.