Mary as "Mother of God", Accurate or Borderline Blasphemy?

[Shiranui117]

This was your statement before. "Jesus rose in His human body." and repeated again "Jesus was raised in His old human body."
Emphasize the word "HUMAN BODY"

Now, this is your statement today. If you compare your two statements, you would see the inconsistency of your interpretation of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

BEFORE YOU WROTE: "Jesus rose in His human body." and repeated again "Jesus was raised in His old human body."

NOW YOU WROTE: "Yes, Jesus Christ was risen in the same body as He had before, except now His body was glorified and transformed, no longer mortal, but immortal"

Now, tell me who can not understand 1 Corinthians chapter 15?

Was there any changes from the old human body of Christ to the resurrected body of Christ?

Again, this is your statement: "Yes, Jesus Christ was risen in the same body as He had before, except now His body was glorified and transformed, no longer mortal, but immortal,"

EMPHASIZE THE WORDS: "EXCEPT NOW" OR SHOULD WE SAY, "EXCLUDING FROM NOW ON". WHAT ARE WE EXCLUDING FROM NOW ON? THE OLD HUMAN BODY OF CHRIST? YES! IF WE DO, THEN THERE MUST BE CHANGES THAT HAPPENED DURING THE "BEFORE" AND THE "EXCEPT NOW". SO, "BEFORE", CHRIST HAD A HUMAN BODY, "EXCEPT NOW HIS BODY WAS GLORIFIED AND TRANSFORMED" ACCORDING TO YOU.

NOW, MY QUESTION IS, WHEN DID THIS CHANGES HAPPENED, THE "BEFORE" AND THE "EXCEPT NOW"? AT THE RESURRECTION!

SO, HOW CAN YOU EVEN THINK THAT CHRIST RESURRECTED IN HIS OLD BODY?

1: Lay off the caps lock. I can read what you write without it. We have the bold, italicize and underline options for a reason. IDK if you're aware of this, but full caps lock is generally interpreted on internet forums as screaming.

2: There is no contradiction in the two statements I made. They're saying the same thing. Jesus was risen in the same body that He had before, but now it was deified and glorified.

Think of it this way: You take in a car that's rusty, creaky, and doesn't run very well. You wash it, wax it, polish off the rust, put some oil in the engines, and the old car that was once creaky and rusty is now gleaming, shining and smooth-running. It's the same old car; the only difference is that now the old car got a tune-up and was renewed. It's the same thing with Jesus' body, before and after. He still keeps His same human body. It's just that after the Resurrection, His body got a major tune-up to reflect His Divinity, immortality and incorruption.

It will be the same with us. Our bodies go from being the rusty, old car--subject to suffering, disease, corruption, mortality, and sin--to being the shiny new car--transformed by God's grace, renewed, immortal, incorrupt, alive, sinless. It truly is the same old body we had before, but now tuned up and upgraded.

 

[BornAgain]

There isn't a "translation from" the KJV to the NLT. Both of them drew from the Greek. You can't translate something from one language into the same language.

trans·late (trnslt, trnz-, trns-lt, trnz-)
v. trans·lat·ed, trans·lat·ing, trans·lates
v.tr.
1. To render in another language.
2.
a. To put into simpler terms; explain or interpret.
b. To express in different words; paraphrase.

FROM KJV TO NLT IS LIKE:
a. To put into simpler terms; explain or interpret.
b. To express in different words; paraphrase.

 

[BornAgain]

Exodus 25: 18 And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work you shall make them at the two ends of the mercy seat. 19 Make one cherub at one end, and the other cherub at the other end; you shall make the cherubim at the two ends of it of one piece with the mercy seat. 20 And the cherubim shall stretch out their wings above, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and they shall face one another; the faces of the cherubim shall be toward the mercy seat.

God told the Israelites to make a likeness of a thing that is in heaven above. Did God break his own rule here?

We do not worship or serve icons. We only worship and serve God alone. Likewise, the Israelites did not worship the cherubim that God told them to make.

Artists make likenesses of things in heaven and on earth every single day. Are they breaking the Second Commandment? If no, why not?

How could you question the Almighty God that made everything here on earth?
How could you compare your icons, your man made illusion icons, your weeping icons, to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?
How could you blaspheme God?
How could you compare the mercy seat to your pagan rituals?

Num7:89 And when Moses was gone into the tabernacle of the congregation to speak with him, then he heard the voice of one speaking unto him from off the mercy seat that was upon the ark of testimony, from between the two cherubims: and he spake unto him.

 

[Shiranui117]

How could you question the Almighty God that made everything here on earth?

I'm not. Your own position contradicts a commandment that God gave to the Israelites.

How could you compare your icons, your man made illusion icons, your weeping icons, to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

I'm not comparing them to God. I haven't done that anywhere. :areyoucra I've only ever said that God and God alone is to be worshipped. I must have said it at least a half dozen times already. What are you not getting?

How could you blaspheme God?

I'm not blaspheming Him. What are you talking about? :areyoucra

How could you compare the mercy seat to your pagan rituals?

What "pagan rituals"? Do you know the first thing about Orthodox iconography or theology or practice?

Don't try and condemn things that you don't understand. It doesn't look good.

Num7:89 And when Moses was gone into the tabernacle of the congregation to speak with him, then he heard the voice of one speaking unto him from off the mercy seat that was upon the ark of testimony, from between the two cherubims: and he spake unto him.

God seemed to be quite happy with those graven images that He told the Israelites to make.

trans·late (trnslt, trnz-, trns-lt, trnz-)
v. trans·lat·ed, trans·lat·ing, trans·lates
v.tr.
1. To render in another language.
2.
a. To put into simpler terms; explain or interpret.
b. To express in different words; paraphrase.

FROM KJV TO NLT IS LIKE:
a. To put into simpler terms; explain or interpret.
b. To express in different words; paraphrase.

Looks like you learn something new every day.

 

[BornAgain]

1: Lay off the caps lock. I can read what you write without it. We have the bold, italicize and underline options for a reason. IDK if you're aware of this, but full caps lock is generally interpreted on internet forums as screaming.

2: There is no contradiction in the two statements I made. They're saying the same thing. Jesus was risen in the same body that He had before, but now it was deified and glorified.

Think of it this way: You take in a car that's rusty, creaky, and doesn't run very well. You wash it, wax it, polish off the rust, put some oil in the engines, and the old car that was once creaky and rusty is now gleaming, shining and smooth-running. It's the same old car; the only difference is that now the old car got a tune-up and was renewed. It's the same thing with Jesus' body, before and after. He still keeps His same human body. It's just that after the Resurrection, His body got a major tune-up to reflect His Divinity, immortality and incorruption.

It will be the same with us. Our bodies go from being the rusty, old car--subject to suffering, disease, corruption, mortality, and sin--to being the shiny new car--transformed by God's grace, renewed, immortal, incorrupt, alive, sinless. It truly is the same old body we had before, but now tuned up and upgraded.

Hairetikon anthropon meta mian kai deuteran nouthesian paraitou

 

[4consideration]

Hairetikon anthropon meta mian kai deuteran nouthesian paraitou

1. Would you please translate that into English, so that we all can see what it means?

2. Since that is your only response to his post, it appears to me that you are directing that to him or about him, personally. If that is incorrect, please respond as to what your meaning for it actually was.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

1. Would you please translate that into English, so that we all can see what it means?

2. Since that is your only response to his post, it appears to me that you are directing that to him or about him, personally. If that is incorrect, please respond as to what your meaning for it actually was.

My google search reveals a Greek passage from Titus 3:9-11. We'll see if there is a response to clarify, however, since I could be wrong.

 

[4consideration]

My google search reveals a Greek passage from Titus 3:9-11. We'll see if there is a response to clarify, however, since I could be wrong.

I think you and I are on the same page.

 

[John Martin]

We have to understand this attribute given to Mary in different levels.
God is the creator and Mary is a creature. If she is the mother of God in the literal sense then she must be before God. If She is before God then she must be higher than God and God will a lesser God. So we cannot think of Mary being the mother of God in this sense.
In the matriarchal society ultimately reality was conceived as feminine, as mother Goddess. Creation is seen her son. She becomes mother of creation. She is also called virgin mother, because by creating this creation she does not lose her freedom,her in dependency and integrity. Creation does not add anything to her and does not take away anything. She remains a virgin and a mother at the same time.
Virginity of Mary: Virginity is not limited to the physical level but also spiritual. Spiritually a virgin is one who discontinues the God of history and gives birth to the God of eternity, I am who I am. The child born of this virgin will not be identified with the past but will be called 'the Son of God'. The Son of God is a metaphorical expression. The son of God is one who breaks down the walls of division and creates one God, one creation and one humanity.
All children come from God but we appropriate to us and claim that they are our children. A spiritual virgin is one who says' my children are not my children but God's children. My life is not my life but God's life.My actions are not my actions but God's actions. Joseph and Mary knelt down before the child and said, this child is not our child but God's child,we are only foster parents. They saw divine manifestation in that Child. In that sense we can say that Mary is the mother of God's manifestation (symbolically son of God) in time and space. This is not limited to Mary alone. Every parent is called virgin mother of God. How can they? It is simple.if they kneel down at the birth of their child and say, this child is not our child but God's child, then they become virgin parents of God. Children are not only physical but also spiritual. Jesus said that the actions that I do are not my own but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Jesus Christ, as a human being, was the virgin mother of God, because all his actions are manifestations of God.
In heaven there were arguments why only Mary was called virgin mother. Angel Gabriel told them this story.
When God created human beings he gave each one a note book and asked them to write in it all the things they have done. When they returned into the presence of God they were asked to give their notebooks. The angels read their good actions and bad actions. When Mary' turn came she gave the book to an angel. When the angel opened the book it was empty. All those who were present there were surprised. The angel asked Mary her book is empty. Mary replied: O my Lord, God did not create us to act but God created us to allow God to act in us. I just allowed God to act in me. If I say I have done something it must be sin. There was pin drop silence there.
Then the angel Gabriel said those who were arguing viriginity of Mary: do you see why Mary is called virgin mother of God?
Everyone is called a virgin mother of God.

 

[Shiranui117]

My google search reveals a Greek passage from Titus 3:9-11. We'll see if there is a response to clarify, however, since I could be wrong.

Thank you kindly for this bit of info; I don't have a way to transliterate that bit into the Greek alphabet, so I don't think I would have been able to find it without your help.

Titus 3:9-11
9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. 10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.

I do find it a little sad that that's all he put down, though; he didn't even attempt to make a counterargument. :/

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Thank you kindly for this bit of info; I don't have a way to transliterate that bit into the Greek alphabet, so I don't think I would have been able to find it without your help.

You're welcome. Again, though, I could be wrong. We'll see if he responds to explain further.

Titus 3:9-11
9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. 10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.

I do find it a little sad that that's all he put down, though; he didn't even attempt to make a counterargument. :/

Not only is it in a foreign language, but forum etiquette frowns upon citing only religious doctrine as a response, if that is indeed what was posted. There ought to be commentary to create a conversation between two or more people.

 

[BornAgain]

There isn't a "translation from" the KJV to the NLT. Both of them drew from the Greek. You can't translate something from one language into the same language.

Tit3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
Hairetikon anthropon meta mian kai deuteran nouthesian paraitou.

my apology guys. I thought Shiranui117 understood Koine Greek.

 

[BornAgain]

We have to understand this attribute given to Mary in different levels.

God is the creator and Mary is a creature.
If she is the mother of God in the literal sense then she must be before God.
If She is before God then she must be higher than God and God will a lesser God.
So we cannot think of Mary being the mother of God in this sense.

So, this is your “metaphorical expression” -if you allow me to borrow your wordings- and not the literal expression of Mary?

In the matriarchal society ultimately reality was conceived as feminine, as mother Goddess. Creation is seen her son. She becomes mother of creation.

You meant “matriarchal religion”? So, why pretend to be a man if you are a woman?

So, here you are saying that any mother becomes a creator by giving birth, and therefore “as mother goddess,” or, “she becomes mother of creation.”?

*edit*

 

[Shiranui117]

Tit3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
Hairetikon anthropon meta mian kai deuteran nouthesian paraitou.

my apology guys. I thought Shiranui117 understood Koine Greek.

Well, looks like Mystic Sang'ha was right.

I find it unfortunate that you've chosen not to respond further to my posts and point out where you agree or disagree. I respect your decision to do so, but I would have rather reached a common understanding with you. Sadly, however, you seem to not be interested in having a nice conversation or reaching a mutual agreement, or at least appreciation, for each other's views.

Good day to you and God bless. May He Who broke bread with the Apostles, and was betrayed by Judas, bless and keep you.

 

[kiwimac]

The Greek term is Theotokos which means 'God-bearer.'

 

[John Martin]

God is the creator and Mary is a creature.
If she is the mother of God in the literal sense then she must be before God.
If she is before God then she must be higher than God and God will a lesser God.
So we cannot think of Mary being the mother of God in this sense.
So, this is your “metaphorical expression” -if you allow me to borrow your wordings- and not the literal expression of Mary?


Dear Born Again,

The expressions like Father to God, Son of God to Jesus and the Mother of God to Mary have to be taken metaphorically and not literally. Language is the invention of the human mind. We use our human language as metaphors to express our relationship with God. The problem comes only when we take them literally and metaphysically.
For example the expression ‘Father’ to God can mean many things: the source of creation, the foundation of creation, the originator of creation, the intimate relationship that exists between a human soul and God.
The expression ‘the Son of God’ to Jesus can mean: universal consciousness, which is united with the whole of humanity and of creation, which speaks to God in the name of creation and of humanity, which speaks to humanity in the name of God. The Son of God is the mediator between God and creation. The Son of God is like the trunk of tree which at one side holds the leaves and the branches and another side connected to the roots, the divine. The Son of God lives for the welfare of the whole of humanity and creation. Another name to the Son of God can be universal consciousness. Any person who enters into the universal consciousness can experience being the Son of God.
When we use the expression Mother of God to Mary, we can say it is the state of the pure soul, like pure mirror which reflects the divine. If we use the symbol of Sun to God, our human soul is like Moon. The Sun reflects in the Moon. We can say that the Moon is the mother of the Sun because it gives the possibility for the reflection of the Sun. We cannot say that the Moon is the Mother of the Sun. Then the Moon must be before the Sun. It is impossible and absurd. Every human soul has the potential to purify itself and become a perfect mirror where God reflects. This soul can say I gave birth to God in my soul and I am the mother of God.
Yes, I look at the expression Mother of God as a metaphor which expresses a deep profound truth. We must look for the deeper truth and not tied down by the words


As per the second portion you have completed misunderstood my statements and there is no point of arguing about it. The way you understand it is not the way I intend it. What I wanted to tell was that the concept of Virgin Mother of God existed before Christianity, in the matriarchal religions, where they worshiped Ultimate Reality as Mother Goddess.


Spiritually a virgin is one who discontinues the God of history and gives birth to the God of eternity, I am who I am.
This is an absolute blasphemy. “A virgin is one who discontinues the God of history and gives birth to the God of eternity, I am who I am.” Only an evil person would say something like this.

Is it not the angel told Mary: The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will cover you with its shadow and the child will be called Son of God’? (Lk.1.35). His birth is not from the continuity of the past. It is braking from the past and initiating new human beings. Christ was not called son of Abraham or son of Joseph but Son of God. Jesus said ‘before Abraham was I am’. St. John says, ‘In the beginning was the word, the word was with God and the word was God. (Jn.1.1.)
The Word became flesh, he lived among us, and we saw his glory that he has from the Father, as only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth. (Jn. 1.14).
If it is not the call of Mary to initiate a new human consciousness, the consciousness of the Son of God, why God sent an angel to her? She was entrusted with a difficult task in a society that was patriarchal. According to your understanding you may consider my statement evil. I respect your sentiments and reflect deeply on what I have said. If I find it is not right, then I will change my views. These views are not written on the tablets of stone. They are only opinions and suggestions, open to discussion and correction. The forum is there for this purpose. I do appreciate your frankness and thank you so much again and may God bless you.

 

[Me Myself]

No, because the persons of the Trinity are distinct. The Father is not the Son -- the Son is not the Father. Mary was mother of the Son -- not the Father.

So it is false that God impregnated Mary who gave birth to God?

God impregnated his mother.