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Mary mother of God

Unification

Unification

Well-Known Member
katiemygirl said:
I ask because catholics insist that they don't worship Mary. They instead claim they venerate her. And now, you have pretty much said the same thing.

Bowing before and kissing statues is worship. We don't get to define Bible words like worship to fit our theology. We let the Bible itself define what worship is. The RCC is very good about redefining Bible words in order to make them fit their theology. Mediator is a good example. Mary has been given the title co-mediator. Yet the Bible says there is ONE mediator between mankind and God, and it is Christ Jesus.

In the Hebrew-Chaldee lexicon, the predominant Hebrew word for "worship" (shachah) means: "to bow oneself down, Isa. 51:23....to sink down, to be depressed....to prostrate oneself before any one out of honour....Those who used this mode of salutation fell on their knees and touched the ground with the forehead...." (Gesenius' Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament Scriptures, pp. 813-814). In their Greek-English lexicon, Bauer, Arndt,

The predominant Greek word for "worship" (proskuneo), like the Hebrew, was "used to designate the custom of prostrating oneself before a person and kissing his feet, the hem of his garment, the ground, etc.; the Persians did this in the presence of their deified king, and the Greeks before a divinity ... (fall down and) worship, do obeisance to, prostrate oneself before, do reverence to, welcome respectfully...." (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, pp. 716-717).

There are numerous examples from both the Old and New Testaments of worship being given God, and they follow the definitions above in both the Hebrew and Greek lexicons.

Worship of Mary can be denied, and new definitions of worship can be given by men in order to fit their doctrines, but you can NEVER change the Bible's definition of worship, and the Bible, which is the inspired word of God, has the final say.
Click to expand...


Wouldn't that essentially make you be bowing down to a book with worship? May I ask why the bible is the final say for you?
 
Domenic

Domenic

Active Member
COLOSSIANS 1:15

Jesus is a god...he is not God the Father. God was never born...Jesus was the first born of all creation.

New International Version
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
New Living Translation
Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,
English Standard Version
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
New American Standard Bible
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
King James Bible
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Holman Christian Standard Bible
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. International Standard Version
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
NET Bible
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation, Aramaic Bible in Plain English
He who is the image of The Unseen God and is The Firstborn of all creation.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Jubilee Bible 2000
who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature;
King James 2000 Bible
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation:
American King James Version
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
American Standard Version
who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;
Douay-Rheims Bible
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Darby Bible Translation
who is image of the invisible God, firstborn of all creation;
English Revised Version
who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;
Webster's Bible Translation
Who is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of every creature:
Weymouth New Testament
Christ is the visible representation of the invisible God, the Firstborn and Lord of all creation.
World English Bible
who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Young's Literal Translation
who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,
 
lovemuffin

lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
Katie: I think you're confusing the fact that the words translated "worship" have shades of meaning, and can mean both worship in the sense of that which is offered to a god as well as just acts of obeisance in general. The word literally refers to the physical act, but that physical act doesn't have exactly the same meaning in every context. I'm less familiar with the hebrew, but this is certainly the case with προσκυνέω.
 
Domenic

Domenic

Active Member
Wharton said:
Mary is not worshipped.
Click to expand...

I was raised a Catholic. Catholics pray to Mary. Jesus said to pray to the Father through him. When a person prays to Mary, is that like trying to reach God via the back door? Praying to Mary is putting Jesus aside.
I know catholics ask things of Mary...that is praying to her. Tell me, "When you talk to Mary, are you on your knees, or feet?
An angel appeared to Paul(when he was Saul) and Paul fell to his knees. The angels said, "Don't do that. I am a servant the same as you."
God only hears your prayer if you go through Jesus. Any other way is a DEAD END.
 
W

Wharton

Active Member
katiemygirl said:
I ask because catholics insist that they don't worship Mary. They instead claim they venerate her. And now, you have pretty much said the same thing.

Bowing before and kissing statues is worship. We don't get to define Bible words like worship to fit our theology. We let the Bible itself define what worship is. The RCC is very good about redefining Bible words in order to make them fit their theology. Mediator is a good example. Mary has been given the title co-mediator. Yet the Bible says there is ONE mediator between mankind and God, and it is Christ Jesus.

In the Hebrew-Chaldee lexicon, the predominant Hebrew word for "worship" (shachah) means: "to bow oneself down, Isa. 51:23....to sink down, to be depressed....to prostrate oneself before any one out of honour....Those who used this mode of salutation fell on their knees and touched the ground with the forehead...." (Gesenius' Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament Scriptures, pp. 813-814). In their Greek-English lexicon, Bauer, Arndt,

The predominant Greek word for "worship" (proskuneo), like the Hebrew, was "used to designate the custom of prostrating oneself before a person and kissing his feet, the hem of his garment, the ground, etc.; the Persians did this in the presence of their deified king, and the Greeks before a divinity ... (fall down and) worship, do obeisance to, prostrate oneself before, do reverence to, welcome respectfully...." (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, pp. 716-717).

There are numerous examples from both the Old and New Testaments of worship being given God, and they follow the definitions above in both the Hebrew and Greek lexicons.

Worship of Mary can be denied, and new definitions of worship can be given by men in order to fit their doctrines, but you can NEVER change the Bible's definition of worship, and the Bible, which is the inspired word of God, has the final say.
Click to expand...
Let's see if we can simplify this. Worship is something that is REQUIRED in the Catholic Church. No Catholic is required to have a statue of Mary. No Catholic is required to say the rosary. No Catholic is required to bow before any statue in Church. No Catholic is required to say a novena, stations of the cross, etc.

Any reference to Mary or any other saint is to "Pray for us." Any reference to the members of the Trinity is "Have mercy on us." It's all there, out in the open.

Mary's 'job ' was to bring forth Jesus. She did that physically and with her words. Her only words in the bible are: Do whatever he (Jesus) tells you.
 
W

Wharton

Active Member
Domenic said:
I was raised a Catholic. Catholics pray to Mary. Jesus said to pray to the Father through him. When a person prays to Mary, is that like trying to reach God via the back door? Praying to Mary is putting Jesus aside.
I know catholics ask things of Mary...that is praying to her. Tell me, "When you talk to Mary, are you on your knees, or feet?
An angel appeared to Paul(when he was Saul) and Paul fell to his knees. The angels said, "Don't do that. I am a servant the same as you."
God only hears your prayer if you go through Jesus. Any other way is a DEAD END.
Click to expand...
If you were raised Catholic then you know about the communion of saints. You professed that belief every time you said the Apostles Creed. Look it up. Your answer is there.
 
Unification

Unification

Well-Known Member
The silliest thing ever is that the body of Joseph is being praised, in the image of a statue that is named Mary, and called the mother of Jesus/God. How much more deceitful imaginative can mankind's mind of creativity be?
 
K

katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
Domenic said:
COLOSSIANS 1:15

Jesus is a god...he is not God the Father. God was never born...Jesus was the first born of all creation.

New International Version
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
New Living Translation
Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,
English Standard Version
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
New American Standard Bible
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
King James Bible
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Holman Christian Standard Bible
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. International Standard Version
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
NET Bible
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation, Aramaic Bible in Plain English
He who is the image of The Unseen God and is The Firstborn of all creation.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Jubilee Bible 2000
who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature;
King James 2000 Bible
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation:
American King James Version
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
American Standard Version
who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;
Douay-Rheims Bible
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Darby Bible Translation
who is image of the invisible God, firstborn of all creation;
English Revised Version
who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;
Webster's Bible Translation
Who is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of every creature:
Weymouth New Testament
Christ is the visible representation of the invisible God, the Firstborn and Lord of all creation.
World English Bible
who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Young's Literal Translation
who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,
Click to expand...
Which one of these verses says Jesus was created?

It seems you have run with the word "firstborn," desperate to believe Jesus was created, and completely ignore the rest of the Bible. It's a shame you pull a verse out of context to support a false teaching. Try reading in context for once.

Look at the passage where Jesus is called the first-born.

Colossians 1:15-21
“And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created by Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the first-born from the dead; so that He Himself might come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.”

Did you catch that? First born from the dead!!!

Nah! I doubt it. You won't see it because you don't want to.

First born does not mean created. Jesus is the creator, not created. Jesus is before all things, but I doubt you saw that either. :(
 
viole

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
katiemygirl said:
*edited*
Click to expand...

I don't care what the Bible says. Obviously. But I can draw logical conclusions from what people believe it says.

Question:

1) is Jesus God? Let us assume yes
2) is Mary the mother of Jesus? Let us assume yes

Now, if you insist on denying that Mary is not the mother of God, from those premises, if both true, then you have only three possibilities:

1) the Bible is logically incoherent
2) Its readers are logically incoherent
3) one, or both, of the two premises are invalid

Your call, really.

Ciao

- viole
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Domenic

Domenic

Active Member
Wharton said:
If you were raised Catholic then you know about the communion of saints. You professed that belief every time you said the Apostles Creed. Look it up. Your answer is there.
Click to expand...

NEWS FLASH:

Most of the Catholic Bible is made up by the Catholic church. If there are no scrolls to match what is in your Bible, it is not from God.
My family has a Catholic Bible from 1953...matched with the present Catholic bible, many scriptures have been given different numbers, or replaced with what the church wanted them to say.
The Bible was taken from the scrolls. When they found the Dead Sea Scrolls They matched the scrolls the Bible was taken from...if your Bible does not match the scrolls, throw it away, it is not from God.
 
W

Wharton

Active Member
katiemygirl said:
*edited*
Click to expand...
Bible=Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth.

With the emphasis on Basic. Even Jesus knew that-The scribes and the Pharisees sit on the seat of Moses. Do as they tell you but not as they do. You can't ignore Tradition. It assembled the bible.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
W

Wharton

Active Member
Domenic said:
NEWS FLASH:

Most of the Catholic Bible is made up by the Catholic church. If there are no scrolls to match what is in your Bible, it is not from God.
My family has a Catholic Bible from 1953...matched with the present Catholic bible, many scriptures have been given different numbers, or replaced with what the church wanted them to say.
The Bible was taken from the scrolls. When they found the Dead Sea Scrolls They matched the scrolls the Bible was taken from...if your Bible does not match the scrolls, throw it away, it is not from God.
Click to expand...
The Dead Sea scrolls are from God? You know that? Which bibles match the Dead Sea scrolls?
 
K

katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
Wharton said:
Let's see if we can simplify this. Worship is something that is REQUIRED in the Catholic Church. No Catholic is required to have a statue of Mary. No Catholic is required to say the rosary. No Catholic is required to bow before any statue in Church. No Catholic is required to say a novena, stations of the cross, etc.

Any reference to Mary or any other saint is to "Pray for us." Any reference to the members of the Trinity is "Have mercy on us." It's all there, out in the open.

Mary's 'job ' was to bring forth Jesus. She did that physically and with her words. Her only words in the bible are: Do whatever he (Jesus) tells you.
Click to expand...

Required? You say they're not, but all practicing catholics say the rosary and worship Mary. When you pray to or petition Mary, you are worshiping her. Prayer is worship.

Where in the Bible is Mary called Mother of God? Where in the Bible are their statues of Mary or saints? Where in the Bible are Novenas to Mary? Where in the Bible are you told to pray the rosary?

The catholic religion is about Mary. Catholics have made Mary into a goddess. Look at the ratio of Hail Mary's there are to the Lord's prayer (10-1). How sad is that! Not to mention idolatrous! What a slap in the face to our Savior who gave His life in the most cruel way so that we may have life.
 
K

katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
viole said:
Obviously ;)

Ciao

- viole
Click to expand...
I feel very sorry for you. You really need to think long and hard about your view of God's word. There is nothing further I can say to you that would matter, so I'll just shake the dust off my feet and move on. I pray to our Father in heaven that you open your heart before it is ever too late. I wish you the best.
 
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