Marriage and sexuality

[madhatter85]

Where did I say that I didn´t think you should be allowed to? That would go against my values... never mistake me getting heated for that I think you should not have the right to say what you say . If you think I am getting heated, that is (I try to be nice).

Yeah, same here, My comment was not primarily directed at you, rather it was mainly directed to the people on this forum that degrade religious beliefs and opinions and claim they cannot be used to debate this subject.

Which is why i have not used a single religious or moral reason for not supporting same sex marriage.

 

[Kerr]

Yeah, same here, My comment was not primarily directed at you, rather it was mainly directed to the people on this forum that degrade religious beliefs and opinions and claim they cannot be used to debate this subject.

Well, you can use it, but the other side probably won´t consider it valid . Just as you don´t think some of our arguments are I guess.

 

[enchanted_one1975]

Yeah, same here, My comment was not primarily directed at you, rather it was mainly directed to the people on this forum that degrade religious beliefs and opinions and claim they cannot be used to debate this subject.

Why should your religious beliefs have any bearing on who I marry or who I sleep with? I am guaranteed freedom of religion by the First Amendment and my religion does not have any bias against same sex relationships.

 

[madhatter85]

Well, you can use it, but the other side probably won´t consider it valid . Just as you don´t think some of our arguments are I guess.

I would frubal you again, but i have to spread the love first.
EDIT: I got to frubal you again, enjoy~

 

[madhatter85]

Why should your religious beliefs have any bearing on who I marry or who I sleep with? I am guaranteed freedom of religion by the First Amendment and my religion does not have any bias against same sex relationships.

Which is why i have not used a single religious or moral reason for not supporting same sex marriage.

 

[enchanted_one1975]

Which is why i have not used a single religious or moral reason for not supporting same sex marriage.

Good then we agree...that previous post made it sound like you thought one's religion should be a valid argument for this topic.

 

[cardero]

Your precious supreme court is comprised of a panel of seven justices. That is so that a majority rule can be derived from their opinions. Even if all seven agree that does not constitute fact.

I seem to be lost...why is survival and existence fundamental? Is it because if there are no people, the employees of the Supreme Court are out of a job?

Signed, Confused

 

[madhatter85]

I seem to be lost...why is survival and existence fundamental? Is it because if there are no people, the employees of the Supreme Court are out of a job?

Signed, Confused

Because there would be nobody to tell what to do!

 

[enchanted_one1975]

I seem to be lost...why is survival and existence fundamental? Is it because if there are no people, the employees of the Supreme Court are out of a job?

Signed, Confused

I am really not sure what you are asking me. My post was intended to show why just because the supreme court rules something it does not magically become fact. Court rulings are comprised of opinions, whether they are the opinion of one judge, a panel of judges, or a jury of peers.

 

[TheKnight]

Hi all.

Since we started to hijack (*cough* understatement *cough*) the thread about homosexuality and choice and got a mod pointing that out, I decided to start a new thread about it.

So, about marriage, should only hetrosexuals be allowed to marry? Should not homosexuals be allowed to?

Does two hetrosexuals who hate each other and plan to sterilize themselves so that they cannot have kids have more right to marry then two homosexuals who actually love each other and plans to adopt a kid?

And what about asexuals?

And what is the purpose of marriage anyway?

I personally hold that it should not matter if you are homosexual, hetrosexual, asexual or whatever, you should be allowed to marry the person you love no matter what sex you or they are of. I also think marriage is about love and maybe making sure you are legally protected, and not about children.

Take care,
Kerr.

I, personally, believe that marriage should be restricted to being between a man and a woman.

If marriage is a religious term, then please strike it from law and give all couplings dealing with legal matters the term "civil union" in order to make it equal and maintain separation of Church and State. I say, however, it is now a secular term that all consenting adults should be able to enjoy.

I wouldn't oppose that.

Marriage is not about our survival, it is about love. Or should be, at last.

Which is extremely insensitive and quite stupid to say to someone who is in love with someone of the same sex.

Does the ability to get married stop two people from loving one another? Let's get it straight, sexuality is about that after which it is named. It is about sex. I have friends that are of the same sex that I love, but I don't want to have sex with them. That is the difference between me and the homosexual.

Socially speaking, the whole debate over homosexuality is not about love. No one has a problem with two people of the same sex loving one another. Fathers love sons, male friends love male friends, daughter love mothers, sons love grandfathers, aunts love nieces, female friends love female friends etc etc etc. The issue is when one decides they want to have sexual relations with a member of the same sex. Religious society is unwilling to support that, and that's what the "gay marriage" issue is about. It's about social validation.

Every person straight or gay has the right to love a member of the opposite sex and have sex with them. Every person straight or gay has the right to love a member of the same sex and have sex with them.

Marriage, is social recognition of a relationship by the bestowing of privileges. Personally, I don't think people should get extra privileges just because they love someone else.

However, if society decides that it wants to limit which relationships is recognizes and which relationships it does not, then that should be honored.

 

[madhatter85]

Good then we agree...that previous post made it sound like you thought one's religion should be a valid argument for this topic.

Oh, no I was bringing up the point that if we are not allowed to cite religious belief, opinions, or values as part of the debate, neither can anyone else use belief, opinion, or values. It would just be hypocritical

 

[cardero]

I am really not sure what you are asking me. My post was intended to show why just because the supreme court rules something it does not magically become fact. Court rulings are comprised of opinions, whether they are the opinion of one judge, a panel of judges, or a jury of peers.

I would agree with this which might be contributing to my confusion.

 

[Venatoris]

Madhatter, You argue that infertility is not a choice, correct? I can name three people, I know personally, who have had vasectomies for the purpose of not having children. They are infertile by choice. Should they be allowed to get married?

 

[madhatter85]

I am really not sure what you are asking me. My post was intended to show why just because the supreme court rules something it does not magically become fact. Court rulings are comprised of opinions, whether they are the opinion of one judge, a panel of judges, or a jury of peers.

Then the same could be said for the supreme court ruling marriage a "right" since it was the exact same supreme court panel that rued marriage fundamental to our very existence and survival.

 

[madhatter85]

Madhatter, You argue that infertility is not a choice, correct? I can name three people, I know personally, who have had vasectomies for the purpose of not having children. They are infertile by choice. Should they be allowed to get married?

It depends on a lot of variables, was it medically necessary? did they already have children?

I think people who make the choice to become infertile because they simply "don't want kids" are selfish and have a total disregard for their own existence and survival.

 

[YamiB.]

There are absolutely no inconsistencies in my reasoning or logic. Everything I have presented is at face value (which is the only way you can interpret Supreme Court rulings on the nature of marriage.)

There have been studies that show differently. you are only looking at one aspect of it.

I never said homosexuals are bad parents in general, I never said they did not have the capacity for parenting. In-fact i think the opposite.

Prove it, provide sources for these studies.

The strongest conclusion that can be drawn from the empirical literature is that the vast majority of studies show that children living with two mothers and children living with a mother and father have the same levels of social competence. A few studies suggest that children with two lesbian mothers may have marginally better social competence than children in traditional nuclear families, even fewer studies show the opposite, and most studies fail to find any differences. The very limited body of research on children with two gay fathers supports this same conclusion.

http://www.samesexmarriage.ca/docs/Justice_Child_Development.pdf

WHEREAS there is no scientific evidence that parenting effectiveness is related to parental sexual orientation: lesbian and gay parents are as likely as heterosexual parents to provide supportive and healthy environments for their children (Patterson, 2000, 2004; Perrin, 2002; Tasker, 1999);

WHEREAS research has shown that the adjustment, development, and psychological well-being of children is unrelated to parental sexual orientation and that the children of lesbian and gay parents are as likely as those of heterosexual parents to flourish (Patterson, 2004; Perrin, 2002; Stacey & Biblarz, 2001);

APA Policy Statement on Sexual Orientation, Parents, & Children

Overall, researchers found no significant differences between the two groups. Teens with two moms, for example, were neither more nor less likely than their peers with two opposite-sex parents to report having been involved in a romantic relationship during the past year or ever having sex. Both groups were generally well-adjusted, with relatively high levels of self-esteem, relatively low levels of anxiety, and good achievement in school.

Teens With Same-Sex Parents Well-Adjusted

Studies from 1981 to 1994, including 260 children reared by either heterosexual mothers or same-sex mothers after divorce, found no differences in intelligence, type or prevalence of psychiatric disorders, self-esteem, well-being, peer relationships, couple relationships, or parental stress.

"Some studies showed that single heterosexual parents' children have more difficulties than children who have parents of the same sex," Perrin says. "They did better in discipline, self-esteem, and had less psychosocial difficulties at home and at school."

Another study of 37 children of 27 divorced lesbian mothers and a similar number of children of heterosexual mothers found no differences in behavior, adjustment, gender identity, and peer relationships.

Kids Of Same-Sex Parents Do Fine - CBS News

“Rarely is there as much consensus in any area of social science as in the case of gay parenting, which is why the American Academy of Pediatrics and all of the major
professional organizations with expertise in child welfare have issued reports and resolutions in support of gay and lesbian parental rights” (cited in Cooper & Cates, 2006, p. 36).

http://www.psychology.org.au/Assets/Files/LGBT-Families-Lit-Review.pdf

The research indicates that parenting practices and children’s outcomes in families parented by lesbian and gay parents are likely to be at least as favourable as those in families of heterosexual parents, despite the reality that considerable legal discrimination and inequity remain significant challenges for these families.

http://www.psychology.org.au/Assets/Files/LGBT-Families-Lit-Review.pdf

There is ample evidence to show that children raised by same-gender parents fare as well as those raised by heterosexual parents. More than 25 years of research have documented that there is no relationship between parents' sexual orientation and any measure of a child's emotional, psychosocial, and behavioral adjustment. These data have demonstrated no risk to children as a result of growing up in a family with 1 or more gay parents.

The Effects of Marriage, Civil Union, and Domestic Partnership Laws on the Health and Well-being of Children -- Pawelski et al. 118 (1): 349 -- Pediatrics

Yet empirical research to date has consistently failed to find linkages between children’s well-being and the sexual orientation of their parents. If gay, lesbian, or bisexual parents were inherently less capable than otherwise comparable heterosexual parents, their children would evidence problems regardless of the type of sample.

http://wedding.thejons.net/homework/optional_readings.pdf

CPA continues to assert its 2003 position that the psychological literature into the psychosocial adjustment and functioning of children fails to demonstrate any significant differences between children raised within families with heterosexual parents and those raised within families with gay and lesbian parents.

http://www.cpa.ca/cpasite/userfiles/Documents/Marriage%20of%20Same-Sex%20Couples%20Position%20Statement%20-%20October%202006%20%281%29.pdf


Also, still waiting for responses to my past questions. I'll reword them since I guess you didn't understand them previously due to your lack of an answer.

1. Is there a reason for marriage besides having children?
If yes, then why should same-sex couples being unable to have children bar them from getting married.
If no, then what purpose to marriages of infertile purpose serve?

2. Is it choice to marry somebody who is infertile?
If yes, then should it be illegal for a fertile person to marry an infertile person? Why or why not?

 

[Venatoris]

It depends on a lot of variables, was it medically necessary? did they already have children?

I think people who make the choice to become infertile because they simply "don't want kids" are selfish and have a total disregard for their own existence and survival.

They were straight, single, and healthy when they had the operation(no kids). Selfish or not, should they be allowed to get married?

 

[Kerr]

It depends on a lot of variables, was it medically necessary? did they already have children?

What if it was not medically needed and they had children?

 

[Kerr]

Does the ability to get married stop two people from loving one another? Let's get it straight, sexuality is about that after which it is named. It is about sex. I have friends that are of the same sex that I love, but I don't want to have sex with them. That is the difference between me and the homosexual.

Socially speaking, the whole debate over homosexuality is not about love. No one has a problem with two people of the same sex loving one another. Fathers love sons, male friends love male friends, daughter love mothers, sons love grandfathers, aunts love nieces, female friends love female friends etc etc etc. The issue is when one decides they want to have sexual relations with a member of the same sex. Religious society is unwilling to support that, and that's what the "gay marriage" issue is about. It's about social validation.

Every person straight or gay has the right to love a member of the opposite sex and have sex with them. Every person straight or gay has the right to love a member of the same sex and have sex with them.

Marriage, is social recognition of a relationship by the bestowing of privileges. Personally, I don't think people should get extra privileges just because they love someone else.

One, we are not talking about extra priviligues. Two, there are many forms of love. I could never love another man the way I would love I wife.

However, if society decides that it wants to limit which relationships is recognizes and which relationships it does not, then that should be honored.

Not really. With some exceptions, society should not care that much. If it does, it needs to be changed.

 

[Kerr]

I must point one thing out. When I think of marriage, I think of a union between two individuals. To put it simple. So when people talk about providing extra priviligues to anyone with homosexual marriage... it is not about anyone gaining extra priviligues, just that anyone should be able to marry the love of their life, even if that person is of the same sex.