Mary mother of God

[chlotilde]

I

Methinks you missed the point. <snip>

It made me sick to my stomach.

Was your point to discuss what tradition means...I thought I'd show you an example of what I mean by Tradition.

I am sorry it made you feel sick.
You know how on the cross Jesus says..."My God, My God Why have you forsaken me." And everyone knows he is pointing to a passage in Psalms. Who knows, maybe some standing around that day continued saying that particular prayer. Well, when the Pope was shot and said those words, I knew he was pointing to Luke 1:28.

 

[lovemuffin]

But when a catholic prostrates themselves, bows down before, or kisses a statue of Mary, there is no question that it is Mary they are worshiping

I'm not sure, but did you miss this post?

 

[chlotilde]

The Scripture says the FAITH was delivered once for all. It's not talking about delivering Jesus. The faith refers to Christian doctrine. It was delivered once for all.

Interesting thought, can't say I thought of the word faith in that way . Too many Christians who speak their own language, in that what a word means to you is different than what a word means to me (cuz, I am still hung up on some of things you have said about the Trinity and who is Jesus because your answers to my questions were never yes or no, and I thought I was giving you pretty easy yes or no questions, funny how that works, and because you didn't answer them yes or no means whatever is in your mind is different than what is in my mind)...we just may be doomed to never quite understand what the other is thinking <insert that laughing at myself that I wish burned more calories>.

 

[chlotilde]

. Too many Christians who speak their own language

funny story here...but years ago when I first heard someone use the words "personal Lord and Savior"...I thought what the heck, he doesn't share, he came for you only? But I made the effort to understand what they meant.

 

[kepha31]

I didn't give any interpretations. I just posted verses and you found fault with each one. It's God's words you rejected, not mine. It's impossible to misinterpret "do not add or take away from my words."

But you have. Rev. 22:18-19 "don't add to the prophecies in this book." This commandment only refers to the book of Revelation, not the entire Bible which came 300 years later. You also interpret "do not go beyond what is written" to mean authority is up for grabs because what "is written" has nothing to do with the unifying authority of the Church, which is what Paul was talking about in the first place. Maybe you have an example of how sola scriptura has unified any two denominations. "do not go beyond what is written" does not support sola scriptura. Paul does not say, "don't go beyond your opinion of what is written."

2 Peter 1:20 - interpreting Scripture is not a matter of one's own private interpretation. Therefore, it must be a matter of "public" interpretation of the Church. The Divine Word needs a Divine Interpreter. Private judgment leads to divisions, and this is why there are 30,000 different Protestant denominations.

2 Peter 3:15-16 - Peter says Paul's letters are inspired, but not all his letters are in the New Testament canon. See, for example, 1 Cor. 5:9-10; Col. 4:16. Also, Peter's use of the word "ignorant" means unschooled, which presupposes the requirement of oral apostolic instruction that comes from the Church.

2 Peter 3:16 - the Scriptures are difficult to understand and can be distorted by the ignorant to their destruction. God did not guarantee the Holy Spirit would lead each of us to infallibly interpret the Scriptures. But this is what Protestants must argue in order to support their doctrine of sola Scriptura. History and countless divisions in Protestantism disprove it.​

Most of the NT was written and being copied and circulated to the churches between the late 40's A.D. to 70 A.D. Prior to anything being written, the apostles were giving the instructions they had received from Jesus orally. And they had the entire OT translated into Greek during that time. And at least two times in the OT, God said "Do not add or take away from my words.

Where in the OT does God say, Do not add or take away from my written words alone?

Paul wrote 1 Corinthians in about A.D. 55 So his admonition would have included Matthew, Mark, Galatians, James, 1 and 2 Thessalonians and 1 Corinthians. I believe his warning would have included any future inspired writings. Why wouldn't it?

In order for non-Catholics to exercise the principles of sola Scriptura they first have to accept the antecedent premise of what books constitute Scripture - in particular, the New Testament books. This is not as simple as it may seem at first, accustomed as we are to accepting without question the New Testament as we have it today. Although indeed there was, roughly speaking, a broad consensus in the early Church as to what books were scriptural, there still existed enough divergence of opinion to reasonably cast doubt on the Protestant concepts of the Bible's self-authenticating nature, and the self-interpreting maxim of perspicuity. The following overview of the history of acceptance of biblical books (and also non-biblical ones as Scripture) will help the reader to avoid over-generalizing or over-simplifying the complicated historical process by which we obtained our present Bible.
Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: The New Testament Canon
All sources for the timeline are Protestant.

No one today is inspired. No one has been since the last apostle died. The last book of the New Testament, which was written by inspiration is Revelation.

Agreed. Public revelation is binding on all Christians, but private revelation is binding only on those who receive it. The Catholic Church teaches that public revelation was completed, and therefore was concluded, with the death of the last apostle (Vatican II, Dei Verbum 4), but private revelation has continued.

"Throughout the ages, there have been so-called ‘private’ revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium[collective sense of the faithful] knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church. Christian faith cannot accept ‘revelations’ that claim to surpass or correct the revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such ‘revelations’" (Catechism of the Catholic Church 67).

Some people tend to go to one extreme or the other on private revelation; they either completely reject the concept or they consider private revelation their chief rule of faith. The original sixteenth century Protestant Reformers denied all private revelation—they had to, for all the miracles that had occurred and all the private revelations that had been received over the previous fifteen hundred years had confirmed rather than attacked the Catholic faith. The original Reformers’ actions were in direct disobedience to the binding command of the New Testament: "Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophetic utterances. Test everything; retain what is good" (1 Thess. 5:19–21).

The Reformers’ eradication of all new revelation led people to forget the distinction between public and private revelation. Thus when people appeared claiming to have new revleation, Protestants were left vulnerable to thinking any new revelations would be binding on all Christians. In the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, religious organizations which claim such new revelations have evolved in Protestant circles; for example, the Irvingites, the Mormons, the Seventh-day Adventists, and the current "Word Faith" or "Prosperity Gospel" movement.

When the Pentecostal movement started in 1900, it faced the problem of explaining why private revelations had ceased for so many centuries, as the original Protestant Reformers claimed, only to begin again during this century. The correct answer, as the following passages from the early Church Fathers show, is that private revelation never did stop...​

Private Revelation | Catholic Answers

So it's okay to add and take away from all other books of the Bible? God's word was divided into books by men. God's word is God's word. Period.

Don't forget the "added" chapter and verse numbers.

 

[Nada]

Interesting post. This is just my observation, but there were about 120 at Pentacost in the book of Acts. 12 X 10, symbolic of the whole Church in every age, following your number meanings. It's also interesting that of all the names listed, Mary is the only woman mentioned by name among all the others.

Acts 1:12 they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey away. 13 the upper room, where they were staying, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot and Judas the son of James. 14 with one accord were devoting themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers. 15 In those days Peter stood up among jthe brothers (the company of persons was in all about 120) and said..."

HEY! How did she get in there? It must be a Jesuit conspiracy

I do not understand your question."How did she get in there?"

 

[Wharton]

The RCC, like much of the Protestant world has created two classes of Christians: a “spiritually superior class” of Christians known as “clergy or priests” and an inferior class known as “laity.” This is not Biblical. While believers have different callings and gifts they are all servants of the Lord. In the New Testament church, all Christians are equal (Galatians 3:27). There is no separation of priests and laity. All Christians are priests. Under the Old Law, there was a formal, ordained priesthood, but that priesthood was abolished by Jesus when HE died on the cross.

All Catholics are baptized priest, prophet and king. I'm sure she knows that.

A priest offers sacrifice. It is expressed at Mass very clearly after the priest has washed his hands, he extends his hands to the people and says: "Pray, brethren, that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God, the Almighty Father". To which the people respond: "May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands for the praise and glory of His name, for our good and the good of all His Church."

The existence of the ordained clergy is to ensure that the sacraments are valid and licit.

 

[kjv4me2you]

somebody better tell that to the Angels in Heaven then...cuz they apparently say the same words over and over.
Rev. 4:8 Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying: "'Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty,' who was, and is, and is to come."

So the angels are not praying to God because He is with them and they are saying the same thing day and night without being repetitive...gotcha.

They are not angels in Rev 4:8 they are the four beasts and 24 elders-Rev 4:10 and they are not praying rather they are worshipping YHWH Elohim Shaddai the One and Only God. No angel or angels pray to YHWH-YaH but they do always advise the born again spirit man to worship YHWH-YaH.

(Rev 4:8 KJV) And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, YHWH-YaH Elohim Shaddai, which was, and is, and is to come

The four beasts or the four quickened males who are representative males who once were dead but are quickened.

Many fail to see that the Lamb slain was OF the four beasts AND IN THE MIDST OF THE ELDERS worshipping YHWH-YaH Elohim Shaddai.

(Rev 5:6 KJV) And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

(Rev 19:1 KJV) And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

(Rev 19:2 KJV) For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

(Rev 19:3 KJV) And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

(Rev 19:4 KJV) And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

(Rev 19:5 KJV) And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

(Rev 19:6 KJV) And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

(Rev 19:7 KJV) Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

(Rev 19:8 KJV) And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

(Rev 19:9 KJV) And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

(Rev 19:10 KJV) And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he ( the angel) said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

(Rev 22:8 KJV) And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things.

(Rev 22:9 KJV) Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Further more if Jesus is YHWH-YaH-God then YHWH-YaH God worshipped Himself which is absurd. Praying to oneself and praising and worshipping self is exactly what lucifer wanted for himself.

(Isa 14:12 KJV) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

(Isa 14:13 KJV) For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

(Isa 14:14 KJV) I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

(Isa 14:15 KJV) Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

(Luke 10:21 KJV) In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

Rejoicing in spirit is worshipping God a Spirit and as we read in Rev 4:8, again we see Jesus the Lamb slain in the midst of those four quickened males worshipping God for the first and only time in scripture as YHWH ELOHIM SHADDAI.

The words pray, prayer and praying do not appear in the Book of revelation which reveals many things about what was happening in the heaven of YaH.

willyah

 

[katiemygirl]

"kepha31, post: 4178632, member: 30332"]But you have. Rev. 22:18-19 "don't add to the prophecies in this book." This commandment only refers to the book of Revelation, not the entire Bible which came 300 years later.

I addressed this already. You aren't reading my posts. It's obvious, and what's really insulting is that your responses are cut and paste from catholic websites. I spent between 2 and 3 hours responding to your post, and you answer me with someone else's words.

I would very much like to dialogue with a catholic person who can think for themselves and not use catholic websites.

 

[kjv4me2you]

Thanks.

Your merely explaining what holy scripture means to you. Merely your opinion as do all believers do except for the roman catholic who's meaning comes from other men..

Let God be true and every man a liar.

Willyah

 

[kjv4me2you]

I addressed this already. You aren't reading my posts. It's obvious, and what's really insulting is that your responses are cut and paste from catholic websites. I spent between 2 and 3 hours responding to your post, and you answer me with someone else's words.

I would very much like to dialogue with a catholic person who can think for themselves and not use catholic websites.

As good catholics they cannot speak for themselves regarding their religious thoughts unless they walk lockstep with rcc teaching. I put this as bluntly yet truthfully as possible as any good roman catholic would agree.

willyah

 

[katiemygirl]

All Catholics are baptized priest, prophet and king. I'm sure she knows that.

A priest offers sacrifice. It is expressed at Mass very clearly after the priest has washed his hands, he extends his hands to the people and says: "Pray, brethren, that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God, the Almighty Father". To which the people respond: "May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands for the praise and glory of His name, for our good and the good of all His Church."

The existence of the ordained clergy is to ensure that the sacraments are valid and licit.

Wharton, I would very much like to discuss this topic with you, but if you are going to cut and paste from catholic websites, I'm not interested. I put a lot of effort into my posts. If I copy something, I generally tell people up front that the writing is not mine. I'd appreciate reciprocation from the person I am conversing with. I don't mind some copy and paste, but when the whole response is from catholic websites, I have no desire to read it. If there is something I want to read from the catechism, I can do that on my own. I would prefer you think for yourself. If you're not willing to do that, I'll try and find a catholic person who is.

In your own words, tell me what you know (without going to any catholic website) about the Levitical priesthood of the Old Testament. How did they come about? What was their role? If you don't know anything about it, then please be honest and say so.

 

[katiemygirl]

As good catholics they cannot speak for themselves regarding their religious thoughts unless they walk lockstep with rcc teaching. I put this as bluntly yet truthfully as possible as any good roman catholic would agree.

willyah

Jehovah Witnesses are the same. They go to Watchtower literature for their answers. They do not think independently, and that is too bad. Nothing is more satisfying than discovering God's truth on your own.

 

[katiemygirl]

Your merely explaining what holy scripture means to you. Merely your opinion as do all believers do except for the roman catholic who's meaning comes from other men..

Let God be true and every man a liar.

Willyah

The JW's are much worse! I find that most catholic people are willing to at least consider other viewpoints. JW's won't look at anything outside of Watchtower. Many catholics have left catholicism because they had open hearts and were truly seeking God.

 

[kjv4me2you]

Which entails that Jesus is not the Son. Correct?

Ciao

- viole

CORRECT!

KJV replies:
Might I add ; Indeed Elohim is a title used by the many religions of the Gentile nations, but the nation Israel is the only firstborn earthly Son of YHWH-YaH ( Exo 4:22) and they used the titles Father and God, as did Jesus a Jew out of the tribe of Juda.

(John 20:17 KJV) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

(2 Cor 11:31 KJV) The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

(Eph 1:3 KJV) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

(1 Pet 1:3 KJV) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Israel as a nation was the firstborn Son of YHWH-God and that firstborn Son was earthy. It would be through Israel the firstborn Son of YHWH-YaH that the seed of Eve Gen 3:15 would as Jesus be made of a woman. Jesus would become the seed word of God when he was anointed at about age 30 with the spirit Son Christ.

(Gen 3:15 KJV) And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Gen 3:15 in my opinion is to be interpreted two ways but that's for another post.

(Luke 8:11 KJV) Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

willyah

 

[kepha31]

They are not angels in Rev 4:8 they are the four beasts and 24 elders-Rev 4:10 and they are not praying rather they are worshipping YHWH Elohim Shaddai the One and Only God. No angel or angels pray to YHWH-YaH but they do always advise the born again spirit man to worship YHWH-YaH.

(Rev 4:8 KJV) And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, YHWH-YaH Elohim Shaddai, which was, and is, and is to come

The four beasts or the four quickened males who are representative males who once were dead but are quickened.

Many fail to see that the Lamb slain was OF the four beasts AND IN THE MIDST OF THE ELDERS worshipping YHWH-YaH Elohim Shaddai.

(Rev 5:6 KJV) And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

(Rev 19:1 KJV) And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

(Rev 19:2 KJV) For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

(Rev 19:3 KJV) And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

(Rev 19:4 KJV) And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

(Rev 19:5 KJV) And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

(Rev 19:6 KJV) And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

(Rev 19:7 KJV) Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

(Rev 19:8 KJV) And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

(Rev 19:9 KJV) And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

(Rev 19:10 KJV) And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he ( the angel) said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

(Rev 22:8 KJV) And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things.

(Rev 22:9 KJV) Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Further more if Jesus is YHWH-YaH-God then YHWH-YaH God worshipped Himself which is absurd. Praying to oneself and praising and worshipping self is exactly what lucifer wanted for himself.

(Isa 14:12 KJV) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

(Isa 14:13 KJV) For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

(Isa 14:14 KJV) I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

(Isa 14:15 KJV) Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

(Luke 10:21 KJV) In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

Rejoicing in spirit is worshipping God a Spirit and as we read in Rev 4:8, again we see Jesus the Lamb slain in the midst of those four quickened males worshipping God for the first and only time in scripture as YHWH ELOHIM SHADDAI.

The words pray, prayer and praying do not appear in the Book of revelation which reveals many things about what was happening in the heaven of YaH.

willyah

OK. Rev. 4:8. 4 Creatures or what ever you want to call them. The point is they are being repetitive. I responded to Bible Student who said they were not.

 

[kepha31]

Wharton, I would very much like to discuss this topic with you, but if you are going to cut and paste from catholic websites, I'm not interested. I put a lot of effort into my posts. If I copy something, I generally tell people up front that the writing is not mine. I'd appreciate reciprocation from the person I am conversing with. I don't mind some copy and paste, but when the whole response is from catholic websites, I have no desire to read it. If there is something I want to read from the catechism, I can do that on my own. I would prefer you think for yourself. If you're not willing to do that, I'll try and find a catholic person who is.

In your own words, tell me what you know (without going to any catholic website) about the Levitical priesthood of the Old Testament. How did they come about? What was their role? If you don't know anything about it, then please be honest and say so.

It is within the rules to copy and paste provided the source is given. Catholicism is for people who think; one could study it for 3 lifetimes and not cover everything. Some things are better expressed by those better learned. One of the reasons why Catholic teaching gets so complicated is that her teachings are under attack in every age for the past 2000 years. In fact, she is the most attacked institution on the planet, including internal attacks. But the gates of hell will not prevail.

In both Old and New Testaments, there are three ranks of priests, which are commonly referred to as the high priests, the ministerial priests, and the universal priests.

At the time of the Exodus the high priest was Aaron (Ex. 31:30), the ministerial priests were his four sons (Ex. 28:21; the sons were Nadab, Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar, the first two of which were killed for abusing their priestly duties), and the universal priests were the people of Israel as a whole (Exodus 19:6).

Prior to this time, there had been neither a high priest nor had God elected all of Israel as universal priests. There was only the ministerial priesthood, which appears to have resided in the firstborn male of each family. The existence of the pre-Aaronic ministerial priesthood is shown inExodus 19:22 and 24, which differentiate the priests from the people but occur before the establishment in the Aaronic priesthood in Exodus 28. The fact that the ministerial priests were held by the firstborn is suggested (though not proven) by the exchange of the priestly tribe of Levi for the firstborn of Israel in Numbers 3.

In any event, the three-fold model of the priesthood which was in use at the time of Aaron was carried over into the New Testament and thus we find there also a high priest, ministerial priests, and universal priests. In the New Testament age the high priest is Jesus Christ (Heb. 3:1), the ministerial priests are Christ’s ordained ministers of the gospel (Rom. 15:16), and the universal priests are the entire Christian people (1 Peter. 2:5, 9).

So the Bible clearly states that all Christians are priests (1 Peter 2:5, 9), as the Catholic Church clearly teaches for all who bother to read its teachings, see Catechism of the Catholic Church 1141-4, 1268, 1305, 1535, 1547, 1591-2 on the common priesthood. But the Bible also said the same thing about the Israelites (Ex. 19:6), yet this did not prevent there from being a separate, ministerial priesthood even before the Law of Moses was given (Ex. 19:22, 24).

Furthermore, since the top, Old Testament office of high priest corresponds to Jesus, the New Testament high priest, and since the bottom, Old Testament universal priesthood corresponds to the New Testament universal priesthood, the middle, ministerial priesthood in the Old Testament corresponds to a middle, ministerial priesthood in the New Testament.
read more at The Office of New Testament Priest

I can't possibly pull that off the top of my head. If you don't like information taken from Catholic sites, maybe you should stop posting in a Catholic DIR.

 

[chlotilde]

As good catholics they cannot speak for themselves regarding their religious thoughts unless they walk lockstep with rcc teaching. I put this as bluntly yet truthfully as possible as any good roman catholic would agree.

willyah

we are merely showing we are all in agreement, and we put it all together in a book so the world can see exactly what it is we do believe. Catholics argue amongst themselves about things that aren't either in or clear in the catechism all the time (go to any Catholic forum). Most Protestants (and by that I mean someone who is neither Catholic nor Orthodox) do not have a text I can turn to and see what exactly it is they agree on, hence many are in disagreement. How is pointing to our catechism to show you what we agree on, any different than someone pointing to a concordance (which means agreement), including Strong's?

 

[chlotilde]

and here I go again...responding to myself...
When someone makes a comment like...why can't you tell me in your own words...I view that as nothing more than an ad hominem. An alternative meaning though, could be that they think religion is meant to be a very personal thing that no one else can share, and so only personal words have value? I typically don't question people on their comments like that, because I don't want to risk putting them in a position of expressing negative feelings. But as you can see by the fact that I have done just that...I am at a loss for my own personal actions,lol.

Personally speaking, It bothers me not one wit that Bible Student uses the Watchtower to help him study the Bible. What bothers me is the fact that the Watchtower seems to have developed doctrines (like no repetitive prayers...instead of saying it is the actual content of those prayers that are offensive to God) that are meant to do nothing more than attack what Catholics do (and perhaps it is just my own personal feelings that I think JW's are particularly anti-Catholic)...and then they have to explain something, that to me clearly goes against their doctrine, in some odd roundabout way that clearly shows the Bible as being something that no one but the Watchtower could understand...really quite circular.

 

[chlotilde]

and then they have to explain something, that to me clearly goes against their doctrine, in some odd roundabout way that clearly shows the Bible as being something that no one but the Watchtower could understand...really quite circular.

and here I go again...lol...
The Catholic Church would never say they are the only ones who can understand Scripture. Proof is the fact that many Christians out there have come to many of the same conclusions as the Church. There are not a lot verses in the Bible where the Church says...this is what that verse means...see how many verses are actually quoted in our Catechism. Everything else is up for grabs, but it does have to be understood within the guiding doctrines (which is something we all do within our minds, whether we call them doctrines or not).