Mandatory Vaccinations?

[ecco]

I figure a male age 18 to 29 has a comparable chance of being hospitalized due to heart inflammation by being mRNA vaccinated against C.O.V.I.D.-19 as he has of dying by contracting the SARS-Cov2 virus.

Yep.

What you are affirming is that a 20 year old male can get vaccinated and have a (0.006 percent chance ) of being hospitalized due to heart inflammation caused by the mRNA vaccine. So far these hospitalizations have been mild with most (everyone?) being discharged within a few days.

What you are affirming is that a 20 year old male can skip the vaccine and have a (0.005 percent chance) of dying. So far these deaths have been terminal with no one surviving.

Hmm. Unless I was a complete Born-Again Bible Believing Christian certain of everlasting existence, I'd sure get the shot.

Also, if the past is any clue, the case rate and the death rate among that group is going to increase due to all social distancing rules being dropped in colleges, bars, and restaurants.

 

[Friend of Mara]

Do you believe having a track record (which varies which vaccine, company, and country) means it works 100% without side effects?

How much do you place in medical field insofar you don't take it for granted? Have you objectively looked at the other side?

Well typically I put my faith in the FDA. The covid is a little special given the circumstances. But by in large vaccinations are incredibly safe and I haven't come across any of the very public information that would make me question them. Kind of like how I trust a building to be sturdy and not collapse when I go into them.

 

[ecco]

I don't see it as tribalism so much as different perspectives on risks and benefits.

Individual risk v. Societal risk.
Personal health v. Public health.
The good of the one v. The good of the many.

The unvaccinated people who I have spoken to have not taken your public / private arguments into consideration. In general, it was gut feel vs science; "knowledge" vs governmental pressure; religious Trump supporter vs rational people.

 

[SomeRandom]

The unvaccinated people who I have spoken to have not taken your public / private arguments into consideration. In general, it was gut feel vs science; "knowledge" vs governmental pressure; religious Trump supporter vs rational people.

You know what’s kind of “interesting” to me?
My entire life I’ve heard people (both inside and outside of the medical field) lament that maybe (my) generation needs a pandemic again to realise the value of vaccines.
Well we have our pandemic, even got much more deadly and easier to transmit strains of it forcing government measures (at least where I live) and still the anti vaxx mentality rears it’s head.

 

[Suave]

Yep.

What you are affirming is that a 20 year old male can get vaccinated and have a (0.006 percent chance ) of being hospitalized due to heart inflammation caused by the mRNA vaccine. So far these hospitalizations have been mild with most (everyone?) being discharged within a few days.

What you are affirming is that a 20 year old male can skip the vaccine and have a (0.005 percent chance) of dying. So far these deaths have been terminal with no one surviving.

Hmm. Unless I was a complete Born-Again Bible Believing Christian certain of everlasting existence, I'd sure get the shot.

Also, if the past is any clue, the case rate and the death rate among that group is going to increase due to all social distancing rules being dropped in colleges, bars, and restaurants.

Yep.

What you are affirming is that a 20 year old male can get vaccinated and have a (0.006 percent chance ) of being hospitalized due to heart inflammation caused by the mRNA vaccine. So far these hospitalizations have been mild with most (everyone?) being discharged within a few days.

What you are affirming is that a 20 year old male can skip the vaccine and have a (0.005 percent chance) of dying. So far these deaths have been terminal with no one surviving.

Hmm. Unless I was a complete Born-Again Bible Believing Christian certain of everlasting existence, I'd sure get the shot.

Also, if the past is any clue, the case rate and the death rate among that group is going to increase due to all social distancing rules being dropped in colleges, bars, and restaurants.

Men in their 20s maybe risking a 1 in 20,000 chance of being hospitalized due to heart inflammation caused by being mRNA vaccinated in exchange for near certain immunity against a disease that has roughly a 1 in 20,000 chance of killing them, but adolescents only have about a 1 in 200,000 chance of dying from being infected by SARS-Cov2. I would agree young adults should be vaccinated if the chance of them being hospitalized due to heart inflammation caused by being mRNA vaccinated from which they are likely to fully recover is comparable to the odds of them dying from contracting C.O.V.I.D.-19. However, please keep in mind, adolescents may very well have ten times the risk of being hospitalized by being vaccinated than the risk to them of not being vaccinated and dying by C.O.V.I.D.-19. Hence, I am not convinced any male under the age of 18 should necessarily be mRNA vaccinated against C.O.V.I.D.-19.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Well typically I put my faith in the FDA. The covid is a little special given the circumstances. But by in large vaccinations are incredibly safe and I haven't come across any of the very public information that would make me question them. Kind of like how I trust a building to be sturdy and not collapse when I go into them.

They are safe and they have side effects. People take the risk because the odds are so low to suffer from big life threatening side effects. Which is fine. People take risks all the time when they have a illness that warrants that decision.

The difference is this is still experimental: the experts know this and they triple check the efficiency of the vaccines and people who choose to take it is their decision.

The problem is blaming people and calling people ignorant for making a choice contrary to what experts, media, and provaxxers want them to take. I think any people would take it of not for the coersion and push. I mean even fear can make someone choose to not vaccinate "and" fear can lead people to vaccinate.

It's interesting to watch from afar. But those who hate antivaxxers is not the fault of the unvaccinated. We can control our emotions to an extent and justifying it by saying thousands of people died doesn't make it less wrong.

I mean I admit both sides may not look into everything objectively depending on the info available, where they live, etc.

Anyway. Shrugs. Everyone's different, different circumstances, etc. Best to respect that.

 

[Friend of Mara]

They are safe and they have side effects. People take the risk because the odds are so low to suffer from big life threatening side effects. Which is fine. People take risks all the time when they have a illness that warrants that decision.

The difference is this is still experimental: the experts know this and they triple check the efficiency of the vaccines and people who choose to take it is their decision.

The problem is blaming people and calling people ignorant for making a choice contrary to what experts, media, and provaxxers want them to take. I think any people would take it of not for the coersion and push. I mean even fear can make someone choose to not vaccinate "and" fear can lead people to vaccinate.

It's interesting to watch from afar. But those who hate antivaxxers is not the fault of the unvaccinated. We can control our emotions to an extent and justifying it by saying thousands of people died doesn't make it less wrong.

I mean I admit both sides may not look into everything objectively depending on the info available, where they live, etc.

Anyway. Shrugs. Everyone's different, different circumstances, etc. Best to respect that.

We've had this back and forth enough I think. Final thoughts are different for people who are skeptical of vaccines in general and the mostly politically motivated issue they have with specifically covid vaccine. They seem to be very different things. So my opinion of people's decision differs depending on which camp they are in.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

We've had this back and forth enough I think. Final thoughts are different for people who are skeptical of vaccines in general and the mostly politically motivated issue they have with specifically covid vaccine. They seem to be very different things. So my opinion of people's decision differs depending on which camp they are in.

I think there's a difference between being skeptical of any vaccines or just medical treatment in general. It's natural (in my opinion) to be skeptical of "any" treatment a person has that will benefit their health and well-being. Usually, these things are spoken with a person's doctor or like health professional. Usually, health professionals won't tell you to take something because it works and science backs it up. Instead, they'd address your personal situation and go from there. COVID vaccines (and anything promoted to help people's well-being) that aren't addressed and spoke with a person's doctor is pretty much a touch and go thing.

There is nothing inherently wrong with the vaccine.

People take risks all the time and regardless the facts it ultimately depends on the person-their decisions.

I am honestly not sure how you connect unvaccinated=ignorant or so have you. It's a huge generalization for me to say that unvaccinated person in France is ignorant just as unvaccinated person in Japan.

There is sooo much more involved that makes the anti/pro vaxxer argument quite silly.

 

[Friend of Mara]

I am honestly not sure how you connect unvaccinated=ignorant or so have you.

You have said "they have access to the same information" a lot. But why is it that people who are against vaccinations in general don't believe certain information? Some would say the most crucial information?

There is sooo much more involved that makes the anti/pro vaxxer argument quite silly.

I agree but probably in the opposite direction as you.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You have said "they have access to the same information" a lot. But why is it that people who are against vaccinations in general don't believe certain information? Some would say the most crucial information?

I don't know. Each person is different. For example in one country vaccine production may have worse side affects depending on how its being processed while in another country they're doing a better job with it. So, depending on economical factors and so forth people would have a reason to be skeptical as opposed to other places.

The vaccinated/unvaccinated decisions can't be seen in a vacuum. It may be illogical but that's totally different than saying one is ignorant or uncaring for something we don't understand and disagree with.

I agree but probably in the opposite direction as you.

The emotionalism and hate can't be justified by saying "thousands of people are dying." I guess silly is a nice way to put it.

Outside of that, it's really take it or not. I personally can only say someone is not caring behavior if they had COVID and willingfully be around people to spread it to others. I can't blame people for just not being vaccinated. I don't know people's situation to judge their decisions unless their decisions Are harming people.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I mean @Friend of Mara If someone in one side of town has a 20% (made up number) chance of getting COVID in a populated are and the other side of two may have 70% chance of catching COVID in a low populated area (assuming a person Does have COVID in the population), since I don't know whose more at risk than another it's not right to accuse the 20% of people as if they were part of the majority that have a higher chance of getting it.

All I can do is respect their decisions and if they are the 70% I can see the problem but if it's the 20% chance, I wouldn't blame people to not vaccinated. Truly. Truly depends on the situation.

Illogical is fine but objectively there is a whole mot more than than just being unvaccinated.

Edited.

 

[ecco]

You know what’s kind of “interesting” to me?
My entire life I’ve heard people (both inside and outside of the medical field) lament that maybe (my) generation needs a pandemic again to realise the value of vaccines.
Well we have our pandemic, even got much more deadly and easier to transmit strains of it forcing government measures (at least where I live) and still the anti vaxx mentality rears it’s head.

It would be puzzling if one did not recognize the vast anti-science sentiment in this country. As far as I'm concerned, that starts with religious indoctrination.

Science says evolution, religious fundamentalism says Adam & Eve. No one can believe both. Children who are taught believe Adam & Eve have an immediate distrust of science.

This also leads to gullibility in other areas. Millions believed Trump would magically erect an impenetrable wall and Mexico would pay for it. Coal miners believed Trump would magically restore their jobs. Millions believe Clinton was/is running a child pedophile ring out of a pizza parlor basement. Then QAnon came along to really fuel the fires. And finally Trump and the Big Lie.

 

[ecco]

Men in their 20s maybe risking a 1 in 20,000 chance of being hospitalized due to heart inflammation caused by being mRNA vaccinated in exchange for near certain immunity against a disease that has roughly a 1 in 20,000 chance of killing them, but adolescents only have about a 1 in 200,000 chance of dying from being infected by SARS-Cov2. I would agree young adults should be vaccinated if the chance of them being hospitalized due to heart inflammation caused by being mRNA vaccinated from which they are likely to fully recover is comparable to the odds of them dying from contracting C.O.V.I.D.-19. However, please keep in mind, adolescents may very well have ten times the risk of being hospitalized by being vaccinated than the risk to them of not being vaccinated and dying by C.O.V.I.D.-19. Hence, I am not convinced any male under the age of 18 should necessarily be mRNA vaccinated against C.O.V.I.D.-19.

You are entitled to your opinion.

Meanwhile, the case rate and the death rate are on the increase in a country where everyone could have been vaccinated by now.

 

[ecco]

I mean @Friend of Mara If someone in one side of town has a 20% (made up number) chance of getting COVID in a populated are and the other side of two may have 70% chance of catching COVID in a low populated area (assuming a person Does have COVID in the population), since I don't know whose more at risk than another it's not right to accuse the 20% of people as if they were part of the majority that have a higher chance of getting it.

All I can do is respect their decisions and if they are the 70% I can see the problem but if it's the 20% chance, I wouldn't blame people to not vaccinated. Truly. Truly depends on the situation.

There is little or no information on which side of any town is riskier than another. For that reason alone your argument has no basis in fact.

You keep coming up with made-up rationales for not getting the vaccine. Why not just come out and admit you don't want to get the vaccine because you don't trust science?

Illogical is fine but objectively there is a whole mot more than than just being unvaccinated.

Then why have you been unable to present any argument based on logic?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Unvaccinated people are at higher risk relative to those who vaccinated.

In other words, vaccinated people lowered their risk of getting COVID. Unvaccinated people stayed the same "unless" they, for example, traveled, not washed their hands, whatever that may make them more acceptable to viruses than those who didn't take similar risks of increased infection.

Unvaccinated people spread new variants, which we're trying to avoid if we want to get rid of this thing.
In other words, unvaccinated people are holding us all back from getting back to normal.

I'm not motivated by death, dying, and sacrifice. Whoever needs these deaths to get vaccinated is their prerogative.

I don't know why you wouldn't be. Four Million dead people in the world motivates me to want to do something about it.

Luckily, scientists care about reducing deaths too.

You're repeating these things again and again as if they will incite a different reaction or response.

Why?

You don't seem to be getting it?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Unvaccinated people spread new variants, which we're trying to avoid if we want to get rid of this thing.
In other words, unvaccinated people are holding us all back from getting back to normal.

True. They could. I wouldn't know where the hot spots though. Maybe in higher populations?

What do these people do to make them more acceptable...unless maybe age?

I don't know why you wouldn't be. Four Million dead people in the world motivates me to want to do something about it.

Luckily, scientists care about reducing deaths too.

Thank you for that. I don't see it's a bad thing in itself. If I live in a highly populated area and/or with older relatives (I live alone) it'll make more sense. Though even my mother doesn't want to take it so it highly depends. She probably keeps up more than I do. I don't believe being unvaccinated means one is misinformed. Least not from an objective view just a logical fallacy.

I actually don't know. Unless it's a bomb threat I've always been a bit detached from thousands of people dying from diseases all around the world on a daily basis. People donate for these reasons but it's never been something I do.

You don't seem to be getting it?

I do 100% but it feels like you guys repeating it, it is less about conversation and more about changing my mind or "educating"me as if decisions about health only depend on general factors and stats from experts who don't know me.

Maybe a reason to justify why they call others ignorant is a good thing?

 

[SkepticThinker]

But this has nothing to do with information. It's not "scripture." People-vax/unvax make the best choice with the info they have.

If you want to blame them for making the wrong decisions that's on you. That's totally different than discrediting their knowledge based on their decision.

I also don't feel it's wise that vaccinated people should rush to be vaccinated with only "cause I may be a potential killer." Do you guys really need death, sacrifice, and dying to make decisions for you and others health?

It works both sides.

I have to ask, do you know how herd immunity works?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

There is little or no information on which side of any town is riskier than another. For that reason alone your argument has no basis in fact.

Everyone is at A risk not the same risk.

Experts know this that's why they look at different factors like age, ethnicity, etc to decent who is at higher risk. High populated areas like new York created vaccine passports while another state with low population wouldn't opt for that.

You keep coming up with made-up rationales for not getting the vaccine. Why not just come out and admit you don't want to get the vaccine because you don't trust science?

Do you believe that each person's risk of getting COVID depends on factors like age, ethnicity, etc?

Experts do.

Then why have you been unable to present any argument based on logic?

That you agree with?
Your logic?

I ran out of one's you'd respect and agree to disagree with.

My observation it seems you're not very tolerant to people you don't agree with.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I have to ask, do you know how herd immunity works?

Yes. I looked up a couple months ago.

 

[SkepticThinker]

True. They could. I wouldn't know where the hot spots though. Maybe in higher populations?

They actually do.
The more the virus travels around from person to person, the more variants are going to pop up.
That's just a fact.
The Delta variant just ravaged India and is now ravaging the US, where vaccination rates have plateaued. And who is getting infected? The unvaccinated.
And eventually, if enough people don't get vaccinated, we might get stuck with a variant that can beat our vaccines.
And then what? Back to square one again? We're stuck with COVID forever? No thank you.

I don't know why you're fixated on this "hot spot" thing. This a global pandemic, and I think we should have all learned by now that you can't hide from COVID.

What do these people do to make them more acceptable...unless maybe age?

Sorry, I don't understand your question.

Thank you for that. I don't see it's a bad thing in itself. If I live in a highly populated area and/or with older relatives (I live alone) it'll make more sense. Though even my mother doesn't want to take it so it highly depends. She probably keeps up more than I do. I don't believe being unvaccinated means one is misinformed. Least not from an objective view just a logical fallacy.

I'll just say that every single unvaccinated person in my life as of today, are all wildly misinformed. One if them is a huge conspiracy theory follower who thinks the New World Order is trying to kill us all with vaccines and 5G.

I actually don't know. Unless it's a bomb threat I've always been a bit detached from thousands of people dying from diseases all around the world on a daily basis. People donate for these reasons but it's never been something I do.

I guess I don't understand why massive worldwide deaths doesn't concern you enough to want to do something to stop it.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that what you said?
I don't get it. And it's actually disconcerting to me.

I do 100% but it feels like you guys repeating it, it is less about conversation and more about changing my mind or "educating"me as if decisions about health only depend on general factors and stats from experts who don't know me.

Maybe a reason to justify why they call others ignorant is a good thing?

It's just that you don't seem to be absorbing some of it because I've seen you repeat yourself as well.

You know, if I'm ignorant about a subject, I'm more than happy to have someone inform or educate me so that I can learn and correct my views so that they better match reality.
Ignorant doesn't mean stupid.