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Mary mother of God

kepha31

Active Member
You are mistaken.They are not praying.That passage says much but you have to know what words mean in God's language of symbolism.For instance,the number 3 in Gods language represents emphasis and intensity.So when the angels are saying holy, holy, holy three times, they are emphasizing God's power and holiness.The number 7 represents completion.6 represents imperfection.There is much more.
Their words are addressed to God, if that isn't prayer I don't know what is. But saying or praying is not the point. They are saying the same thing day and night. That requires repetition. There is no way around it.

There is good repetition that is pleasing to God, and vain repetition which is a waste of time. Non-Catholics pray, Catholics say prayers. One type of prayer is not inferior to the other.
 

chlotilde

Madame Curie
You are mistaken.They are not praying.That passage says much but you have to know what words mean in God's language of symbolism.For instance,the number 3 in Gods language represents emphasis and intensity.So when the angels are saying holy, holy, holy three times, they are emphasizing God's power and holiness.The number 7 represents completion.6 represents imperfection.There is much more.

Dude, you’re cracking me up here…people here, tell me I am not the only one who sees the irony in this interpretation.


Okay...serious here…so to me, you are saying, in your bible interpretation tradition, the context of this verse is meant to be understood numerologically, i.e., based on God symbols (aka semiology…you a Dan Brown fan perchance?). Why is this verse interpreted numerologically? And, Does that numerological interpretation hold true for all of, say, Revelations…in that all of Revelations should be understood by God symbols? Because, if so, what does the symbol 144,000 (from Rev. 14) mean in God semiology?
 

chlotilde

Madame Curie
The Bible is the truth of God. He gave us what we needed in His word to know how to be saved, and how to live a life pleasing to Him. Saying we need more is insulting to God. You're suggesting God doesn't know what our needs are.
wow, you presume to know the mind of God to know when he is insulted? I hope that is not what you really meant by those words.

so..trying to keep this short cuz I hate reading long posts myself. J
Personally, I don’t think it is wrong to practice Sola Scriptura, a tradition started by Martin Luther. And there are many non-Catholics who do study only the Bible and who are great people worthy of salvation. At some level I envy them, because for those who are given more, more is expected, such is the burden this catholic bears (because by converse, you have been given less, so less is expected). God does know we all have different needs. I have a need to know what the heck people did before a bible was assembled. And how the heck did people choose what to put in that Bible? And why the heck does the Bible you read have less books than the Bible I read? You may (or may not) think that is important in your search for Truth…but I believe it is important in my search for Truth . And I can point to many verses in the Bible that say I should follow what is said both by scripture and by mouth…so I feel the need to know more. If the Holy Spirit is telling you less, then so be it.

All of the above are acts or forms of worship according to the NT
.

I agree, but is bowing down and kissing God a form of worship or not? Because if it is biblical, as you said, do you do it, or not? And if you don't do it, why not? Just curious.
 

katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
"chlotilde, post: 4176915, member: 1127"]wow, you presume to know the mind of God to know when he is insulted? I hope that is not what you really meant by those words.
Sorry I couldn't spend much time posting yesterday. I'll try to keep this post short. Like you, I hate reading long posts. :)

I don't have to guess what God thinks. I can read what He wrote. He said ALL Scripture is inspired and THOROUGHLY equips us. Thoroughly says to me that Scripture is all we need. The Lord has provided.

Personally, I don’t think it is wrong to practice Sola Scriptura, a tradition started by Martin Luther. And there are many non-Catholics who do study only the Bible and who are great people worthy of salvation. At some level I envy them, because for those who are given more, more is expected, such is the burden this catholic bears (because by converse, you have been given less, so less is expected). God does know we all have different needs. I have a need to know what the heck people did before a bible was assembled. And how the heck did people choose what to put in that Bible? And why the heck does the Bible you read have less books than the Bible I read? You may (or may not) think that is important in your search for Truth…but I believe it is important in my search for Truth . And I can point to many verses in the Bible that say I should follow what is said both by scripture and by mouth…so I feel the need to know more. If the Holy Spirit is telling you less, then so be it.
Practicing sola Scripture has been done since the church began. Martin Luther was not the originator. Jesus was, followed by His apostles.

I think your questions about the Bible are excellent! I would add one of my own. Do those extra books in the catholic Bible tell us anything we must know in regards to salvation and christian living? I've never read them, so I don't know.

Did you know that the word "tradition" appears in the NT 14 times? All but three are derogatory. I woukd like to discuss this further with you.

I agree, but is bowing down and kissing God a form of worship or not? Because if it is biblical, as you said, do you do it, or not? And if you don't do it, why not? Just curious.
My understanding is that bowing down is the definition, so I would say yes bowing is a form of worship. There are tons of verses to support this. If Jesus were here on earth today, I would bow down to Him, but Jesus isn't here, and I will not bow before men or statues. However, when I speak to God in prayer, there are times I kneel, and bow my head. My whole point about the def. of worship was to point out that there are catholics, especially in other countries, that bow down to statues of Mary, and they pray to her, petitioning her for various things. This is worship!
 

katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
re: Bible Idolatry.

Catholics get told we don't worship the Bible...so that must mean they worship the Bible. We also believe stuff like...even people who can't read or even own a Bible can be saved.
Run away from anyone who tells you that you should worship anything other than GOD!
 

katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
it does not support sola scriptura. Anyone who interpreted scripture to support a faction apart from Apostolic Teaching were arrogant.
"Do not go beyond what is written" does support using Scripture alone. All Scripture is inspired and THOROUGHLY equips us. Those are God's words. Deny them if you want.
But even if the phrase is taken literally, to what was Paul referring? The Talmud? The Mosaic law? The Old Testament Scriptures? This proves too much for the Protestant because there was no New Testament canon at the time Paul wrote this, and the text says nothing about the Bible being the sole rule and guide of faith
Paul received his teachings directly from Jesus Christ. He passed those teachings on to the churches, both orally and in writing. Paul also used the Old Testament Scriptures. There is every reason to take the verse literally. Paul spoke and wrote by inspiration. "Do not go beyond what is written" is not a stand alone verse.

It doesn't say written word(s). Most of all it doesn't say "Every written word alone of God is pure". That's what you read into it and you are wrong.
You don't think every word of God is pure?
It doesn't need to say "written." EVERY word of God is pure. We know His every word is pure. Don't add or take away from it is the point.

What statutes and judgments is God commanding here? This verse does not support sola scriptura.
He is commanding that we do not add or take away from His words, and He is telling us to keep His commands.
This verse applies only to the Book of Revelation.
Does it make the words untrue?

The man of God is not each individual bible reader. In every instance in the Bible, the "man of God" is
A) an ordained clergyman, or,
B) one called directly by God who is followed by signs and wonders
That rules out most of us.
Not true! All Christians are men of God.
A man of God is one who is super equipped by the word of God. Scriptures are the soul's essential food.

Hear Jesus:

”It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God’” (Matthew 4:4; ).

Hear Moses:

“Take heart all the words by which I am warning you today, that you may command them to your children, that they may be careful to do all the words of this law. For it is no empty word for you, but your very life” (Deuteronomy 32:46, 47;
Yes, but you think the sacredness of this Tradition expired. I'd like to see a verse for that one.
Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was ONCE FOR ALL delivered to the saints. (Jude 3)

What is derogatory is on those who refuse to follow the "traditions which he received of us". That's what it means.
"US" are the apostles who got their teachings straight from Jesus Christ. The apostles passed those teachings on tho the churches both orally and in writing.

Funny how oral tradition is listed first.
Jesus spoke directly to the apostles who passed the teachings on to the church orally and then in writing.

The faith has ONCE FOR ALL been delivered to the saints. Jude 3
Funny how Paul doesn't say, "keep the letters as I delivered them to you."
Traditions means teachings, and Paul's teachings were straight from the mouth of Jesus.

Well, if Paul on one hand says to keep tradition, then condemns them as traditions of men, I'd say there is something definitely wrong with your interpretation. Lumping "traditions of men" with Sacred Tradition will just make you look foolish.
Paul wan't confused. He knows the difference between the inspired teachings and the teachings of men. So do I. You are the one who sees no difference. By the way, the traditions or teachings of men are not Sacred.

Throughout your entire post, you argued not against me, but against God's word. Every verse I quoted spoke for itself, and you denied every single one of them. Don't go beyond what is written. Don't add or take away from God's word. There was nothing to interpret in those verses, yet you denied what they said. You are a classic example of what Jesus was talking about in the following verse.

Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God.'" Matthew 15:9

 
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4consideration

*
Premium Member
"Do not go beyond what is written" does support using Scripture alone. All Scripture is inspired and THOROUGHLY equips us. Those are God's words. Deny them if you want.

Paul received his teachings directly from Jesus Christ. He passed those teachings on to the churches, both orally and in writing. Paul also used the Old Testament Scriptures. There is every reason to take the verse literally. Paul spoke and wrote by inspiration. "Do not go beyond what is written" is not a stand alone verse.

You don't think every word of God is pure?
It doesn't need to say "written." EVERY word of God is pure. We know His every word is pure. Don't add or take away from it is the point.


He is commanding that we do not add or take away from His words, and He is telling us to keep His commands.
Sorry to butt into your conversation, but I'm curious about something.

Do you think the instructions given to the Disciples apply to us here and now as apostles, and if so, are those instructions given by Jesus that which one should not add or subtract from -- like the instruction to the Disciples to "shake the dust" from their feet when not well received in a town or house?

I noticed you used that expression earlier in the thread, so I'm curious as to whether or not you think it scripturally applies to you, or if it's just an expression you're using.
 

kepha31

Active Member
"Do not go beyond what is written" does support using Scripture alone. All Scripture is inspired and THOROUGHLY equips us. Those are God's words. Deny them if you want.
I don't deny God's words, I deny your private interpretation, or the opinions of those who taught you.

Paul received his teachings directly from Jesus Christ. He passed those teachings on to the churches, both orally and in writing. Paul also used the Old Testament Scriptures. There is every reason to take the verse literally. Paul spoke and wrote by inspiration. "Do not go beyond what is written" is not a stand alone verse.
Maybe you can finally tell me which "written" Paul was referring to. A New Testament that didn't yet fully exist? The Talmud? The Mosaic law? The Old Testament Scriptures? "Do not go beyond what is written" says nothing about the Bible being the sole rule of faith.

You don't think every word of God is pure?
It doesn't need to say "written." EVERY word of God is pure. We know His every word is pure. Don't add or take away from it is the point.

Of course I think every word of God is pure. I don't think God limits the mode of transmitting His Word to just the written word. I am still waiting for any verse in the entire Bible that explicitly states "word of God" just means the written word alone. You can't give one because it doesn't exist.

He is commanding that we do not add or take away from His words, and He is telling us to keep His commands.

He is commanding that we do not add or take away from His words is found only in Revelation, the Book Jesus is referring to.

Martin Luther added the word "alone" to Romans 3:28 to bolster his heresy of "justification by faith alone". Was he adding to God's word?

Not true! All Christians are men of God.
A man of God is one who is super equipped by the word of God. Scriptures are the soul's essential food.
So everybody is a pastor? "Man of God" is found throughout scripture. It's a person ordained by the laying on of hands, or a person called directly by God followed by signs and wonders. Since you can't find it's usage to apply to any believer, you should stop repeating yourself.

Moses - "This is the blessing with which Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death." (Deut. 33:1)

"Then the people of Judah came to Joshua at Gilgal; and Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite said to him, 'You know what the LORD said to Moses the man of God in Kadesh-barnea concerning you and me.'" (Josh. 14:6)

The Angel of the Lord - "Then the woman came and told her husband, 'A man of God came to me, and his countenance was like the countenance of the angel of God, very terrible; I did not ask him whence he was, and he did not tell me his name...' Then Manoah entreated the LORD, and said, 'O, LORD, I pray thee, let the man of God whom thou didst send come again to us, and teach us what we are to do with the boy that will be born.'" (Jud. 13:6, 8)

Samuel - "The servant answered Saul again, 'Here, I have with me the fourth part of a shekel of silver, and I will give it to the man of God, to tell us our way.'" (1 Sam. 9:8)

Elijah - "And she said to Elijah, 'What have you against me, O man of God? You have come to me to bring my sin to remembrance, and to cause the death of my son!'" (1 Kings 17:18)

Elisha - "And she went up and laid him on the bed of the man of God, and shut the door upon him, and went out... When Elisha came into the house, he saw the child lying dead on his bed." (2 Kings 4:21, 32)

David - "According to the ordinance of David his father, he appointed the divisions of the priests for their service, and the Levites for their offices of praise and ministry before the priests as the duty of each day required, and the gatekeepers in their divisions for the several gates; for so David the man of God had commanded." (2 Chr. 8:14)

St. Timothy - "But as for you, man of God, shun all this; aim at righteousness, godliness, faith, love, steadfastness, gentleness." (1 Tim. 6:11)

Contrary to your opinion that the "man of God" can be any Christian without distinction, Scripture itself will not allow such an interpretation, insisting that the "man of God" is a figure of authority, either commissioned by God directly through Divine Intervention (such as Moses or the Angel), or appointed by another holder of authority (such as Samuel, David, Elisha, and St. Timothy).

From this very brief survey of the phrase "man of God" (there are perhaps a dozen or so more passages, relating to the characters listed above - I have chosen representative verses), we see that what holds true for "pastors" holds true for the "man of God": it is a title of authority that can in no way be taken upon oneself, but rather, it is bestowed upon a man by a higher authority. A man must be called by God to hold this title of "man of God."
By What Authority - A Challenge to Protestant Pastors

Paul wan't confused. He knows the difference between the inspired teachings and the teachings of men. So do I. You are the one who sees no difference. By the way, the traditions or teachings of men are not Sacred.
Sola scriptura is not in the Bible, it is a corrupt tradition of men, which you can't defend. The Authority of Scripture is a Sacred Tradition, but your hostility and prejudice blinds you from accepting any explanation.

Throughout your entire post, you argued not against me, but against God's word. Every verse I quoted spoke for itself, and you denied every single one of them. Don't go beyond what is written. Don't add or take away from God's word. There was nothing to interpret in those verses, yet you denied what they said. You are a classic example of what Jesus was talking about in the following verse.

Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God.'" Matthew 15:9
Jesus was talking about Catholics? Or rigid adheres of the law where superstitious washing of hands and dietary rules become more important than purity of heart? I don't argue against God's word, I argue against your abuse of it. You are scourging Jesus with scripture. Shame on you.
 

katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
Sorry to butt into your conversation, but I'm curious about something.

Do you think the instructions given to the Disciples apply to us here and now as apostles, and if so, are those instructions given by Jesus that which one should not add or subtract from -- like the instruction to the Disciples to "shake the dust" from their feet when not well received in a town or house?

I noticed you used that expression earlier in the thread, so I'm curious as to whether or not you think it scripturally applies to you, or if it's just an expression you're using.
Yes I think for the most part Jesus' instructions are for all of us. Shaking the dust would be one that does apply, and that is very hard for me to do. I want everyone to be saved. There are times when we do have to just walk away though, just as Jesus said.

I would have to think about which of Jesus' instructions would not apply to us today. One verse that comes to mind is from Mark 16 where Jesus tell His disciples to preach the gospel to all the word, and then He says believers will be casting out demons, handling snakes and drinking poison without harm coming to them. The only part which applies to us is preaching the gospel. The age of miracles and supernatural spiritual powers has passed. They are no longer needed to convince people that Jesus is who He said He was. We have our proof in the word.

But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. (John 20:31)

Sometimes, when Jesus spoke to His apostles, His words were meant for them alone. When He promised that He would send the Holy Spirit to help them remember everything He said, that promise was to the apostles alone.

I hope I was able to answer your question.
 
Thank you for your respect. I have learned something new. I never knew anything about two places where the "dead" go. I know my grandmother is a Christian. Whether she is in heaven or hell, I do not know because that is not my personal belief (her or my belief does not make anything true). I do know that people do not just vanish after we pass. I also know that we have the same personality and faith as we did living. So, my praying to my grandmother is talking to her when she was alive. Actually, that's what I'm doing. I'm talking to my grandmother. There is no difference just because her physical body is gone.

Stemming from what I just said, when I had talk to Jesus to know more about His Father, I did so because I knew He just like my grandmother and everyone else, are alive in spirit. So, I know in someway He heard my prayers.

The huge difference is when any Catholic (I hope) prays to a Saint, they do not replace that Saint with God or Jesus.

Gosh another way to put it. It's similar to saying:

"Katiemygirl, my grandmother has passed away. I don't know what to say because I feel so far from Jesus."

(In this analogy, you may say) "I'm sorry to hear that, is there anything I can do to help?"

Me: "I don't know how to ask Jesus to comfort me through these troubles I'm feeling. I don't know what to say."

You: "I can help you out if you like?"

Me: "Thank you."

I ask if you can pray to Jesus for me while I figure what to say. I ask that you ask Him to bless me and give me strength because it's hard to do so on my own. I am hoping that you will "put in the good word" for me. It is a act of charity not a necessity that you ask God to help me out a bit.

I have the ability to pray on my own, of course. The fact I need help doing so, makes it hard.

If you had passed away, heaven forbid, you have not vanished from thin air. So, my going through the same dialogue and asking you for help will be no different than I ask you now.

In this analogy, I am not putting you over God. I am not bypassing Jesus and saying, "hey katie, can you bless me". In Christianity, that can't be done. I ask you to ask God to bless me. That is what Catholics do when they pray to Saints. That is what they ask when they go to confession. Neither the Saints or father blesses them--only God.

The key is: No one can pray to the dead because there is no dead just spirits who have passed on.



I just missed over this "Mary is to be loved, respected, and honored, but she should never be worshiped or prayed to."

Praying to someone is not worshiping. I don't worship my grandmother by praying to her. That is an insult to her and to her Creator. Many, I won't say all, Catholics feel the same way. You can pray to anyone you want but that does not equal worship. Mary is honored (good word), loved, and respected in prayer and in thought, but she is not worshiped.

EDIT: Sorry, one more thing. Any Catholic can say "Jesus help me out." Sometimes they feel comfortable saying "Mary help me out" not because they dismiss Jesus for Mary..maybe they have a connection with Mary (not the same as Jesus) just like you may talk to one friend about subject X and another about subject Y.

The key is, whoever they pray to, all blessings etc come from God the Father, not Mary, not St. Jude, and not the priest.
 
Thank you for your respect. I have learned something new. I never knew anything about two places where the "dead" go. I know my grandmother is a Christian. Whether she is in heaven or hell, I do not know because that is not my personal belief (her or my belief does not make anything true). I do know that people do not just vanish after we pass. I also know that we have the same personality and faith as we did living. So, my praying to my grandmother is talking to her when she was alive. Actually, that's what I'm doing. I'm talking to my grandmother. There is no difference just because her physical body is gone.

Stemming from what I just said, when I had talk to Jesus to know more about His Father, I did so because I knew He just like my grandmother and everyone else, are alive in spirit. So, I know in someway He heard my prayers.

The huge difference is when any Catholic (I hope) prays to a Saint, they do not replace that Saint with God or Jesus.

Gosh another way to put it. It's similar to saying:

"Katiemygirl, my grandmother has passed away. I don't know what to say because I feel so far from Jesus."

(In this analogy, you may say) "I'm sorry to hear that, is there anything I can do to help?"

Me: "I don't know how to ask Jesus to comfort me through these troubles I'm feeling. I don't know what to say."

You: "I can help you out if you like?"

Me: "Thank you."

I ask if you can pray to Jesus for me while I figure what to say. I ask that you ask Him to bless me and give me strength because it's hard to do so on my own. I am hoping that you will "put in the good word" for me. It is a act of charity not a necessity that you ask God to help me out a bit.

I have the ability to pray on my own, of course. The fact I need help doing so, makes it hard.

If you had passed away, heaven forbid, you have not vanished from thin air. So, my going through the same dialogue and asking you for help will be no different than I ask you now.

In this analogy, I am not putting you over God. I am not bypassing Jesus and saying, "hey katie, can you bless me". In Christianity, that can't be done. I ask you to ask God to bless me. That is what Catholics do when they pray to Saints. That is what they ask when they go to confession. Neither the Saints or father blesses them--only God.

The key is: No one can pray to the dead because there is no dead just spirits who have passed on.



I just missed over this "Mary is to be loved, respected, and honored, but she should never be worshiped or prayed to."

Praying to someone is not worshiping. I don't worship my grandmother by praying to her. That is an insult to her and to her Creator. Many, I won't say all, Catholics feel the same way. You can pray to anyone you want but that does not equal worship. Mary is honored (good word), loved, and respected in prayer and in thought, but she is not worshiped.

EDIT: Sorry, one more thing. Any Catholic can say "Jesus help me out." Sometimes they feel comfortable saying "Mary help me out" not because they dismiss Jesus for Mary..maybe they have a connection with Mary (not the same as Jesus) just like you may talk to one friend about subject X and another about subject Y.

The key is, whoever they pray to, all blessings etc come from God the Father, not Mary, not St. Jude, and not the priest.

I know my grandmother is a Christian. Whether she is in heaven or hell, I do not know because that is not my personal belief (her or my belief does not make anything true).



Thank you for your respect. I have learned something new. I never knew anything about two places where the "dead" go. I know my grandmother is a Christian. Whether she is in heaven or hell, I do not know because that is not my personal belief (her or my belief does not make anything true). I do know that people do not just vanish after we pass. I also know that we have the same personality and faith as we did living. So, my praying to my grandmother is talking to her when she was alive. Actually, that's what I'm doing. I'm talking to my grandmother. There is no difference just because her physical body is gone.

Stemming from what I just said, when I had talk to Jesus to know more about His Father, I did so because I knew He just like my grandmother and everyone else, are alive in spirit. So, I know in someway He heard my prayers.

The huge difference is when any Catholic (I hope) prays to a Saint, they do not replace that Saint with God or Jesus.

Gosh another way to put it. It's similar to saying:

"Katiemygirl, my grandmother has passed away. I don't know what to say because I feel so far from Jesus."

(In this analogy, you may say) "I'm sorry to hear that, is there anything I can do to help?"

Me: "I don't know how to ask Jesus to comfort me through these troubles I'm feeling. I don't know what to say."

You: "I can help you out if you like?"

Me: "Thank you."

I ask if you can pray to Jesus for me while I figure what to say. I ask that you ask Him to bless me and give me strength because it's hard to do so on my own. I am hoping that you will "put in the good word" for me. It is a act of charity not a necessity that you ask God to help me out a bit.

I have the ability to pray on my own, of course. The fact I need help doing so, makes it hard.

If you had passed away, heaven forbid, you have not vanished from thin air. So, my going through the same dialogue and asking you for help will be no different than I ask you now.

In this analogy, I am not putting you over God. I am not bypassing Jesus and saying, "hey katie, can you bless me". In Christianity, that can't be done. I ask you to ask God to bless me. That is what Catholics do when they pray to Saints. That is what they ask when they go to confession. Neither the Saints or father blesses them--only God.

The key is: No one can pray to the dead because there is no dead just spirits who have passed on.



I just missed over this "Mary is to be loved, respected, and honored, but she should never be worshiped or prayed to."

Praying to someone is not worshiping. I don't worship my grandmother by praying to her. That is an insult to her and to her Creator. Many, I won't say all, Catholics feel the same way. You can pray to anyone you want but that does not equal worship. Mary is honored (good word), loved, and respected in prayer and in thought, but she is not worshiped.

EDIT: Sorry, one more thing. Any Catholic can say "Jesus help me out." Sometimes they feel comfortable saying "Mary help me out" not because they dismiss Jesus for Mary..maybe they have a connection with Mary (not the same as Jesus) just like you may talk to one friend about subject X and another about subject Y.

The key is, whoever they pray to, all blessings etc come from God the Father, not Mary, not St. Jude, and not the priest.
Thank you for your respect. I have learned something new. I never knew anything about two places where the "dead" go. I know my grandmother is a Christian. Whether she is in heaven or hell, I do not know because that is not my personal belief (her or my belief does not make anything true). I do know that people do not just vanish after we pass. I also know that we have the same personality and faith as we did living. So, my praying to my grandmother is talking to her when she was alive. Actually, that's what I'm doing. I'm talking to my grandmother. There is no difference just because her physical body is gone.

Stemming from what I just said, when I had talk to Jesus to know more about His Father, I did so because I knew He just like my grandmother and everyone else, are alive in spirit. So, I know in someway He heard my prayers.

The huge difference is when any Catholic (I hope) prays to a Saint, they do not replace that Saint with God or Jesus.

Gosh another way to put it. It's similar to saying:

"Katiemygirl, my grandmother has passed away. I don't know what to say because I feel so far from Jesus."

(In this analogy, you may say) "I'm sorry to hear that, is there anything I can do to help?"

Me: "I don't know how to ask Jesus to comfort me through these troubles I'm feeling. I don't know what to say."

You: "I can help you out if you like?"

Me: "Thank you."

I ask if you can pray to Jesus for me while I figure what to say. I ask that you ask Him to bless me and give me strength because it's hard to do so on my own. I am hoping that you will "put in the good word" for me. It is a act of charity not a necessity that you ask God to help me out a bit.

I have the ability to pray on my own, of course. The fact I need help doing so, makes it hard.

If you had passed away, heaven forbid, you have not vanished from thin air. So, my going through the same dialogue and asking you for help will be no different than I ask you now.

In this analogy, I am not putting you over God. I am not bypassing Jesus and saying, "hey katie, can you bless me". In Christianity, that can't be done. I ask you to ask God to bless me. That is what Catholics do when they pray to Saints. That is what they ask when they go to confession. Neither the Saints or father blesses them--only God.

The key is: No one can pray to the dead because there is no dead just spirits who have passed on.



I just missed over this "Mary is to be loved, respected, and honored, but she should never be worshiped or prayed to."

Praying to someone is not worshiping. I don't worship my grandmother by praying to her. That is an insult to her and to her Creator. Many, I won't say all, Catholics feel the same way. You can pray to anyone you want but that does not equal worship. Mary is honored (good word), loved, and respected in prayer and in thought, but she is not worshiped.

EDIT: Sorry, one more thing. Any Catholic can say "Jesus help me out." Sometimes they feel comfortable saying "Mary help me out" not because they dismiss Jesus for Mary..maybe they have a connection with Mary (not the same as Jesus) just like you may talk to one friend about subject X and another about subject Y.

The key is, whoever they pray to, all blessings etc come from God the Father, not Mary, not St. Jude, and not the priest.

(Mat 16:16 KJV) And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

(Mat 16:18 KJV) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter-petros, and upon this rock-petra I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The rock petra is Christ and anyone who like Peter confesses that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, they become a part of the one body of Christ the church and they will prevail against the gates of hell.

willyah
 

idea

Question Everything
(Mat 16:16 KJV) And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

(Mat 16:18 KJV) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter-petros, and upon this rock-petra I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The rock petra is Christ and anyone who like Peter confesses that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, they become a part of the one body of Christ the church and they will prevail against the gates of hell.

I agree, the rock the church is built on is not Peter, but on Jesus, and on revelation.

“When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? …

“And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

“And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

“And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Peter knew that Jesus was the Christ through revelation: “Flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.”

The Bible also supports this interpretation. A textual analysis of this passage clearly demonstrates that, although the keys of the kingdom were given to Simon Peter, the church was not built upon him. It was built, instead, upon Christ, the “rock” of revelation.

The Greek text, for example, makes it clear that the “rock” in verse 18 was not Peter. The Greek word used for Peter is petros, a masculine noun meaning a small rock or stone. The Greek word for rock (“upon this rock”) is petra, a feminine noun meaning bedrock. Thus, the Greek text reads like this: “Thou art Peter [petros, small rock], and upon this rock [petra, bedrock] I will build my church.”

Who is this petra, this large rock-mass? The answer is given explicitly in 1 Corinthians 10:1–4: [1 Cor. 10:1–4]

“All our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

“And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

“And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

“And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. (Italics added.)

The Greek word for Rock in the passage above, as in the verse in Matthew, is petra (bedrock). There is no question that Christ is the “Rock” the Church was to be built upon, rather than Peter. Paul told the Corinthians that “other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.” (1 Cor. 3:11.)
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Have a butt-in question for you: Wouldn't the Church be built off of the Apostles who witness to the gentiles about the Rock or Christ?

Wouldn't "Jesus gave Peter the keys" be interpreted as He gave Peter the authority with the disciples to be witnesses to Christ's Words (which is that of His Father)?

If so, that would mean Peter would be the rock of the Church but the Church cannot live without a foundation which of course Peter, and everyone else would agree is Christ.

So, Peter didn't replace Jesus just Jesus gave Him the authority (not the same as His Father gave Him) to preach His Father's Word with His (Jesus and His Father's ) permission.


I agree, the rock the church is built on is not Peter, but on Jesus, and on revelation.



Peter knew that Jesus was the Christ through revelation: “Flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.”

The Bible also supports this interpretation. A textual analysis of this passage clearly demonstrates that, although the keys of the kingdom were given to Simon Peter, the church was not built upon him. It was built, instead, upon Christ, the “rock” of revelation.

The Greek text, for example, makes it clear that the “rock” in verse 18 was not Peter. The Greek word used for Peter is petros, a masculine noun meaning a small rock or stone. The Greek word for rock (“upon this rock”) is petra, a feminine noun meaning bedrock. Thus, the Greek text reads like this: “Thou art Peter [petros, small rock], and upon this rock [petra, bedrock] I will build my church.”

Who is this petra, this large rock-mass? The answer is given explicitly in 1 Corinthians 10:1–4: [1 Cor. 10:1–4]

“All our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

“And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

“And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

“And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. (Italics added.)

The Greek word for Rock in the passage above, as in the verse in Matthew, is petra (bedrock). There is no question that Christ is the “Rock” the Church was to be built upon, rather than Peter. Paul told the Corinthians that “other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.” (1 Cor. 3:11.)
 
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rcc
Guys, Mary can't be Mother of half of Jesus and not the other half. Jesus is One person not two. Mary is Mother of Jesus (Both spirit/body). To say she is not the Mother of God, is saying Jesus is not God. To many Christians, this is an insult.

CARLITA said:

Again, you are splitting Jesus' nature.
Do you believe Jesus is both human and spirit?
Do you believe Jesus is God?
Do you believe in the trinity--God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit?
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KJV replies: Three no's:
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Carlita:
If you do, you should at least understand what I am saying.
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KJV replies: Understanding = (Prov 9:9 KJV) Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.

(Prov 9:10 KJV) The fear of YHWH-YaH is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

(2 Tim 3:15 KJV) And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
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Carlita said:
To many Christians, Jesus is ONE person with two distinct natures. He is one of Spirit (the Spirit of Christ that indwells in your heart) Romans 8:9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." The Spirit of Christ fills your heart as a Christian. Without His Spirit through His resurrection, how are you, kjv4me2you, saved? (if you are Christian)
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KJV replies:
I am saved by faith the faith of Christ. (Gal 2:16 KJV) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God and I do not see " two natures" mentioned in Holy Scripture. Can you find any scripture where Jesus said to his apostles I have something to tell you I ( Jesus) have two natures but he never taught that doctrine nor did the spirit of truth who revealed to the apostles all Jesus every said to them and he never said to them I have two natures.

(John 14:26 KJV) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

(John 15:26 KJV) But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

(John 16:13 KJV) Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

THE RCC COUNCIL OF CHALCEDON 451 AD AND THEIR TWO NATURES
The organization known as the roman catholic church did exist in 451 AD and the two natures doctrine came out of the rcc council of Chalcedon 451 AD. The Council of Chalcedon was the rcc church of Rome council held from October 8 to November 1, AD 451, at Chalcedon (a city of Bithynia in Asia Minor), on the Asian side of the Bosporus,in Istanbul, although it was then separate from Constantinople.

The rcc church is not the church of Rome mentioned in the epistle to the Romans nor is any church today one of the churches in scripture just because they use a name of a church in scripture.

The church of Rome mentioned in the Bible was a Gentile church (Rom 1:13 KJV) Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.

(Rom 1:14 KJV) I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.

(Rom 1:15 KJV) So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

The church of Rome no longer existed in 96 AD as a word of God believing church and was not even mentioned by the apostle John in the epistle of Revelation that he was told to write to the seven churches. God removed the candlestick from the church of Rome and many other churches for not staying true to the word of God.
It seems to me that the rcc Roman church along with many other churches do not know that its candlestick has been removed.

THE TWO NATURE TEACHING-DOCTRINE OF RCC
The two natures TEACHING did not come from YHWH-YaH or from Jesus the son of Mary who was anointed with the spirit Son Christ making Jesus, that Christ, that Messiah as a Jew out of the tribe of Juda. When the anointing-Christ was upon or with the nation Israel that is when YHWH-YaH told Pharaoh that Israel was His firstborn Son ( Exo 4:22) and when the anointing-Christ came upon Jesus a Jew, out of Juda, the son of Mary,it was then that YHWH-YaH told Israel that Jesus was His beloved Son.

(Exo 4:22 KJV) And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
(Mat 3:17 KJV) And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.



Nationally Israel as the firstborn Son of YHWH-YaH searched by the spirit of Christ in them what, or what manner of time would the sufferings of Christ ocurr. Israel knew that a Jew would be anointed by YHWH-YaH with the spirit Son Christ but what Israel did not know was that ( Israel) would need to be born again by the Spirit Son Christ, so that Israel would become, that which was flesh as the firstborn Son of God ( Exo 4:22) would be born becoming Israel born again as spirit by the Spirit, known as the Israel of Elohim (Gal 4:16).
Those Hebrews who were and who now can still be born again of the Spirit Son Christ can still YHWH-YaH as their Abba Father their Father of spirits

(1 Pet 1:11 KJV) Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

(Gal 6:16 KJV) And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Once the fullness of the spirit Son Christ was upon Jesusthen Mary's son Jesus was born a again Jew out of Juda. Israel the firstborn son of YaH had to be born again by the spirit Son Christ and that would happen for those Jews-Hebrews who confess that Jesus is that Christ.

THIS JESUS IS WHOM I PREACH IS CHRIST.

The apostle Paul is clear (Acts 17:3 KJV) Opening and alleging, that the spirit Son Christ- (the anointing- the Messias) must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ-the Messiah.

Jesus was anointed in (Luke 3:22 KJV) And the Holy Ghost- (4154-the spirit Son Christ) descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him ( Jesus) , and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

Jesus was not called the beloved Son of God until after he was anointed by God with the spirit Christ
(Luke 1:30 KJV) And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

(Luke 1:31 KJV) And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

(Luke 1:32 KJV) He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

(Luke 1:33 KJV) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Jesus the son of Mary was anointed in Luke 3:22 when he was about 30 years of age this is fulfilled

(Luke 3:23 KJV) And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

YHWH told John the Baptist that he would know who in Israel was going to be the anointed-the Christ the one with the Spirit of YaH upon him when John Baptist saw the spirit Son Christ descended in a bodily shape LIKE a dove.

(John 1:33 KJV) And I knew him not: but he ( YHWH-YaH) that sent me to baptize with water, the same ( YaH) said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit ( Son ) Christ descending, and remaining on him, the same (him) is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Baptize with Holy Ghost-anointed by the spirit Son Christ to be born again by the Spirit Son Christ. Israel the firstborn national Son of YHWH-YaH had to be born again of the Spirit of Christ because that which is spirit is spirit and that which is flesh is flesh. (John 3:6 KJV) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John the Baptist was a greater prophet than even the prophet Jesus (Luke 7:28 KJV) For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

JESUS WAS THE PROPHET OF DEUT 18:18 AS STATED BY PETER (Acts 3:23 KJV) And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

(Deu 18:18 KJV) I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

Jesus was made of a woman as a mortal whereas the spirit Son Christ was not made of a woman.

(Luke 7:28 KJV) For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

(Gal 4:4 KJV) But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

(John 3:5 KJV) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(John 3:6 KJV) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

(John 3:7 KJV) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

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Carlita said:
Jesus is also human. 1 John 4:2 "By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:"

YHWH sent His spirit Son Christ the anointing

He is ONE person with two natures.

Mary is the Mother of that ONE person--that ONE person is Christ.

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KJV replies:

TRULY, truly, again, again I say unto you.FMary is not the mother of spirits nor the mother of the spirit of Jesus. It is YaH and ONLY YAH who Father's spirits. (Heb 12:9 KJV) Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Jesus the son of Mary as a Jew out of Juda who was made mortal by the mortal woman Mary but the spirit of Jesus was Fathered by God-YHWH-YaH.


The spirit Christ was birthed by YHWH-YaH as His spirit Son who was and who still is of the bosom of God as I said before Mary did not and does not Father spirits nor the spirit Son Christ. The spirit Son Christ was born of God before Jesus the son of Mary was made of a woman.

Believing Israel was the earthly Son of YaH ( Exo 4:22) up until Jesus the Son of Mary was made of the woman Mary as that seed of Eve in Gen 3:15.


(Luke 23:46 KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Jesus commended his spirit to WHO? Not to Mary but to His Father and God who is the Father of his spirit who Father's the born again spirits of all believers.

(Gal 4:6 KJV) And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Notice not crying mother Mary but rather a born again spirit knows it's Father and God
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carlita said:
BOTH His Spirit and His human side. They are not separate. If they were, Jesus would have a sinful nature. Since He is perfect, both flesh and spirit go together, die together and resurrected together.

Mary is the Mother of Jesus--BOTH His spirit and his human side because that makes up who He is. (Using "is" to mean singular).

So Mary is the Mother of God the Son. and not God the Father.

You are talking about God the Father, I am talking about God the Son.

Just as my parent is not just the parent of Carlita the human, she is also a parent of Carlita the spirit. Both spirit and flesh is who I am--my nature.

You cannot split Christ in half.
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KJV replies:
And you cannot make YHWH-YaH Israel's ONE YaH to be three gods in one.
(Deu 6:4 KJV) Hear, O Israel: YHWH-pronounced YaH our Elohim-God is one YHWH-YaH:


Of course Jesus a Jew agrees with scripture. Do you agree Carlita with Jesus ? (Mark 12:29 KJV) And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; YHWH-YaH our God is one YHWH-YaH.

(Rev 21:22 KJV) And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

(Rev 21:22 KJV) And I saw no temple therein: for YHWH ELOHIM SHADDAI and the Lamb are the temple of it.

Revelation 3:21 is seen ONE time in scripture and I believe it is because it is shows us the ONE name of YHWH-YaH and HIS title ELOHIM SHADDAI all together.

(John 14:23 KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Jesus was the lamb of God he was not God the lamb. No scripture declares Jesus as YHWH ELOHIM SHADDAI.

JESUS THE LAMB OF GOD SAID THE FATHER WAS HIS GOD
Jesus said the Father was his God. (John 20:17 KJV) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

The reason Jesus said "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." was because of Israel's relationship as the firstborn Son if God.

(Exo 4:22 KJV) And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

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carlita said:
Also, the verses I gave you about what the Church says about Mary, you have not replied. I have to use the Catechism becuase those are the teachings of the Church and without them, I cannot show you in comparison with the Bible how the two relate to each other. If you cannot reply to the reasons and prove I give you about Church teachings, then how are you going to have a debate if you don't know the otherside to prepare for a rebuttal?

God...was in the food they ate, in the water they drank, in the air they breathed, in the earth they trod and died on, in the words they spoke, in the sleep they slept, and in the dreams they dreamt in the everywhere and everything. ~Albert Wendt Some Pacific cultures don't even have a name for God because God is already assumed. God is so present that there is no need for a term because God is life itself. ~Anne Wilson Schaef

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KJV replies:
I did reply to: God...was in the food they ate, in the water they drank, in the air they breathed, in the earth they trod and died on, in the words they spoke, in the sleep they slept, and in the dreams they dreamt in the everywhere and everything. ~Albert Wendt Some Pacific cultures don't even have a name for God because God is already assumed. God is so present that there is no need for a term because God is life itself. ~Anne Wilson Schaef
I think I said that it was not sound scripture doctrine and that it sounded like Bahi religion and I now add New Age religion also.

If this is not a rebuttal what is? I may have missed something in my rebuttal but I do know the otherside well enough to rebuke it scripturally?
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willyah
 
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Their words are addressed to God, if that isn't prayer I don't know what is. But saying or praying is not the point. They are saying the same thing day and night. That requires repetition. There is no way around it.

There is good repetition that is pleasing to God, and vain repetition which is a waste of time. Non-Catholics pray, Catholics say prayers. One type of prayer is not inferior to the other.

There is a way around it.You are incorrect.How are they praying if they are right there with God at His throne?

Isaiah 6:1, 2
6 In the year that King Uz·zi′ah died, I saw Jehovah sitting on a lofty and elevated throne,and the skirts of his robe filled the temple. 2 Seraphs were standing above him; each had six wings. Each covered his face with two and covered his feet with two, and each of them would fly about with two.

Now read the passage you use as a reference Revelation 4:8.

8
As for the four living creatures, each one of them had six wings; they were full of eyes all around and underneath.And continuously, day and night, they say: “Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is coming.”

So these angels are present with God beside His throne saying Holy Holy Holy,three times to emphasize God's power and holiness like I mentioned before.The evidence is all here for anyone to look at.All one has to do is read and study it thoroughly.

Your understanding of this passage is incorrect.These Seraphs saying holy holy holy three times does not back up your own interpretation of what Rev 4:8 means.It has absolutely nothing at all to do with prayer.So your repetition theory is rendered null and void.
 
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Dude, you’re cracking me up here…people here, tell me I am not the only one who sees the irony in this interpretation.


Okay...serious here…so to me, you are saying, in your bible interpretation tradition, the context of this verse is meant to be understood numerologically, i.e., based on God symbols (aka semiology…you a Dan Brown fan perchance?). Why is this verse interpreted numerologically? And, Does that numerological interpretation hold true for all of, say, Revelations…in that all of Revelations should be understood by God symbols? Because, if so, what does the symbol 144,000 (from Rev. 14) mean in God semiology?

I'm so glad I was able to make you laugh.They say that laughing is good for you and very healthy.It also burns calories.Your welcome.:D

Ok now.As to what you stated,there is much that needs to be learned about God's symbolic language and what numbers mean in the Holy Scriptures.It has nothing to do with any 21st century writer.There is much to explain but if you would like to understand fully please read this to learn about numerals.


"Bible Usage Not Numerology. Since the Bible is a book of both history and prophecy, the numbers given therein may be either literal or symbolic. The context usually reveals in which sense a number is used. Certain numbers appear often in the Bible in an illustrative, figurative, or symbolic sense, and in such cases an understanding of their significance is vital to an understanding of the text. However, this Bible usage of numbers should not be confused with numerology, in which occult mysticism is attached to figures, their combinations, and numerical totals. Numerology apparently had its origin in ancient Babylon and, along with other forms of divination, comes under divine condemnation.—De 18:10-12.

In the following we will discuss a few of the figurative uses of certain numbers that are used prominently in the Bible.

One. This number, when used figuratively, conveys the thought of singleness, uniqueness, as well as unity and agreement in purpose and action. “Jehovah our God is one Jehovah,” said Moses. (De 6:4) He alone is Sovereign. He is unique. He does not share his glory with another, as is the case with pagan trinitarian gods. (Ac 4:24; Re 6:10; Isa 42:8) There is oneness in purpose and activity between Jehovah and Jesus Christ (Joh 10:30) and there should be complete unity of Christ’s disciples with God, with his Son, and with one another. (Joh 17:21; Ga 3:28) Such oneness is illustrated in the marriage arrangement.—Ge 2:24; Mt 19:6; Eph 5:28-32.

Two. The number two frequently appears in a legal setting. Agreement in the accounts of two witnesses adds to the force of the testimony. Two witnesses, or even three, were required to establish a matter before the judges. This principle is also followed in the Christian congregation. (De 17:6; 19:15; Mt 18:16; 2Co 13:1; 1Ti 5:19; Heb 10:28) God adhered to this principle in presenting his Son to the people as mankind’s Savior. Jesus said: “In your own Law it is written, ‘The witness of two men is true.’ I am one that bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me.”—Joh 8:17, 18.

Doing something a second time—for example, repetition of a statement or vision, even in only a parallel way—firmly established the matter as sure and true (as in Pharaoh’s dream of the cows and the ears of grain; Ge 41:32). Biblical Hebrew poetry is full of thought parallelism, which establishes more firmly in mind the truths stated and at the same time clarifies matters by the variety of wording in the parallelism.—See Ps 2, 44, and others.

In Daniel’s prophecy a certain beast’s having “two horns” symbolized duality in rulership of the Medo-Persian Empire.—Da 8:20, 21; compare Re 13:11.

Three. While the testifying of two witnesses to the same matter established proof sufficient for legal action, three made the testimony even stronger. The number three, therefore, is used at times to represent intensity, emphasis, or added strength. “A threefold cord cannot quickly be torn in two.” (Ec 4:12) Emphasis was achieved in Jesus’ threefold questioning of Peter after Peter’s three denials of Jesus. (Mt 26:34, 75; Joh 21:15-17) The vision telling Peter to eat of all kinds of animals, including those unclean according to the Law, was intensified by being given to him three times. This doubtless made it easier for Peter to understand, when Cornelius and his household accepted the good news, that God was now turning his attention to uncircumcised people of the nations, considered unclean by the Jews.—Ac 10:1-16, 28-35, 47, 48.

The intensity of Jehovah’s holiness and cleanness is emphasized by the declaration of heavenly creatures: “Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah.” (Isa 6:3; Re 4:8) Before taking the last earthly king of the line of David off the throne, Jehovah said: “A ruin, a ruin, a ruin I shall make it. As for this also, it will certainly become no one’s until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give it to him.” Here he emphatically showed there would be no Davidic kings sitting upon the throne at Jerusalem in his name—the throne would be absolutely vacant—until God’s time to establish his Messiah in Kingdom power. (Eze 21:27) The intensity of woes to come to those dwelling on earth is forecast by the triple repetition of the declaration “woe.”—Re 8:13.

Four. Four is a number sometimes expressing universalness or foursquareness in symmetry and form. It is found three times at Revelation 7:1. Here the “four angels” (all those in charge of “the four winds,” ready for complete destruction) stood on earth’s “four corners” (they could let loose the winds obliquely or diagonally, and no quarter of the earth would be spared). (Compare Da 8:8; Isa 11:12; Jer 49:36; Zec 2:6; Mt 24:31.) The New Jerusalem is “foursquare,” equal in every dimension, being in fact cubical in shape. (Re 21:16) Other figurative expressions using the number four are found at Zechariah 1:18-21; 6:1-3; Revelation 9:14, 15.

Six. This number at times represents imperfection. The number of “the wild beast” is 666 and is called “a man’s number,” indicating that it has to do with imperfect, fallen man, and it seems to symbolize the imperfection of that which is represented by “the wild beast.” The number six being emphasized to a third degree (the six appearing in the position of units, tens, and hundreds) therefore highlights the imperfection and deficiency of that which the beast represents, or pictures.—Re 13:18.

Seven. Seven is used frequently in the Scriptures to signify completeness. At times it has reference to bringing a work toward completion. Or it can refer to the complete cycle of things as established or allowed by God. By completing his work toward the earth in six creative days and resting on the seventh day, Jehovah set the pattern for the whole Sabbath arrangement, from the seven-day week to the Jubilee year that followed the seven-times-seven–year cycle. (Ex 20:10; Le 25:2, 6, 8) The Festival of Unleavened Bread and the Festival of Booths were each seven days long. (Ex 34:18; Le 23:34) Seven appears often in connection with the Levitical rules for offerings (Le 4:6; 16:14, 19; Nu 28:11) and for cleansings.—Le 14:7, 8, 16, 27, 51; 2Ki 5:10.

The “seven congregations” of Revelation, with their characteristics, give a complete picture of all the congregations of God on earth.—Re 1:20–3:22.

The “seven heads” of the “wild beast” (Re 13:1) show the limit to which the beast would be allowed to develop. Although the “scarlet-colored wild beast” is called “an eighth” king, it springs from the seven and does not exist apart from the seven-headed wild beast (Re 17:3, 9-11), as is true also of the “image” of “the wild beast.” (Re 13:14) Similarly, the two-horned “wild beast” is actually coexistent with the original “wild beast” whose “mark” it tries to put on all persons.—Re 13:11, 16, 17.

Jehovah was long-suffering with Israel but warned them that if, despite his discipline, they ignored him, he would then chastise them “seven times,” thoroughly, for their sins.—Le 26:18, 21, 28.

In historical sections of the Scriptures, seven frequently occurs to denote completeness, or doing a work completely. The Israelites exercised full faith and obedience by marching for seven days around Jericho, encompassing it seven times on the seventh day, after which the city wall collapsed. (Jos 6:2-4, 15) Elijah showed full faith in the efficacy of his prayer to God by commanding his servant up on Mount Carmel to go looking at the sky seven times before a rain cloud appeared. (1Ki 18:42-44) Naaman the leper had to bathe seven times in the Jordan River. He, as a mighty Syrian general, had to display considerable humility to carry out this procedure recommended by the prophet Elisha, but for his obediently doing it, Jehovah cleansed him. (2Ki 5:10, 12) The purity, completeness, perfection, and fineness of Jehovah’s sayings are likened with poetic force and intensity to silver refined in a smelting furnace, clarified seven times. (Ps 12:6) Jehovah’s mercy is magnified by the statement: “The righteous one may fall even seven times, and he will certainly get up.” (Pr 24:16) His deserving all praise is declared by the psalmist: “Seven times in the day I have praised you.”—Ps 119:164.

The book of Revelation abounds with symbolic use of the number seven in connection with the things of God and his congregation, and also the things of God’s Adversary, Satan the Devil, in his all-out fight to oppose God and his people.—Re 1:4, 12, 16; 5:1, 6; 8:2; 10:3; 12:3; 13:1; 15:1, 7; 17:3, 10; and other texts.

Multiples of seven are used in a similar sense of completeness. Seventy (ten times seven) is employed prophetically in the “seventy weeks” of Daniel’s prophecy dealing with Messiah’s coming. (Da 9:24-27; see SEVENTY WEEKS.) Jerusalem and Judah lay desolate 70 years, because of disobedience to God, “until the land had paid off [completely] its sabbaths.”—2Ch 36:21; Jer 25:11; 29:10; Da 9:2; Zec 1:12; 7:5.

Seventy-seven, a repetition of seven in a number, was equivalent to saying “indefinitely” or “without limit.” Jesus counsels Christians to forgive their brothers to that extent. (Mt 18:21, 22) Since God had ruled that anyone killing Cain, the murderer, must “suffer vengeance seven times,” Lamech, who apparently killed a man in self-defense, said: “If seven times Cain is to be avenged, then Lamech seventy times and seven.”—Ge 4:15, 23, 24.

Eight. The number eight was also used to add emphasis to the completeness of something (one more than seven, the number generally used for completeness), thus sometimes representing abundance. Jehovah reassured his people of deliverance from the threat of Assyria, saying that there should be raised up against the Assyrian “seven shepherds, yes, [not merely seven, but] eight dukes of mankind.” (Mic 5:5) As a fitting climax to the final festival of the sacred year, the Festival of Booths, the eighth day was to be one of holy convention, solemn assembly, a day of complete rest.—Le 23:36, 39; Nu 29:35.

Ten. Ten is a number denoting fullness, entirety, the aggregate, the sum of all that exists of something. It may be noted also that, where the numbers seven and ten are used together, the seven represents that which is higher or superior and ten represents something of a subordinate nature.

The Ten Plagues poured upon Egypt fully expressed God’s judgments upon Egypt—all that were needed to humiliate fully the false gods of Egypt and to break the hold of Egypt upon God’s people Israel. The “Ten Words” formed the basic laws of the Law covenant, the approximately 600 other laws merely enlarging on these, elucidating them, and explaining their application. (Ex 20:3-17; 34:28) Jesus used the number ten in several of his illustrations to denote entirety or the full number of something.—Mt 25:1; Lu 15:8; 19:13, 16, 17.

One of the beasts of Daniel’s vision and certain beasts described in Revelation had ten horns. These evidently represented all the powers, or “kings,” of earth making up the beastly arrangement. (Da 7:7, 20, 24; Re 12:3; 13:1; 17:3, 7, 12) The fullness of the test or period of test that God determines for his servants or allows them to undergo is expressed at Revelation 2:10: “Do not be afraid of the things you are about to suffer. Look! The Devil will keep on throwing some of you into prison that you may be fully put to the test, and that you may have tribulation ten days.”

Twelve. The patriarch Jacob had 12 sons, who became the foundations of the 12 tribes of Israel. Their offspring were organized by God under the Law covenant as God’s nation. Twelve therefore seems to represent a complete, balanced, divinely constituted arrangement. (Ge 35:22; 49:28) Jehovah chose 12 apostles, who form the secondary foundations of the New Jerusalem, built upon Jesus Christ. (Mt 10:2-4; Re 21:14) There are 12 tribes of “the sons of [spiritual] Israel,” each tribe consisting of 12,000 members.—Re 7:4-8.

Multiples of 12 are also sometimes significant. David established 24 divisions of the priesthood to serve by turn in the temple later built by Solomon. (1Ch 24:1-18) This assists in identifying the “twenty-four elders” who were seated round about God’s throne in white outer garments and who were wearing crowns. (Re 4:4) The footstep followers of Jesus Christ, his spiritual brothers, are promised kingship and priesthood with him in the heavens. These elders could not be only the apostles, who numbered just 12. They therefore evidently represent the entire body of the “royal priesthood,” the 144,000 (as represented in the 24 priestly divisions serving at the temple) in their positions in the heavens, as crowned kings and priests.—1Pe 2:9; Re 7:4-8; 20:6.

Forty. In a few instances periods of judgment or punishment seem to be associated with the number 40. (Ge 7:4; Eze 29:11, 12) Nineveh was given 40 days to repent. (Jon 3:4) Another use of the number 40 points out a parallel in the life of Jesus Christ with that of Moses, who typified Christ. Both of these men experienced 40-day periods of fasting.—Ex 24:18; 34:28; De 9:9, 11; Mt 4:1, 2.


Number, Numeral — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
 
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