Mary mother of God

[Unification]

Jesus and all his real teachers, teach--Jesus has a God-his Father.
Catholicism councils created a trinity because the greeks refused to go to a religion with a single being mono God, they added other pagan things as well--this was the foretold great apostasy-2Thess 2:3

Spiritually speaking, the woman and virgin with a manchild is all over the Hebrew Scriptures. Literally, the normal mind views this as a literal female woman. Spiritually, the marriage of husband and wife refers to one individual, with the female being the body of a human. It's the saving seed growing within the body. In the heart/head. Just as Abraham had Sarah, Joseph had Mary. Viewing this as earthly marriage, it would seem like any other earthly Union, but spiritually, it's just Abraham and just Joseph with their circumsision of heart and their literal bodies(bride-wife), giving birth to the saving light/manchild.

 

[catch22]

Wait wait wait. What are we really arguing, here?

If Jesus was God on earth, then Mary (Jesus' mother) is God's mother?

...Really? That's a pretty flimsy position. EDIT: in the sense that we're essentially arguing semantics, more or less. IE: is this worth arguing about?

 

[Ingledsva]

Arguing that a specific term is not in scripture is self defeating, because nowhere in scripture does it say that all doctrines must be explicitly found in scripture to be valid. "Trinity" is not found in scripture either.

Theotokos is the original Greek for God-bearer. The term was a development from the Council of Ephesus in the 4rth century in response to the Nestorian heresy. A more precise definition of the INCARNATION was needed. That was the purpose of "Theotokos", (Mother of God) to defend the Incarnation, not to deify a lowly handmaid.

This heresy about the person of Christ was initiated by Nestorius, bishop of Constantinople, who denied Mary the title of Theotokos (Greek: "God-bearer" or, less literally, "Mother of God"). Nestorius claimed that she only bore Christ’s human nature in her womb, and proposed the alternative title Christotokos ("Christ-bearer" or "Mother of Christ").​

Orthodox Catholic theologians recognized that Nestorius’s theory would fracture Christ into two separate persons (one human and one divine, joined in a sort of loose unity), only one of whom was in her womb. The Church reacted in 431 with the Council of Ephesus, defining that Mary can be properly referred to as the Mother of God, not in the sense that she is older than God or the source of God, but in the sense that the person she carried in her womb was, in fact, God incarnate ("in the flesh").

There is some doubt whether Nestorius himself held the heresy his statements imply, and in this century, the Assyrian Church of the East, historically regarded as a Nestorian church, has signed a fully orthodox joint declaration on Christology with the Catholic Church and rejects Nestorianism. It is now in the process of coming into full ecclesial communion with the Catholic Church.
The Great Heresies | Catholic Answers​

It seems to me many evangelicals fall into the Nestorian trap of dividing Jesus into 2 separate natures. Mothers give birth to persons, not natures. Mary gave birth to a Person: Jesus, who is God. The logic is inescapable.
Mary is the Mother of God.

Except that Jesus wasn't God, wasn't part of a trinity, never said he was of either, etc.

A later church using "Theotokos" does not make it true.

*

 

[katiemygirl]

="Carlita, post: 4146401, member: 55631"]Pray for us sinners--> (Yes, this is the only conflict I see.) My grandma is praying for me in heaven, but the Mother of Christ, naw...she can care less about any Christian? Basically, a Sola Scriptorian is saying that once someone is in heaven, they can careless about the people here on earth.

Now, and to the our of our death-->Catholics are asking Mary to pray for them (as explained above) not just for an hour but for every minute...hoping, like people who pray for each other on earth, she will "give the good word" until they meet Jesus.

Hi Carlita,
With all due respec to you Carlita, we can't possibly know whether our loved ones are in heaven. That is not our call to make. We are not the judge. I know we want our parents, grandparents, children and friends to be in heaven, bit it is not our call to make. That determination is left to God alone.

From my understanding of Scriptures, when people die, they go to a place called hades, the unseen world of the dead. There are two places in hades. One is called Abraham's bosom and the other is called tatarus. When the rich man in Luke 16 died, he went to tatarus, where he was in agony. The poor man, on the other hand, was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom, where he was comforted. There was a chasm between them which could not be crossed over. Only God can determine who will go to which part of hades. His decision will not be based on how good or bad we were in life, but on whether or not we believed He was the Son of God, whether we repented of our sins, whether we were baptized into Him, and whether we walked in the light as He is in the light, in other words, whether we remained faithful to Him to the end.

Praying to dead people is not just a waste of time, it is an insult to God. Why would anyone pray to a human when we can go directly to God, who is the one who answers prayers, through His Son Jesus. Prayer is a form of worship. We should never pray to humans, including the Savior's Mother, Mary. Mary is to be loved, respected and honored, but she should never be worshiped or prayed to.

 

[katiemygirl]

As long as Christianity says Jesus is God, Mother, by technicality, is the Mother of God. She is the Mother of Jesus as a human. She is not the Mother of God the Father.

It is very misleading. Mary was Jesus' human Mother, not his godly Mother.

The RCC has elevated Mary to divine status. This is wrong!

 

[katiemygirl]

Arguing that a specific term is not in scripture is self defeating, because nowhere in scripture does it say that all doctrines must be explicitly found in scripture to be valid. "Trinity" is not found in scripture either.

Theotokos is the original Greek for God-bearer. The term was a development from the Council of Ephesus in the 4rth century in response to the Nestorian heresy. A more precise definition of the INCARNATION was needed. That was the purpose of "Theotokos", (Mother of God) to defend the Incarnation, not to deify a lowly handmaid.

This heresy about the person of Christ was initiated by Nestorius, bishop of Constantinople, who denied Mary the title of Theotokos (Greek: "God-bearer" or, less literally, "Mother of God"). Nestorius claimed that she only bore Christ’s human nature in her womb, and proposed the alternative title Christotokos ("Christ-bearer" or "Mother of Christ").​

Orthodox Catholic theologians recognized that Nestorius’s theory would fracture Christ into two separate persons (one human and one divine, joined in a sort of loose unity), only one of whom was in her womb. The Church reacted in 431 with the Council of Ephesus, defining that Mary can be properly referred to as the Mother of God, not in the sense that she is older than God or the source of God, but in the sense that the person she carried in her womb was, in fact, God incarnate ("in the flesh").

There is some doubt whether Nestorius himself held the heresy his statements imply, and in this century, the Assyrian Church of the East, historically regarded as a Nestorian church, has signed a fully orthodox joint declaration on Christology with the Catholic Church and rejects Nestorianism. It is now in the process of coming into full ecclesial communion with the Catholic Church.
The Great Heresies | Catholic Answers​

It seems to me many evangelicals fall into the Nestorian trap of dividing Jesus into 2 separate natures. Mothers give birth to persons, not natures. Mary gave birth to a Person: Jesus, who is God. The logic is inescapable.
Mary is the Mother of God.

If something is not in Scripture, then it is of man.

Throughout the Bible, we read how men, with their doctrines, invalidate the word of God. When will we ever learn?

I do agree with you that there are many terms thrown around which are not Biblical, though we can see the concepts of some of them. Imho, we should not use those terms. They cause division. Look at the trouble the word "trinity" has caused. Yet the concept is there. I thinks it's best to ditch those terms and speak only where the Bible speaks. Be silent where the Bible is silent.

 

[katiemygirl]

Wait wait wait. What are we really arguing, here?

If Jesus was God on earth, then Mary (Jesus' mother) is God's mother?

...Really? That's a pretty flimsy position. EDIT: in the sense that we're essentially arguing semantics, more or less. IE: is this worth arguing about?

Yes you could say it's semantics, but when you think about it, the phrase is very misleading. If you take a close look at RCC teachings, you will find that they have elevated Mary to a god like status. Some terms in catholic literature describe Mary as Queen of heaven, co-mediatrix, co-advocate, etc. I didn't make this up. It's in their writings.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Christians are all Children of God. They all have the Holy Spirit--hence, they are too, divine. Mary is no different.

In Mary's case, it is by technicality that she is the Mother of God because to many Christians, Christ IS God. For example, I have a divine, spiritual part of me and I have a physical part of me. Both are Me, not one or the other. So my parent will be a parent of me--both my spiritual side and physical. They interconnect.

Likewise with Jesus. Jesus has a spiritual part of Him, the Spirit of His Father and His physical side. That makes up one person--who He is. Mary is the Mother of that One (not two) person. So, by default, she is not just the Mother of His physical body but His spiritual too--they are interconnected (example.. body resurrected with spirit).

She is Divine. She has the Spirit of her Creator in her as well as her Savior. She isn't just some woman off the block. To many Catholics, she is highly "revered" because she is the Mother of Jesus (not of John,Jim, or Albert). She's not just any Mother.

That is absent in anti-catholic religious views. There is virtually no respect for Jesus' family, friends, and followers. I guess they feel if they show some gratitude for their role in Jesus life they feel they are idolizing them. I don't know. In general, that's not idolization.

It is very misleading. Mary was Jesus' human Mother, not his godly Mother.

The RCC has elevated Mary to divine status. This is wrong!

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Thank you for your respect. I have learned something new. I never knew anything about two places where the "dead" go. I know my grandmother is a Christian. Whether she is in heaven or hell, I do not know because that is not my personal belief (her or my belief does not make anything true). I do know that people do not just vanish after we pass. I also know that we have the same personality and faith as we did living. So, my praying to my grandmother is talking to her when she was alive. Actually, that's what I'm doing. I'm talking to my grandmother. There is no difference just because her physical body is gone.

Stemming from what I just said, when I had talk to Jesus to know more about His Father, I did so because I knew He just like my grandmother and everyone else, are alive in spirit. So, I know in someway He heard my prayers.

The huge difference is when any Catholic (I hope) prays to a Saint, they do not replace that Saint with God or Jesus.

Gosh another way to put it. It's similar to saying:

"Katiemygirl, my grandmother has passed away. I don't know what to say because I feel so far from Jesus."

(In this analogy, you may say) "I'm sorry to hear that, is there anything I can do to help?"

Me: "I don't know how to ask Jesus to comfort me through these troubles I'm feeling. I don't know what to say."

You: "I can help you out if you like?"

Me: "Thank you."

I ask if you can pray to Jesus for me while I figure what to say. I ask that you ask Him to bless me and give me strength because it's hard to do so on my own. I am hoping that you will "put in the good word" for me. It is a act of charity not a necessity that you ask God to help me out a bit.

I have the ability to pray on my own, of course. The fact I need help doing so, makes it hard.

If you had passed away, heaven forbid, you have not vanished from thin air. So, my going through the same dialogue and asking you for help will be no different than I ask you now.

In this analogy, I am not putting you over God. I am not bypassing Jesus and saying, "hey katie, can you bless me". In Christianity, that can't be done. I ask you to ask God to bless me. That is what Catholics do when they pray to Saints. That is what they ask when they go to confession. Neither the Saints or father blesses them--only God.

The key is: No one can pray to the dead because there is no dead just spirits who have passed on.

Praying to dead people is not just a waste of time, it is an insult to God. Why would anyone pray to a human when we can go directly to God, who is the one who answers prayers, through His Son Jesus. Prayer is a form of worship. We should never pray to humans, including the Savior's Mother, Mary. Mary is to be loved, respected and honored, but she should never be worshiped or prayed to.

I just missed over this "Mary is to be loved, respected, and honored, but she should never be worshiped or prayed to."

Praying to someone is not worshiping. I don't worship my grandmother by praying to her. That is an insult to her and to her Creator. Many, I won't say all, Catholics feel the same way. You can pray to anyone you want but that does not equal worship. Mary is honored (good word), loved, and respected in prayer and in thought, but she is not worshiped.

EDIT: Sorry, one more thing. Any Catholic can say "Jesus help me out." Sometimes they feel comfortable saying "Mary help me out" not because they dismiss Jesus for Mary..maybe they have a connection with Mary (not the same as Jesus) just like you may talk to one friend about subject X and another about subject Y.

The key is, whoever they pray to, all blessings etc come from God the Father, not Mary, not St. Jude, and not the priest.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Guys, Mary can't be Mother of half of Jesus and not the other half. Jesus is One person not two. Mary is Mother of Jesus (Both spirit/body). To say she is not the Mother of God, is saying Jesus is not God. To many Christians, this is an insult.

 

[katiemygirl]

="Carlita, post: 4167855, member: 55631"]Thank you for your respect. I have learned something new. I never knew anything about two places where the "dead" go.

You can read about it in Luke 16:19-31. Something that stands out to me in this passage is that the beggar was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. But we are not told this about the rich man. When my Mother was dying, I sat with her waiting for her to pass. My Mom was a wonderful christian woman, and if it were up to me, she would have gone straight into the bosom of Abraham, but it wasn't my call to make. As she lay dying (for five days), I prayed to God I would be there when the angels came to carry her away. But as it turned out, she didn't pass until I had left for home.

I read something once that the angels carry christians away in order to protect them from the "prince of the air" who, of course, is Satan. The Bible doesn't say this, but it makes sense to me because our adversary, the devil, is prowling around like a roaring lion. He fights to win us over right to the end.

I know my grandmother is a Christian. Whether she is in heaven or hell, I do not know because that is not my personal belief (her or my belief does not make anything true). I do know that people do not just vanish after we pass. I also know that we have the same personality and faith as we did living. So, my praying to my grandmother is talking to her when she was alive. Actually, that's what I'm doing. I'm talking to my grandmother. There is no difference just because her physical body is gone.

Stemming from what I just said, when I had talk to Jesus to know more about His Father, I did so because I knew He just like my grandmother and everyone else, are alive in spirit. So, I know in someway He heard my prayers.

The huge difference is when any Catholic (I hope) prays to a Saint, they do not replace that Saint with God or Jesus.

No doubt your grandma is in a good place now. I always tell people that if my Mom is not there, no one is. She was truly a good christian woman. She had a lot of faith in God and tried to live by His word. She was a wonderful role model for her children.

I agree with you. We may not see our loved ones, but we know they haven't simply vanished away. Their spirits are very much alive.

Gosh another way to put it. It's similar to saying:
"Katiemygirl, my grandmother has passed away. I don't know what to say because I feel so far from Jesus."

(In this analogy, you may say) "I'm sorry to hear that, is there anything I can do to help?"

Me: "I don't know how to ask Jesus to comfort me through these troubles I'm feeling. I don't know what to say."

You: "I can help you out if you like?"

Me: "Thank you."

I ask if you can pray to Jesus for me while I figure what to say. I ask that you ask Him to bless me and give me strength because it's hard to do so on my own. I am hoping that you will "put in the good word" for me. It is a act of charity not a necessity that you ask God to help me out a bit.

I have the ability to pray on my own, of course. The fact I need help doing so, makes it hard.

Absolutely! God wants us to pray to Him for one another. Please pray for me as I will for you.

If you had passed away, heaven forbid, you have not vanished from thin air. So, my going through the same dialogue and asking you for help will be no different than I ask you now.

In this analogy, I am not putting you over God. I am not bypassing Jesus and saying, "hey katie, can you bless me". In Christianity, that can't be done. I ask you to ask God to bless me. That is what Catholics do when they pray to Saints. That is what they ask when they go to confession. Neither the Saints or father blesses them--only God.

The key is: No one can pray to the dead because there is no dead just spirits who have passed on.

Here is where we differ. Even though our loved ones spirits are alive, this does not mean they can hear us. According to Scripture, the dead know nothing of what's happening here on earth. (Ecc. 9:5)
If you pray to the dead on your behalf, your prayer is falling on deaf ears. They cannot hear you. Whatever your needs are, all we need to do is ask God. He wants nothing more than to provide for His children whom He dearly loves.

As for christians being divine, that cannot be supported with Scripture. We are not in the same spiritual class as God.

 

[kepha31]

Here is where we differ. Even though our loved ones spirits are alive, this does not mean they can hear us. According to Scripture, the dead know nothing of what's happening here on earth. (Ecc. 9:5)

Ecc. 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.
There is nothing in this verse that proves the saints in heaven cannot hear us. It proves those who are spiritually dead know nothing. There are no dead saints in heaven. Being blind and deaf is hardly a heavenly reward.

pray to the dead on your behalf, your prayer is falling on deaf ears. They cannot hear you. Whatever your needs are, all we need to do is ask God. He wants nothing more than to provide for His children whom He dearly loves.

The historic Christian practice of asking our departed brothers and sisters in Christ—the saints—for their intercessionn has come under attack in the last few hundred years. Though the practice dates to the earliest days of Christianity and is shared by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, the other Eastern Christians, and even some Anglicans—meaning that all-told it is shared by more than three quarters of the Christians on earth—it still comes under heavy attack from many within the Protestant movement that started in the sixteenth century.
(in other words, katiegirl, your views are from man made traditions of Luther and Calvin)

Can They Hear Us?
One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

One Mediator
Another charge commonly levelled against asking the saints for their intercession is that this violates the sole mediatorship of Christ, which Paul discusses: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5).

But asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ’s mediatorship, as can be seen from considering the way in which Christ is a mediator. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us. Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because he is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses was the mediator (Greek mesitas) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:19–20).
Praying to the Saints | Catholic Answers​

As for christians being divine, that cannot be supported with Scripture. We are not in the same spiritual class as God.

I think you are very confused about Mary and the saints.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Thank you. We do differ here. I believe spirits who've passed are very active in this life on earth. I have seen them and my family have as well. Maybe in scripture they are called angels or guardian spirits; but, I don't want to put words in the Bible where they do not belong. When you say that they cannot hear you, that is like saying once your family member has gone, they are no longer your family.

I always felt we should connect to our family history and our ancestors, our relatives passed and present. Not as in genealogy wise, though that helps, but develop a personal relationship with them. Through them, that is how we learn more about ourselves and others. That is how we learn about the life around us. Our family-ourselves included--are our foundations to live. We have social groups, work groups, even church groups; and no one is closer to us than those who raised us and are a part of us.

When someone passes, that puts a wall in not only getting to know family but even more so, it tears a part little by little where we come from. I see it happening slowly (either that, or its just my getting older ) and how to deal with it is tough. I know it sounds different to talk to deceased relatives; but, I never saw it that way. I never saw the difference in who they are by whether or not they are present in their physical bodies.

I'm assuming God in scripture does not want a Christian to take his mind away from God when praying to someone else, I'll say. He doesn't want Christians to replace Him for say anything living or passed on. I don't believe the living and deceased have to do with it. It's more where you put your attention to. Jesus said, and I'm paraphrasing from memory, "You must put me above your friend, your family, and honor your Father first." Sorry, crude. Its in the gospels.

I can understand why anti-catholics see Catholics as worshiping Mary and the Saints. I thought the same thing too long before I really became part of the Church first by attendence and three years prior by sacrament. I know it sounds crude, but you really have to be part of the Church (not raised in it but make personal being part of Christ within the Church) to really understand who your peers are praying to and get a feel of when you are praying to Jesus' friends, you are praying to people who are alive. and you know that you are praying to God in the action.

It dawned on me the teachings emphasized at churches here (at least where I live) do not reflect many of the arguments said about the Catholic Church. My guess its when the Second Vatican came and put new teachings within the Church many people, Catholics included, got a little uncomfortable. Mary's ascension is somewhat new and is not in scripture. Her sinlessness was also new (as in not put into the Church tradition until mid 1970s or 80s) and is not in scripture.

I know Catholicism is not sola scriptura. A lot of teachings are not in the Bible; and, they are based on the Bible. I believe anti-Catholics have to accept that fact. This does not make Catholicism non Christian. The Church had a big role on what was considered inspired to be part of the Bible. So, I guess you can say, they defined Christianity (Orthodox Catholic).

--
Christians being divine is just saying that Christians have the Holy Spirit in them; they have part of the Father in them because of Christ. So, like Christ shared in His Father's divinity; so, Christian's share in Christ's divinity.

Here is where we differ. Even though our loved ones spirits are alive, this does not mean they can hear us. According to Scripture, the dead know nothing of what's happening here on earth. (Ecc. 9:5)
If you pray to the dead on your behalf, your prayer is falling on deaf ears. They cannot hear you. Whatever your needs are, all we need to do is ask God. He wants nothing more than to provide for His children whom He dearly loves.

As for christians being divine, that cannot be supported with Scripture. We are not in the same spiritual class as God.

 

[katiemygirl]

"kepha31, post: 4168135, member: 30332"]Ecc. 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.
There is nothing in this verse that proves the saints in heaven cannot hear us. It proves those who are spiritually dead know nothing. There are no dead saints in heaven. Being blind and deaf is hardly a heavenly reward.

This passage is not speaking of the saints in heaven. READ IT! It is speaking about ALL people, both good and bad. They ALL have a common destiny, and that is to die. Verse 5 and 6 speak of those who are physically dead and physically living. Pay special attention to verse 6. "Never again will they have part in ANYTHING under the sun.

Ecc. 9:1-6
1 So I reflected on all this and concluded that the righteous and the wise and what they do are in God's hands, but no man knows whether love or hate awaits him.
2 All share a common destiny--the righteous and the wicked, the good and the bad, the clean and the unclean, those who offer sacrifices and those who do not. As it is with the good man, so with the sinner; as it is with those who take oaths, so with those who are afraid to take them.
3 This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of men, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead. 4 Anyone who is among the living has hope--even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!
5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.

Can They Hear Us?
One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Rather than cutting and pasting from a catholic website, you may want to consider instead reading all of Rev. 4 & 5 in their entirety. These two chapters depict the great throne scene. 8

Verse 8 does not say that the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders offered up prayers in this vision. Instead it says they offered bowls of incense, which REPRESENT the prayers of the saints. There is no mediatorial function being performed by saints mentioned here. This does not say or even imply that the prayers of the saints in this passage are on behalf of those who are living. Nor does it say or imply that the saints in heaven are aware of the prayers of people on earth.

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

There is not a single word, NOTHING about intercession by saints in this passage. It is a total fabrication by the catholic church.
​

One Mediator
Another charge commonly levelled against asking the saints for their intercession is that this violates the sole mediatorship of Christ, which Paul discusses: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5).

But asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ’s mediatorship, as can be seen from considering the way in which Christ is a mediator. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us. Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because he is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses was the mediator (Greek mesitas) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:19–20).
Praying to the Saints | Catholic Answers​

I think you are very confused about Mary and the saints.

What part of ONE mediator don't you get? ONE means one. You contradict the word of God. Jesus paid a high price so that He could speak to God on our behalf. Without Jesus, not a one of us could approach the throne of our heavenly Father. This is why we pray in the name of Jesus. Without Jesus, God could not hear our prayers. No human could ever function as mediator.

You are so dug into catholic teaching and tradition that you are blinded to the simple truths of the Bible.

 

[katiemygirl]

="Carlita, post: 4168170, member: 55631"]Thank you. We do differ here. I believe spirits who've passed are very active in this life on earth.

Carlita, you have two choices. You can base your faith on what you think and personally experience, or you can base your faith on the word of God. Here is what God's word says on the subject. It tells how we all have a common destiny, which is death. It also tells us that the dead will never again have any part in anything under the sun.

Ecc. 9:1-6
1 So I reflected on all this and concluded that the righteous and the wise and what they do are in God's hands, but no man knows whether love or hate awaits him.
2 All share a common destiny--the righteous and the wicked, the good and the bad, the clean and the unclean, those who offer sacrifices and those who do not. As it is with the good man, so with the sinner; as it is with those who take oaths, so with those who are afraid to take them.
3 This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of men, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead. 4 Anyone who is among the living has hope--even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!
5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.

When someone passes, that puts a wall in not only getting to know family but even more so, it tears a part little by little where we come from. I see it happening slowly (either that, or its just my getting older ) and how to deal with it is tough. I know it sounds different to talk to deceased relatives; but, I never saw it that way. I never saw the difference in who they are by whether or not they are present in their physical bodies.

There is nothing wrong with us talking to our deceased loved ones. People do it all the time. It helps us to feel close to them, and it brings us comfort. However, this is not the same as praying to them, asking them to intercede for us on our behalf. God's word tells us the dead have no part in what goes on under the sun. Not just that, but there is only ONE mediator, and that is Jesus. He shed His blood so that He could talk to God on our behalf. There is no human who can approach the throne of God on His own. Only the perfect Jesus can do that.

Mary's ascension is somewhat new and is not in scripture. Her sinlessness was also new (as in not put into the Church tradition until mid 1970s or 80s) and is not in scripture.

I'm glad you recognize that this is not in Scripture. This did make many people uncomfortable, as it should have. It is a false teaching.

I know Catholicism is not sola scriptura. A lot of teachings are not in the Bible; and, they are based on the Bible. I believe anti-Catholics have to accept that fact. This does not make Catholicism non Christian. The Church had a big role on what was considered inspired to be part of the Bible. So, I guess you can say, they defined Christianity (Orthodox Catholic).

Regardless of the good they may have done in the past, it will not erase their false teaching. When you have some free time, read Jesus' letters to the seven churches in Revelation. The church at Pergamum was tolerating false teachers. Jesus said if they didn't change their ways,He would make war on them. Jesus hates false teaching.

Christians being divine is just saying that Christians have the Holy Spirit in them; they have part of the Father in them because of Christ. So, like Christ shared in His Father's divinity; so, Christian's share in Christ's divinity.

The Bible does say that the Holy Spirit indwells Christians. It also says that christians are in Christ. However, there is not one verse in the entire Bible that says christians are divine.

Carlita, I know you are a good person. Your love of family and sincerity shine through in your posts.

As for me, I was once caught up in the teachings of men. Then I discovered how those teachings contradicted God's word. They could not be found in the Bible. Now, I don't go beyond what is written. I trust that God has given me, and all of us, everything we need to know about salvation and living a good christian life pleasing to God. I do not go outside of God's word ever.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I have a question. How does the Bible describe the word "dead"? Does it say somewhere that eventually people in hell will no longer exist?

I know the Bible refers repeatedly to the spiritually dead who will not inherit the kingdom of God. I see no where in the eternal torment or eternal life that there is a concept of just not existing--death.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You have my whole undivided attention now since I'm not really doing anything...

-We differ here...spirits who have passed on are very active on this life on earth.

Carlita, you have two choices. You can base your faith on what you think and personally experience, or you can base your faith on the word of God. Here is what God's word says on the subject. It tells how we all have a common destiny, which is death. It also tells us that the dead will never again have any part in anything under the sun.

Remember, we believe in different faiths. Both of us could be wrong. In this case, I only have two choices--one to build a relationship with my family (my roots regardless of their living now or in the past) or I can forget about my roots and have no foundation in my life. I do not express and believe in God the same way Christians do. I don't even see "Him" that way. I understand what you're saying; and, as a Christian, it applies to your life. It does not apply to mine.

There is nothing wrong with us talking to our deceased loved ones. People do it all the time. It helps us to feel close to them, and it brings us comfort. However, this is not the same as praying to them, asking them to intercede for us on our behalf.

Because I communicate with my deceased relatives, I can ask them to help me know God the way they knew Him (intercede for me on my behalf). It is the same example of the dialogue example I gave you earlier. It is not wrong to ask someone else to pray for you if you find it hard to pray yourself. What God of scripture is saying, people are praying to people as if they were God or Jesus; according to the Bible, that is wrong. Catholicism does not teach to pray to the Saints as if they were God. Those that do, in my humble opinion, are not following the teachings of the Church and scripture.

Background: I practice Ancestral Veneration as a religion of its own, among other things. I see the source or foundation in my life through, and not limited to, my ancestors and family (both religious family, kin, and blood-related). We have spirits holding us all together, watching over us as family. I learn about others and how I relate to life, people, are faith etc through who I am as a person (which we all do). You do this through God. I do this through my ancestors.

I'm glad you recognize that this is not in Scripture. This did make many people uncomfortable, as it should have. It is a false teaching.

I do recognize this teaching that is based on the Bible. It's not false. It is different than what many anti-catholic protestants believe in. However, we all have different interpretations of scripture--my interpretation (what I get from it) and what you get from it does not mean I am wrong and you are right (and visa versus).

There is no referee in this situation. That is why it's a personal relationship with God.

Regardless of the good they may have done in the past, it will not erase their false teaching. When you have some free time, read Jesus' letters to the seven churches in Revelation. The church at Pergamum was tolerating false teachers. Jesus said if they didn't change their ways,He would make war on them. Jesus hates false teaching.

I read Revelations years ago. I don't have use to read them now since it is very difficult to grasp the understanding of the golden roads, and pearly gates, and so forth. Also, my interpretation would be crude because unlike the gospels, it isn't to the point.

Also, from studying the Bible and Catechism, I do not see false teachings in Catholicism. It is not for everyone. It is deeply embedded in devotion and tradition of the Church. Protestants can tap dance around the Church's teachings, but the Church will always stand firm that the members do believe Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior, they do repent of their sins to be forgiven and keep that state of union with Christ, they do confirm their vows to their Savior, and they do always (or should at least) keep mindful of the sins they made and ask God for forgiveness of the ones they did make. These are the sacraments of the Church. Anything outside these sacraments do not make a Catholic less of a Christian.

The Bible does say that the Holy Spirit indwells Christians. It also says that christians are in Christ. However, there is not one verse in the entire Bible that says christians are divine.

I know. I see being divine as being part of God. Christ is a part of Christians... they share in His Divinity (which is in scripture somewhere) just as He shares in His Father's divinity.

In other words, the divinity is Christ alone. Christians are sharing in it (by the Holy Spirit) to unite with the Father. Being Christ is sharing in the divinity of Christ--hence why it is a relation-ship with Him.That's what I meant.
[/QUOTE]

Carlita, I know you are a good person. Your love of family and sincerity shine through in your posts.

As for me, I was once caught up in the teachings of men. Then I discovered how those teachings contradicted God's word. They could not be found in the Bible. Now, I don't go beyond what is written. I trust that God has given me, and all of us, everything we need to know about salvation and living a good christian life pleasing to God. I do not go outside of God's word ever.

Thank you. I appreciate that.

Here is my opinion on what you said. Please don't take it as an offense.

When you are a part of the Church, you are a part of Scripture. You are part of Christ's Body not man. Once you start seeing outside of the Church (Outside of Christ and scripture), you compare and contrast "what is the true teaching; what does scripture say; and so forth" you forget that the teachings are not just in scripture, they are also in Christ's Body too.

In Acts, the gentiles didn't shove the apostles aside (as protestants are doing with priests) and say "hand me the Hebrew scriptures instead" (or Bible), they listened to the apostles as well as kept their traditions (Paul said keep your traditions). It is a combination of how one devotes oneself to Christ with the Body and with Christ Himself. There is no Christ without His Body. (and yes, that is in scripture-where there is more than one, I am there)

Christianity is not a solitary faith. Regardless the denomination, Christ wants Christians to be together. The Catholic Church mirrors His teachings just as Baptist, Lutheran, and Pentecostals do.

Where was I,

I have never been a Bible Only person even if I returned to the Church. If everything Christ said about life is in the Bible, a lot of things would not exist. Its best the read the Bible in context. I could never follow the Bible if I did literal only because many of my issues are not in the Bible. Gosh, if everything about us and life was in the Bible, that book would be pretty thick.

God could not have put all about life in the Bible. So, to say you will not believe in anything unless it's literally in the Bible confuses me....you're taking a lot about what God taught in your life out the window because it is not written in the leather bound book you own.

I don't understand that at all. Though, I had this discussion with another person in RF... so I don't want to re-invent the wheel.

 

[jtartar]

He was claiming to be the (special human) Messiah, - spoken of by Abraham, and through the Line of David.

The one whom was to bring about the end and Final Judgment.

*

Ingledsva,
The reason the ideas put forth in the terms Theotokos, and Ave Maria, are not correct is; most people who use these terms are praying to Mary, believing that she is the mother of THE God, which she is not.
It is true that Jesus is a god, but not The Almighty God, whose name is, in English, Jehovah. Even though the Bible says that Jesus is a mighty god, Isa 9:6, Jesus is here called El Ghibbor, not El Shaddai, which means The Almighty God, Jehovah in English, and YHWH in Hebrew.
Christians do not use these terms because they are easily used wrongly, because it is to The Almighty God only, that we should pray, Matt 4: 10, Ex 20:2-7.

 

[katiemygirl]

You have my whole undivided attention now since I'm not really doing anything...

-We differ here...spirits who have passed on are very active on this life on earth.


Remember, we believe in different faiths. Both of us could be wrong. In this case, I only have two choices--one to build a relationship with my family (my roots regardless of their living now or in the past) or I can forget about my roots and have no foundation in my life. I do not express and believe in God the same way Christians do. I don't even see "Him" that way. I understand what you're saying; and, as a Christian, it applies to your life. It does not apply to mine.

Because I communicate with my deceased relatives, I can ask them to help me know God the way they knew Him (intercede for me on my behalf). It is the same example of the dialogue example I gave you earlier. It is not wrong to ask someone else to pray for you if you find it hard to pray yourself. What God of scripture is saying, people are praying to people as if they were God or Jesus; according to the Bible, that is wrong. Catholicism does not teach to pray to the Saints as if they were God. Those that do, in my humble opinion, are not following the teachings of the Church and scripture.

Background: I practice Ancestral Veneration as a religion of its own, among other things. I see the source or foundation in my life through, and not limited to, my ancestors and family (both religious family, kin, and blood-related). We have spirits holding us all together, watching over us as family. I learn about others and how I relate to life, people, are faith etc through who I am as a person (which we all do). You do this through God. I do this through my ancestors.

I do recognize this teaching that is based on the Bible. It's not false. It is different than what many anti-catholic protestants believe in. However, we all have different interpretations of scripture--my interpretation (what I get from it) and what you get from it does not mean I am wrong and you are right (and visa versus).

There is no referee in this situation. That is why it's a personal relationship with God.

I read Revelations years ago. I don't have use to read them now since it is very difficult to grasp the understanding of the golden roads, and pearly gates, and so forth. Also, my interpretation would be crude because unlike the gospels, it isn't to the point.

Also, from studying the Bible and Catechism, I do not see false teachings in Catholicism. It is not for everyone. It is deeply embedded in devotion and tradition of the Church. Protestants can tap dance around the Church's teachings, but the Church will always stand firm that the members do believe Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior, they do repent of their sins to be forgiven and keep that state of union with Christ, they do confirm their vows to their Savior, and they do always (or should at least) keep mindful of the sins they made and ask God for forgiveness of the ones they did make. These are the sacraments of the Church. Anything outside these sacraments do not make a Catholic less of a Christian.

I know. I see being divine as being part of God. Christ is a part of Christians... they share in His Divinity (which is in scripture somewhere) just as He shares in His Father's divinity.

In other words, the divinity is Christ alone. Christians are sharing in it (by the Holy Spirit) to unite with the Father. Being Christ is sharing in the divinity of Christ--hence why it is a relation-ship with Him.That's what I meant.

Thank you. I appreciate that.

Here is my opinion on what you said. Please don't take it as an offense.

When you are a part of the Church, you are a part of Scripture. You are part of Christ's Body not man. Once you start seeing outside of the Church (Outside of Christ and scripture), you compare and contrast "what is the true teaching; what does scripture say; and so forth" you forget that the teachings are not just in scripture, they are also in Christ's Body too.

In Acts, the gentiles didn't shove the apostles aside (as protestants are doing with priests) and say "hand me the Hebrew scriptures instead" (or Bible), they listened to the apostles as well as kept their traditions (Paul said keep your traditions). It is a combination of how one devotes oneself to Christ with the Body and with Christ Himself. There is no Christ without His Body. (and yes, that is in scripture-where there is more than one, I am there)

Christianity is not a solitary faith. Regardless the denomination, Christ wants Christians to be together. The Catholic Church mirrors His teachings just as Baptist, Lutheran, and Pentecostals do.

Where was I,

I have never been a Bible Only person even if I returned to the Church. If everything Christ said about life is in the Bible, a lot of things would not exist. Its best the read the Bible in context. I could never follow the Bible if I did literal only because many of my issues are not in the Bible. Gosh, if everything about us and life was in the Bible, that book would be pretty thick.

God could not have put all about life in the Bible. So, to say you will not believe in anything unless it's literally in the Bible confuses me....you're taking a lot about what God taught in your life out the window because it is not written in the leather bound book you own.

I don't understand that at all. Though, I had this discussion with another person in RF... so I don't want to re-invent the wheel.[/QUOTE]
Thank you Carlita for taking the time to explain your position. I appreciate that. I assumed that when you said you left the catholic church, you joined some non denominational christian group. I see I was very wrong about that. I apologize for my assumption. Yes, it seems we are about as far removed in our beliefs as two people can be. I wish you the best, my friend. Take care.

 

[chlotilde]

It is very misleading. Mary was Jesus' human Mother, not his godly Mother.

The RCC has elevated Mary to divine status. This is wrong!

woah...when did that happen?
Catholics do not believe Mary is divine, and the church has never said she is. If you believe so, it is a misunderstanding on your part.