Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Before I really comment, in order to have a debate both sides present material he (not the other side) feels will strengthen his point. Likewise, I cannot tell you (and you me) what material to use to prove our point. Since we are talking about Catholicism, we need not only scripture but the teachings of the Church as well.
Remember, Catholicism is not a sola scriptura faith. You're debating as if it is. So, I'll try to post scripture to the best of my memory. Since we are talking about Catholicism, I will post from the catechism as well.
Actually, according to scripture (and my mistake in wording), Jesus didn't talk to the dead. The "dead" he was talking to were the spirits of his disciples alive in heaven. (Mathew 17:17) If they were "dead" in the way we know the world, Jesus would be talking to Himself. No one is dead. Scripture says you can be dead in your sins. (Ephesians 2:1)
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Catholics do believe in One Mediator:
Catechism:
Mary is no where in this and in the rest of the Book referring to Christ being Savior.
You said: "With all due respect, I would ask you to consider God's word, which says ONE God, ONE mediator." (45)
There are many mediators. There is only One between you and God that is for your salvation. Every other mediator, You, me, John, Mary, Jospeh, Moses, are all mediators but we have no role in anyone's salvation--we are not Christ and we are mediators. As simple as I can make it. Many mothers, one Mother. Many fathers, one Father. This doesn't need scripture. It's just grammatically and contextually correct according to the English Language.
Poster: "[Mary], rather, merely cooperated and collaborated with Christ." in our salvation. (You asked where is that in scripture)
"I am the Lord's servant," Mary answered. "May your word to me be fulfilled." Then the angel left her." Luke 1:38
Without Mary, there would be no human Christ. Without Mary, there is no crucifixion. Without Mary, no resurrection. No mother no Child.
It is a play on words nothing more. Jesus had a Mother. Mother and Son are One flesh. Makes her a co-redeemer (playing with the grammar) AND She did not shed blood for any Christian. Christ shed blood for her.
The Catechism says:
963 Since the Virgin Mary's role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer.
Meaning, the Virgin Mary was the Mother of Christ. In simple terms. I don't need scripture for you to know that. The Church does not make Mary a Savior.
You posted: "Regardless, you stated that Mary is a mediator. That put Mary in an equal, side by side position with Jesus."
Where in the Catechism and Bible does it say Mary sits at the right hand or left hand of Her Father?
If you are proving something against the Church, you need to provide statements or doctrines not opinions or speeches that Mary IS a redeemer of some sort. You need Catholic doctrines to prove your point.
You posted: "When you say Mary is a mediator, that makes two mediators. That is a direct contradiction to what the Scripture says."
No Catholic is saying Mary is a Mediator (your definition) between you and God. In other words, no one is saying Mary saves you. Where did you get that from?
Repeating what Kepha said: ""Co" mediator is simple English. It does not mean "sole Mediator".
Co-mediator is what I described above and my other posts. You cannot separate a mother from her child. You can see the direct relationship Mary had with Jesus even the little parts of trying to find Him while he was preaching in the temple at a young age.
Luke 2:41-52
Read posts 69 (I mean all the scripture, don't glimpse over it)
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Katiemygirl,
You Cannot get around it. If you want to talk about Catholicism you have to listen to and post Catholic doctrine to prove your side true and our side false.
It's like arguing over Quran scripture using the Bible.
Remember, Catholicism is not a sola scriptura faith. You're debating as if it is. So, I'll try to post scripture to the best of my memory. Since we are talking about Catholicism, I will post from the catechism as well.
Yes, Jesus can communicate with the dead, but hear what God has to say about people who even attempt to talk to the dead.
Actually, according to scripture (and my mistake in wording), Jesus didn't talk to the dead. The "dead" he was talking to were the spirits of his disciples alive in heaven. (Mathew 17:17) If they were "dead" in the way we know the world, Jesus would be talking to Himself. No one is dead. Scripture says you can be dead in your sins. (Ephesians 2:1)
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Catholics do believe in One Mediator:
"For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,..." (1 Tim. 2:5) In their Bible
Catechism:
427 In catechesis “Christ, the Incarnate Word and Son of God,... is taught—everything else is taught with reference to him—and it is Christ alone who teaches—anyone else teaches to the extent that he is Christ’s spokesman, enabling Christ to teach with his lips.... Every catechist should be able to apply to himself the mysterious words of Jesus: ‘My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me.’”16 (2145, 876)
Mary is no where in this and in the rest of the Book referring to Christ being Savior.
You said: "With all due respect, I would ask you to consider God's word, which says ONE God, ONE mediator." (45)
There are many mediators. There is only One between you and God that is for your salvation. Every other mediator, You, me, John, Mary, Jospeh, Moses, are all mediators but we have no role in anyone's salvation--we are not Christ and we are mediators. As simple as I can make it. Many mothers, one Mother. Many fathers, one Father. This doesn't need scripture. It's just grammatically and contextually correct according to the English Language.
Poster: "[Mary], rather, merely cooperated and collaborated with Christ." in our salvation. (You asked where is that in scripture)
"I am the Lord's servant," Mary answered. "May your word to me be fulfilled." Then the angel left her." Luke 1:38
Without Mary, there would be no human Christ. Without Mary, there is no crucifixion. Without Mary, no resurrection. No mother no Child.
It is a play on words nothing more. Jesus had a Mother. Mother and Son are One flesh. Makes her a co-redeemer (playing with the grammar) AND She did not shed blood for any Christian. Christ shed blood for her.
The Catechism says:
963 Since the Virgin Mary's role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer.
Meaning, the Virgin Mary was the Mother of Christ. In simple terms. I don't need scripture for you to know that. The Church does not make Mary a Savior.
You posted: "Regardless, you stated that Mary is a mediator. That put Mary in an equal, side by side position with Jesus."
Where in the Catechism and Bible does it say Mary sits at the right hand or left hand of Her Father?
If you are proving something against the Church, you need to provide statements or doctrines not opinions or speeches that Mary IS a redeemer of some sort. You need Catholic doctrines to prove your point.
You posted: "When you say Mary is a mediator, that makes two mediators. That is a direct contradiction to what the Scripture says."
No Catholic is saying Mary is a Mediator (your definition) between you and God. In other words, no one is saying Mary saves you. Where did you get that from?
Repeating what Kepha said: ""Co" mediator is simple English. It does not mean "sole Mediator".
Co-mediator is what I described above and my other posts. You cannot separate a mother from her child. You can see the direct relationship Mary had with Jesus even the little parts of trying to find Him while he was preaching in the temple at a young age.
Luke 2:41-52
Read posts 69 (I mean all the scripture, don't glimpse over it)
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Katiemygirl,
You Cannot get around it. If you want to talk about Catholicism you have to listen to and post Catholic doctrine to prove your side true and our side false.
It's like arguing over Quran scripture using the Bible.