Mary mother of God

[Unveiled Artist]

It's okay. I still am very attached to the Church because of the sacraments. I also like how the Church says once you are a Catholic (imho have a relationship with Christ) you will always have a relationship with Him. They say, many people walk away but (as many Christians optimistically assume) and eventually, they come back to God.

I like talking about God because the way I learned about Him was through Galations 2:20 which says "I have been crucified In Christ. The life I no longer live, I live not for myself, but for the Son of God." For some reason "Crucified In Christ" let me think, it's not that we (in my opinion) have to mirror Christ, we have to die on the Cross (sacrifice what we most cherish--fast) to not only build a Christian to build a relationship with Him but with his brothers and sisters as well. The only way we can do that is to literally put ourselves in Christ's shoes.

So, basically, you are walking with the mind-set of giving yourself up for other people in order to live as Christ lived who did the same till His death. I also believe that's what the apostles meant when they said follow Christ rather than the Law. I like the Church because during confession, you are literally being cleansed (not by the priest) in mind and body of what broke your union with God. You are putting yourself back into the mind-set of Christ to continue to do as I mentioned above.

The sacrament of Baptism is a double-wammy, because not only are you cleans of your sins... you are born again to take a vow of being devoted to Christ. (Born-again)

Confirmation was saying to the whole Church "I want you Jesus Christ to be my Lord and Savior" and the Eucharist made everything connect because you're literally siting at His table with His apostles to take of Him both in spirit and in flesh.
--
What brought me away from the Church is the trinity, actually. I felt that if I did not believe Christ is God, then how can I have fellowship with members who believe He is? Then I thought, I can use Christ to make myself feel better in many ways so that I be in union with God (life) in my signature; but, the full devotion during Mass is always centered around Christ not His Father. I did it backwards. I learned about Christ through His Father, rather than Father through Christ.

I also realize I had more of a theological and conceptual belief in God. One priest told us "God is not a concept. He is not an idea. You cannot have a relationship with a concept or an idea." That's when I realized the idea of God is different than knowing Him as a person.

It's interesting how our we grow spiritually. We find our way and the way that is supported by our family, our Creator, and/or anyone/thing we hold as a foundation.

Thank you. I appreciate that.

Here is my opinion on what you said. Please don't take it as an offense.

When you are a part of the Church, you are a part of Scripture. You are part of Christ's Body not man. Once you start seeing outside of the Church (Outside of Christ and scripture), you compare and contrast "what is the true teaching; what does scripture say; and so forth" you forget that the teachings are not just in scripture, they are also in Christ's Body too.

In Acts, the gentiles didn't shove the apostles aside (as protestants are doing with priests) and say "hand me the Hebrew scriptures instead" (or Bible), they listened to the apostles as well as kept their traditions (Paul said keep your traditions). It is a combination of how one devotes oneself to Christ with the Body and with Christ Himself. There is no Christ without His Body. (and yes, that is in scripture-where there is more than one, I am there)

Christianity is not a solitary faith. Regardless the denomination, Christ wants Christians to be together. The Catholic Church mirrors His teachings just as Baptist, Lutheran, and Pentecostals do.

Where was I,

I have never been a Bible Only person even if I returned to the Church. If everything Christ said about life is in the Bible, a lot of things would not exist. Its best the read the Bible in context. I could never follow the Bible if I did literal only because many of my issues are not in the Bible. Gosh, if everything about us and life was in the Bible, that book would be pretty thick.

God could not have put all about life in the Bible. So, to say you will not believe in anything unless it's literally in the Bible confuses me....you're taking a lot about what God taught in your life out the window because it is not written in the leather bound book you own.

I don't understand that at all. Though, I had this discussion with another person in RF... so I don't want to re-invent the wheel.

Thank you Carlita for taking the time to explain your position. I appreciate that. I assumed that when you said you left the catholic church, you joined some non denominational christian group. I see I was very wrong about that. I apologize for my assumption. Yes, it seems we are about as far removed in our beliefs as two people can be. I wish you the best, my friend. Take care.[/QUOTE]

 

[katiemygirl]

woah...when did that happen?
Catholics do not believe Mary is divine, and the church has never said she is. If you believe so, it is a misunderstanding on your part.

The following is very difficult to misunderstand. It is just one of many similar quotes.

This very clearly show Mary being elevated to mediator and redeemer status.

Pope Leo XIII: “The recourse we have to Mary in prayer follows upon the office she continuously fills by the side of the throne of God as Mediatrix of Divine grace; being by worthiness and by merit most acceptable to Him, and, therefore, surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven. Now, this merciful office of hers, perhaps, appears in no other form of prayer so manifestly as it does in the Rosary. For in the Rosary all the part that Mary took as our co-Redemptress comes to us, as it were, set forth, and in such wise as though the facts were even then taking place; and this with much profit to our piety, whether in the contemplation of the succeeding sacred mysteries, or in the prayers which we speak and repeat with the lips.” (Iucunda Semper Expectatione, n. 2)

 

[chlotilde]

The following is very difficult to misunderstand. It is just one of many similar quotes.

This very clearly show Mary being elevated to mediator and redeemer status.

I understand why you think that, but... In many ways, Catholics speak a different language. When learning what other Christians think, their language confused me at first...but then again, American English is based more on protestant lingo than catholic lingo. I would beg you to look up what a mediator means. It is a middle man (if it is middle, how can that be top dog?). When a Catholic prays the rosary...they say "Holy Mary, full of grace, pray for us sinners". It is a plead to a holy person (as in, one who walks with god...literally in Mary's case....but God asks us all to be holy) to pray with us. And the catholic views this as no different than anyone saying on say a FB post..."prayers needed, my (insert name) is on the hospital."

 

[kepha31]

The following is very difficult to misunderstand. It is just one of many similar quotes.

This very clearly show Mary being elevated to mediator and redeemer status.

No, it doesn't.

Pope Leo XIII: “The recourse we have to Mary in prayer follows upon the office she continuously fills by the side of the throne of God as Mediatrix of Divine grace; being by worthiness and by merit most acceptable to Him, and, therefore, surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven. Now, this merciful office of hers, perhaps, appears in no other form of prayer so manifestly as it does in the Rosary. For in the Rosary all the part that Mary took as our co-Redemptress comes to us, as it were, set forth, and in such wise as though the facts were even then taking place; and this with much profit to our piety, whether in the contemplation of the succeeding sacred mysteries, or in the prayers which we speak and repeat with the lips.” (Iucunda Semper Expectatione, n. 2)

"co" does not mean "equal to".
A "co"pilot is not equal in rank to the captain.
A "co"administrator is not equal to the administrator.

"Co" in co-redeemer, co-Mediatrix, etc. is Collaborator. Mary "assisted" in our redemption and she assists in our mediation with Christ.

This context does not give Mary equal status with Christ, or usurp Christ in anyway. She, rather, merely cooperated and collaborated with Christ.

In a sense we, too, are co-mediators every time we pray for someone. We are offering intercession/mediation for our friend when we pray for them. This does not make us God or equal with God, it only means that we are cooperating with the economy of God when he asked us to be a family and pray for each other.

In terms of Mary as co-redeemer, she did in fact, cooperate in the redemption. When she made her fiat to accept God's will for her to bear the Christ Child she was cooperating in the redemption of mankind for it was through her that the Redeemer came into the world.

The solution to problems like this is not suppression but education. "co" just simply does NOT mean "equal to".

Co-redeemer/mediatrix are not dogmatic titles. Even it were to happen, it won't bother anyone who understands the meaning of "co" in the proper context.

 

[katiemygirl]

="chlotilde, post: 4169224, member: 1127"] . I would beg you to look up what a mediator means. It is a middle man (if it is middle, how can that be top dog?).

A mediator is a go-between, who works with opposing sides in order to bring about a settlement.

God has a dispute with us because of our sin. God hates sin, and sin stands between all of us and Him.

Jesus, as mediator, resolves our dispute with God, which is sin.

The idea that Mary is a co-mediatrix contradicts 1 Timothy 2:5, which says, “For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus.”

With all due respect, I would ask you to consider God's word, which says ONE God, ONE mediator.

Jesus is the ONE mediator because He is the sinless Son of God. Mary was not sinless. No Scripture says such a thing. This dogma was accepted as a result of papal proclamation.

When a Catholic prays the rosary...they say "Holy Mary, full of grace, pray for us sinners". It is a plead to a holy person (as in, one who walks with god...literally in Mary's case....but God asks us all to be holy) to pray with us. And the catholic views this as no different than anyone saying on say a FB post..."prayers needed, my (insert name) is on the hospital."

We, nor Mary, have the power to resolve our dispute with God. God hates sin and cannot look upon it. Jesus, our mediator, is our lawyer, so to speak. It is He and He alone who can bring about a settlement.

God tells us to pray for one another. Not once did He tell us to direct our prayers to His Mother. Nor did He ever appoint us mediators in any sense of the word.

Mary "assisted" in our redemption and she assists in our mediation with Christ.

This is about as unScriptural as anything I have ever read. It is blasphemy. It's heresy!

Did Mary shed her blood so that our sins would be forgiven?

This context does not give Mary equal status with Christ, or usurp Christ in anyway. She, rather, merely cooperated and collaborated with Christ.

Where is this in the Scriptures?

In a sense we, too, are co-mediators every time we pray for someone. We are offering intercession/mediation for our friend when we pray for them. This does not make us God or equal with God, it only means that we are cooperating with the economy of God when he asked us to be a family and pray for each other.

It is you who does not understand the term mediator. When we pray for others, we are asking God, through Jesus our ONE mediator to help our friend. We are not resolving a dispute.

In terms of Mary as co-redeemer, she did in fact, cooperate in the redemption. When she made her fiat to accept God's will for her to bear the Christ Child she was cooperating in the redemption of mankind for it was through her that the Redeemer came into the world.

UnScriptural!

The solution to problems like this
is not suppression but education. "co" just simply does NOT mean "equal to".

Yes it does mean equal. If the pilot dies of a heart attack during flight, the co-pilot is equally qualified to fly the plane.

Regardless, you stated that Mary is a mediator. That put Mary in an equal, side by side position with Jesus.

Co-redeemer/mediatrix are not dogmatic titles. Even it were to happen, it won't bother anyone who understands the meaning of "co" in the proper context.

It should bother everyone because it goes beyond what is written. 1 Cor. 4:6

 

[katiemygirl]

="kepha31, post: 4169238, member: 30332"]
"co" does not mean "equal to".
A "co"pilot is not equal in rank to the captain.
A "co"administrator is not equal to the administrator.

I see you and Chlotilde copied and pasted from the same website. I would appreciate you both using your own words.

The idea that Mary is a co-mediatrix contradicts 1 Timothy 2:5, which says, “For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus.”

What part of ONE God and ONE mediator don't you get? Doesn't it bother you to contradict the word of God.

"Co" in co-redeemer, co-Mediatrix, etc. is Collaborator. Mary "assisted" in our redemption and she assists in our mediation with Christ.

Clean it up any way you want, it is unScriptural. There is only ONE mediator.

This context does not give Mary equal status with Christ, or usurp Christ in anyway. She, rather, merely cooperated and collaborated with Christ.

UnScriptural!

In a sense we, too, are co-mediators every time we pray for someone. We are offering intercession/mediation for our friend when we pray for them. This does not make us God or equal with God, it only means that we are cooperating with the economy of God when he asked us to be a family and pray for each other.

You do not understand the term mediator. When we pray for others, we are asking God, through Jesus our ONE mediator to help our friend. We are not resolving a dispute, which is what a mediator does.

A mediator is a go-between, who works with opposing sides in order to bring about a settlement.

God has a dispute with us because of our sin. God hates sin, and sin stands between all of us and Him.

Jesus, as mediator, resolves our dispute with God, which is sin.

In terms of Mary as co-redeemer, she did in fact, cooperate in the redemption. When she made her fiat to accept God's will for her to bear the Christ Child she was cooperating in the redemption of mankind for it was through her that the Redeemer came into the world.

UnScriptural!

The solution to problems like this is not suppression but education. "co" just simply does NOT mean "equal to".

Yes it does mean equal. If the pilot dies of a heart attack during flight, the co-pilot is equally qualified to fly the plane.

Regardless, you stated that Mary is a mediator. That puts Mary in an equally qualified, side by side position with Jesus, which she is not.

Co-redeemer/mediatrix are not dogmatic titles. Even it were to happen, it won't bother anyone who understands the meaning of "co" in the proper context.

It should bother everyone because it goes beyond what is written. 1 Cor. 4:6

 

[Unification]

Simply put, and ridding of all of these waste of time arguments amongst sects and religions .. there is no such thing as the literal Virgin Mary. When our hearts are circumsised, the Christ seed grows within us too. When our bodies become virgins. It's all thoughtout the OT, the woman giving birth to the saving manchild. If Christ is IN us, we must have been a virgin giving birth too to the Christ. Whether we are a guy or a girl. The book of Matthew depicts the story of Joseph, and his wife(body/heart) giving birth to the Christ. At the end of Matthew, we see a man named Joseph begging for the body of Jesus and becoming a disciple, and the BODY being delivered, (Joseph's old body gone and new body in Christ)... His own new tomb(body) which he had hewn out in the rock(Christ) and rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulcher(heart). Hint- when Christ knocks on the doors of our hearts, we better listen) .... Then at the end of the sabbath, as it began to DAWN the first day of week.... (7th day... Entering God's rest.... Who is the bright morning star rising in our hearts? Christ. End of Matthew depicts the Christ arising from the heart (resurrection) of Joseph.

 

[Unification]

Exodus 20:4
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Image of the flesh(beast) is being worshipped. Jesus is IN us spiritually, not a literal fleshly figure. Worse yet, people are worshipping a mother that never existed. My oh my. The Lord is still patient with everyone. Repent. Again, I'm unsure what is worse... Being so naive to put trust in ourselves, vain tradition and vain religion and mankind and just believing whatever we please, or to not put all of your trust into the Lord within to teach.

 

[Ingledsva]

Ingledsva,
The reason the ideas put forth in the terms Theotokos, and Ave Maria, are not correct is; most people who use these terms are praying to Mary, believing that she is the mother of THE God, which she is not.
It is true that Jesus is a god, but not The Almighty God, whose name is, in English, Jehovah. Even though the Bible says that Jesus is a mighty god, Isa 9:6, Jesus is here called El Ghibbor, not El Shaddai, which means The Almighty God, Jehovah in English, and YHWH in Hebrew.
Christians do not use these terms because they are easily used wrongly, because it is to The Almighty God only, that we should pray, Matt 4: 10, Ex 20:2-7.

Of course Jesus isn't God. He didn't teach such, or the trinity idea.

Isaiah 9:6 which is Tanakh, - has NOTHING to do with the NT Jesus.

"The almighty God" is a mistranslation.

The verse is probably talking about Immanuel, Isaiah's son.

Asking those passed-on, to petition God, - is an ancient Hebrew tradition, so, it really doesn't matter if you think it is wrong.

*

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Katiemygirl,

In some countries and even parts of the US, the appearance of people revering Mary looks like worship. When my friend first brought me to the Church and when I start going on my own years later, I see people most from other countries kissing the statues of Mary's feet and in Mass, especially during Easter season, the priest asks teach of the saints to pray for us.

I wasn't raised like that and never read that in the Catechism--as Kepha31 explained (if I understand her correctly?) that being a helper (I'll say rather than co-redeemtrix) in Christian's salvation is that she said yes to the angel who came down and told her she will have a child. She told her Son, she will follow her (can't figure the correct wording), and that lead to her salvation.

Every believer--Mary, Saints, Jesus, and Christians (I wont say all), believe in God the Father. They all believe that Jesus (on Jesus' case, He believed the role He was given) came to save them from their sins to lead a born-again life.

Mary was part of this because she was the Mother of Christ. To say she had no part in a Christian's salvation, is saying that Jesus' family is not important and anti-catholics push her aside as if she was "just a vessel" and nothing more.

Many Christians do respect Mary; and, to a Catholic, mere respect for the Mother of a Savior is like an anti-Catholic saying the Eucharist is symbolism. Both are literal (Eucharist debate aside). Without Mary, Christ would not have been born.

It is the relationship that the Mother had with her Child that makes the Mother so important in a Catholic's worship to Christ. Christianity is a community faith. Everyone works together as brothers and sisters in Christ. Every Christian--Catholics included--looks to Christ for salvation no matter who they pray to for help not salvation.

No person takes the role of Christ in Catholicism. Regardless if they are putting hundred flowers in front of the statue, asking for grace (which is like asking you for your prayers), and so forth, that does not make that person an mediator between him and the person he is revering.

Another way to see it:

For example, say you have three children. God comes down and says, "a new child you will give birth to will be the redeemer of all who believe". So, you say "Okay. I'll do anything you say, God."

You have a child, and you name him, John. If anyone wants to be believe in God, they have to go through John. If I wanted to believe in God, I have to go through John.

What about you? You are the Mother of your child. You're not just any person off the streets. So, I come to you and say "thank you for having a child who is our Savior." and you may say "you're welcome." I may go to John and ask about God. I might go to you and say, "tell me more about your son."

I'm having an inter-dialogue with you, John, and God. I'm not saying, you are your child; that's silly. I am also not talking to you as if God sent you personally to save us; that is silly too. I am just showing a high respect for you as the Mother of our Savior (in this analogy) and I am sure that John and all of John's family would appreciate that you treat their Mother with some sort of respect. Not as if she was just some woman but because she is the Mother of a Christian's Savior.

I think you would understand it more if she was living today. You'd see that my going up to you and asking you about your Child, asking Him as well about Himself, and talking to His Father would not phase you. In many countries, family is very important--Christ family is no exception--if anything, His family should be put up higher than any other Christian's family.

I honestly think its the "talking to the dead" that's throwing your interpretation off. If She was not dead, you would understand her role in your salvation better being that she is the Mother (not just any mother) of both of your Savior.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The Catholic Bible and Catechism agrees with what you said. If you have other evidence, for lack of less crude words, that Catholics worship statues, we (butting in) can debate about that.

Also, a mother who did not exist...do explain?

Exodus 20:4
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Image of the flesh(beast) is being worshipped. Jesus is IN us spiritually, not a literal fleshly figure. Worse yet, people are worshipping a mother that never existed. My oh my. The Lord is still patient with everyone. Repent. Again, I'm unsure what is worse... Being so naive to put trust in ourselves, vain tradition and vain religion and mankind and just believing whatever we please, or to not put all of your trust into the Lord within to teach.

 

[Unification]

The Catholic Bible and Catechism agrees with what you said. If you have other evidence, for lack of less crude words, that Catholics worship statues, we (butting in) can debate about that.

Also, a mother who did not exist...do explain?

Carlita, with much respect.... There is an inner human and an outer human. The inner human knows the Lord is in him and the reason he is alive. The reason he's forgiven, the reason he died to his old self, the reason any good can come from him. Spirit dwelling bodily. The literal eyes see the physical and literal. The spiritual eyes see the inner. Why everyone is so enamored with thinking scripture refers to earthly marriage as opposed to divine marriage in the Lord. Which is of Spirit and body. Husband and wife. Soul and heart inside that spirit and body. The Lord(spirit) is seeking a prudent wife(body) to dwell in...Without spot or blemish(sin). It's easy to see a virgin as being a literal virgin who has slept with no man. The virgin body conceiving is the bright morning star ressurecting in our hearts. The great light. The Christ. Christ is spirit dwelling in flesh. The great mystery of your hope is Christ IN you. God IN you. A spiritual human believes Christ came in the flesh(INSIDE) of him/her as opposed to a physical single fleshly human that came and will come to murder people and set up shop on physical Earth. Well, Christ already has set up shop inside of the earth(body) of saved souls. It's a tragedy everyone waiting externally for a conquering kingdom and dying waiting rather than seeing Him within, where he conquers and reigns in our lives.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I should have put this all in one post, my mistake. Some questions for you, if you don't mind my asking.

1, Where in the Catechism or any document of the Church (not what people practice and whats on tv) does it say Mary "saves us" and she is "our Salvation."?

2. Are you debating about what Catholics do or what the Church teaches?

Comment: When one is a mediator, as you mentioned, that person is between (not over or under) a person who makes a settlement between both parties. Jesus defined as a mediator is correct.

Here is what the Church (catechism) teaches about Mary:

963 Since the Virgin Mary's role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer (Not the redeemer Himself) . . . She is 'clearly the mother of the members of Christ' (This is by technicality. Christ is the Savior of Christians. They are all members of Christ. Since many cultures do not separate family members, His Mother has an important role just as Her son. She is considered--play on words here--the Mother of members of Christ because she is the Mother of your Savior. Hard to explain it more clearly) . . . since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head."502 "Mary, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church."503​

The Church also teaches:

964 Mary's role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it.​

I'm emphasis inseparable because the Mother and the Child biologically, psychologically, and spiritually are always one. That's the role of being a mother, regardless if its in religious context.

"This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death";504 it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion:
​

Because the Mother and Son are One just as any other believer, she is by default part (Mother/Child relationship) of our salvation. It is the wording that throws it off. No Catholic says Mary has saved them.)

971 "All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."515 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."516 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.517
​

Here is where it gets tricky. In no way, I am trying to offend Catholic doctrine; but, you are somewhat right in the importance they give to Mary. I also see a misreading because mostly its by experience and participation of the Church in how a Catholic's relationship with Mary differs than that of Christ.

The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion....This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."516
​

From first hand experience and witness, the devotion between a Catholic and Mary are very very different than the devotion they have for Christ. If Mary had the same devotion to Christ, Mary would be in every Mass. In reality, only Christ and His Father is there and the Holy Spirit fills all of His Body to those who believe in Him.

That is why the Catechism separates devotion from adoration. I am devoted to my mother but I will never adore her as if she were a Creator.

You must remember that Catholicism is not a Sola Scriptura faith. Many documents by different popes, scholars, in addition to and not in replace of scripture are part of the teachings of the Church.

Try try to see the Catholic Church in protestant eyes is nearly impossible. We view things within our own lens. If we can admit that, that is cool. Debating is cool too. Please don't imply that a Catholic is less Christian by how the Church devotes itself to Christ.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I think the earthly view of marriage is important in the spiritual view because they both go hand in hand. When one is married with God's blessings, they are allowed to consemate their love. They not only do this in spirit (I guess look at each across the table), they do so edit physically.

I see it the same as Mary. She not only has a spiritual or inner role in a Christian's life, without her actual existence, there'd be lacking a physical or outer role. They go together.

To make everything spiritual is denying that anything on earth that God created has any value at all. Everything you said makes sense, I just wouldn't dismiss the earthly view because both are needed (consummation of marriage) in order for the whole thing to be real.

There are a lot of physical/spiritual examples in the Bible:

1. Lord's Supper. Jesus not only said to His followers to believe in Him is to believe in His Father... He also "consummated" that union with the bread/wine they shared at His table.

2. Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection: This should be a given. Jesus actually existed, as what His disciples wrote, actually said He was the redeemer, physically was tortured and crucified. What's more, His physical body was not there in the tomb when they opened it three days later. His body and spirit (not just spirit) went back to His Father.

3. OT Has many examples, especially in Levitcus (whole book, actually), of what materials one must have, measurements for building altars, homes, and so forth as commanded by God. Wars were fought by His command. Lands taken over. Odviously there is a physical connection between God's command, what He wanted spiritually from His people, and what they did for Him. Physical as in--actual wars not invisible or spiritual ones, real sacrifices by lamb and other animal, real blood on the doors of believers for protection, and so on.

I honestly dislike when a believer separates the earth from the spiritual as if the two have no connection. I personally believe everything and everyone on earth is spiritual--its how we apply or associate with people and things in our life that matters whether it changes or life or like a cell phone, just lets us make a phone call instead.

Carlita, with much respect.... There is an inner human and an outer human. The inner human knows the Lord is in him and the reason he is alive. The reason he's forgiven, the reason he died to his old self, the reason any good can come from him. Spirit dwelling bodily. The literal eyes see the physical and literal. The spiritual eyes see the inner. Why everyone is so enamored with thinking scripture refers to earthly marriage as opposed to divine marriage in the Lord. Which is of Spirit and body. Husband and wife. Soul and heart inside that spirit and body. The Lord(spirit) is seeking a prudent wife(body) to dwell in...Without spot or blemish(sin). It's easy to see a virgin as being a literal virgin who has slept with no man. The virgin body conceiving is the bright morning star ressurecting in our hearts. The great light. The Christ. Christ is spirit dwelling in flesh. The great mystery of your hope is Christ IN you. God IN you. A spiritual human believes Christ came in the flesh(INSIDE) of him/her as opposed to a physical single fleshly human that came and will come to murder people and set up shop on physical Earth. Well, Christ already has set up shop inside of the earth(body) of saved souls. It's a tragedy everyone waiting externally for a conquering kingdom and dying waiting rather than seeing Him within, where he conquers and reigns in our lives.

 

[Unification]

I think the earthly view of marriage is important in the spiritual view because they both go hand in hand. When one is married with God's blessings, they are allowed to consemate their love. They not only do this in spirit (I guess look at each across the table), they do so spiritually.

I see it the same as Mary. She not only has a spiritual or inner role in a Christian's life, without her actual existence, there'd be lacking a physical or outer role. They go together.

To make everything spiritual is denying that anything on earth that God created has any value at all. Everything you said makes sense, I just wouldn't dismiss the earthly view because both are needed (consolation of marriage) in order for the whole thing to be real.

There are a lot of physical/spiritual examples in the Bible:

1. Lord's Supper. Jesus not only said to His followers to believe in Him is to believe in His Father... He also "consummated" that union with the bread/wine they shared at His table.

2. Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection: This should be a given. Jesus actually existed, as what His disciples wrote, actually said He was the redeemer, physically was tortured and crucified. What's more, His physical body was not there in the tomb when they opened it three days later. His body and spirit (not just spirit) went back to His Father.

3. OT Has many examples, especially in Levitcus (whole book, actually), of what materials one must have, measurements for building altars, homes, and so forth as commanded by God. Wars were fought by His command. Lands taken over. Odviously there is a physical connection between God's command, what He wanted spiritually from His people, and what they did for Him. Physical as in--actual wars not invisible or spiritual ones, real sacrifices by lamb and other animal, real blood on the doors of believers for protection, and so on.

I honestly dislike when a believer separates the earth from the spiritual as if the two have no connection. I personally believe everything and everyone on earth is spiritual--its how we apply or associate with people and things in our life that matters whether it changes or life or like a cell phone, just lets us make a phone call instead.

I absolutely agree. When a guy who is spiritually joined to the Lord marries a girl who is spiritually joined to the Lord, it's beautiful. There is no doubt humans' who are truly spiritually joined to the Lord, find great favor and blessings poured out. Scripture refers to spiritual marriage, however. For one to experience God or anything external, it all has to be transformed internal first. True love, peace, bliss, etc. In all pure and genuine heart. That's where the experience is and derives from. The inner and spiritual man can only experience anything of any means by what's inside of him/her.

As for the spiritual, the altar and the houses built for the Lord were all supposed to be within. Still are. The animal sacrifices representing the carnality of man sacrificed. In Isaiah the Lord makes it clear. Killing literal animals were an abomination to the Lord. In Malachi he speaks of people offering blind and lame animals.... They were offering him their altar of sin within them in other words. Why in the NT we see the Lord healing the blind and the lame (sin). He wanted them to sacrifice their carnal and fleshly and beastly ways. The wars occurring were of a human battling internally with the Lord. The Lord reigning and destroying our own created kingdoms of sin inside of us.
Many blessings, Carlita.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Thank you. I see what you're saying. I'd just think in general, it's premature to consider the physical aspects in scripture only have spiritual significance.... basically, by passing the actual altar and associating it with a spiritual concept.

Then again, I am a Pagan, for a really bad lack of appropriate words; so, physical items in themselves can be used for spiritual purposes rather than or not just physical items are metaphors for spiritual purposes.

Many blessings too...I should get something to eat instead of be on here all day.

I absolutely agree. When a guy who is spiritually joined to the Lord marries a girl who is spiritually joined to the Lord, it's beautiful. There is no doubt humans' who are truly spiritually joined to the Lord, find great favor and blessings poured out. Scripture refers to spiritual marriage, however. For one to experience God or anything external, it all has to be transformed internal first. True love, peace, bliss, etc. In all pure and genuine heart. That's where the experience is and derives from. The inner and spiritual man can only experience anything of any means by what's inside of him/her.

As for the spiritual, the altar and the houses built for the Lord were all supposed to be within. Still are. The animal sacrifices representing the carnality of man sacrificed. In Isaiah the Lord makes it clear. Killing literal animals were an abomination to the Lord. In Malachi he speaks of people offering blind and lame animals.... They were offering him their altar of sin within them in other words. Why in the NT we see the Lord healing the blind and the lame (sin). He wanted them to sacrifice their carnal and fleshly and beastly ways. The wars occurring were of a human battling internally with the Lord. The Lord reigning and destroying our own created kingdoms of sin inside of us.
Many blessings, Carlita.

 

[chlotilde]

Jesus, as mediator, resolves our dispute with God, which is sin.

So does this mean you believe Jesus and God are not the same being? (just trying to figure out what you mean by what you are saying)

 

[chlotilde]

Regardless, you stated that Mary is a mediator. That put Mary in an equal, side by side position with Jesus.

only by your definition of the word...we choose a different meaning than the one you seem to want us to use. To me a mediator is not a God.

 

[katiemygirl]

So does this mean you believe Jesus and God are not the same being? (just trying to figure out what you mean by what you are saying)

Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God. Each is a distinct person, and each has a role. The role of Jesus is mediator. He is the go-between for us and the Father.

 

[chlotilde]

Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God. Each is a distinct person, and each has a role. The role of Jesus is mediator. He is the go-between for us and the Father.

So if each is distinct, then you believe in 3 Gods (not 1)? And does Jesus mediate in everything...as in, we must always go to Jesus first and then he takes our message to the Father (because we can't go to the Father ourself?)? Just wondering. Because where as you see the Catholic giving undue exaltation to Mary, I see you demoting Jesus to a rather ordinary middleman position.